Zone1 Why did Jesus come to earth?

[Carl in Michigan]

who Jesus?....god was the creator of my universe...

My God is CAPITAL "G". It matters

 

[Harry Dresden]

You cannot be an "alien" in your own home. He created this world

carl did a human create all this?....

 

[Carl in Michigan]

carl did a human create all this?....

A Iittle early to be drinking, don't you think

 

[Carl in Michigan]

who Jesus?....god was the creator of my universe...

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

[Harry Dresden]

A Iittle early to be drinking, don't you think

cant answer the question carl or you dont want to...which is it?..

 

[Harry Dresden]

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

was he a human carl or not?...

 

[cnm]

Where it is a bad fit is I cannot think of a mythological god that said he was going away so he was going to appoint an earthly human to take over his duties.

The various Sun Gods had that Easter/Christmas/seasonal vibe, don't you think?

 

[hadit]

Both the Bible and early Church Fathers wrote about Peter's authority and leadership in the Church. These can be found online, if you care about the matter. Most non-Catholics do not, adopting a policy of that was then and this is now, and are willing to let traditions be bygones. The Catholic faith took early Church teachings and traditions to heart. Others feel those traditions were meant for early Church times, not modern church times.

Yes, he had authority and leadership. He did not, however, exalt himself to the position of supreme leader, aka Pope.

 

[crossbody]

1. Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets. This is the chief purpose of Jesus' earthly ministry.
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(Matthew 5:17)

2. Jesus came to take away the sins of the world.
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29)

3. Jesus came to divide. (Believes from Unbelievers)
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: (Luke 12:51)

4. Jesus came to save sinners
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. (1 Timothy 1:15)

5. Jesus came to set the captives free
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. (Luke 4:18-19)

6. Jesus came for the Jews
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 15:24)

Due to the blindness of the Jews amidst their unbelief, Jesus turned to the Gentiles to set up his Church with. Jesus initially sent both Peter then Paul to the help bring in the Gentiles with Paul being the foundational light unto the Gentiles, and Peter the forerunner like John the Baptist was for Jesus.

7. Jesus came to destroy all the works of the devil.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(1 John 3:8)

 

[Meriweather]

The first thing that comes to mind is the following:

Matthew 23:9
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

Pope means father. And many priests in the Catholic church are called father.

Study the entire Chapter of Matthew 23. Jesus is speaking about Pharisees and Rabbis who were trying to become known for their own interpretation/teaching of points in Judaism. They wanted to become known as the Father of a certain branch of Judaism (there were many at the time of Jesus). "Father" was a popular title to become known as when their interpretation became widely accepted by some.

In English, their are over twenty definitions for father. It was the same in Hebrew/Aramaic. Actually, the same is true for the word 'call', which often meant 'proclaim'.

What do other passages say about Father. In one 1 Corinthians Paul raises these points. 1 Corinthians 1:12 gives quite a slap down for people saying "‘I am for Paul,’ ‘I am for Apollos,’ ‘I am for Cephas’". (Think about more modern times: People saying "I am for Luther, I am for Calvin, I am for Wesley, I am for Joseph Smith.")

Move along to several verses later in 1 Corinthians. Let's read what Paul says in 4:15:

Even if you should have countless guides to Christ, yet you do not have many fathers, for I became your father in Christ Jesus through the gospel.

No Catholic priest--or Pope--became the Father/Author of any new teaching or interpretation of scripture. (Can the same be said of Joseph Smith?)

Jesus said his own teaching was not of himself, but from God. God is the Father (the author) of the Gospel proclaimed by his Son, Jesus Christ. Priests are merely spiritual guides ((fathers/teachers) through the Gospel in Christ Jesus (alone) just as the early Apostles were.

Catholics do not promote the the teachings of Father Smith because Father Smith only guides parishioners through the Bible and the teachings of Jesus Christ. Mormons also promote the teachings of Joseph Smith, which is why the LDS faith differs from all other Christian teachings.

 

[BreezeWood]

6. Jesus came for the Jews
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 15:24)

jesus, the 1st century events are the repudiation of judaism - false commandments hereditary idolatry religion of apartheid false heavenly personifications et al for the original heavenly goal of self determination and judgment for admission to the everlasting.

 

[Meriweather]

Yes, he had authority and leadership. He did not, however, exalt himself to the position of supreme leader, aka Pope.

Ah, but the Pope's position is not a position of "supreme leader" and never was. Each Pope follows in Peter's footsteps as the servant of the servants of God--who is leader supreme. Non-Catholics seem to want to view the Pope much differently than Catholics do. Why the need to change the position into something other than what it is? The Pope is a steward. Nothing more. Do you have a practice of condemning other stewards? If not, then why condemn a pope?

 

[Meriweather]

1. Jesus came to fulfill the law and the prophets. This is the chief purpose of Jesus' earthly ministry.
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
(Matthew 5:17)

2. Jesus came to take away the sins of the world.
The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (John 1:29)

3. Jesus came to divide. (Believes from Unbelievers)
Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division: (Luke 12:51)

4. Jesus came to save sinners
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. (1 Timothy 1:15)

5. Jesus came to set the captives free
The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. (Luke 4:18-19)

6. Jesus came for the Jews
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matthew 15:24)

Due to the blindness of the Jews amidst their unbelief, Jesus turned to the Gentiles to set up his Church with. Jesus initially sent both Peter then Paul to the help bring in the Gentiles with Paul being the foundational light unto the Gentiles, and Peter the forerunner like John the Baptist was for Jesus.

7. Jesus came to destroy all the works of the devil.
He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
(1 John 3:8)

Very good. But why did you leave out that Jesus came to build his Church?

 

[hadit]

Ah, but the Pope's position is not a position of "supreme leader" and never was.

Yet there is no other position on earth to which the Catholic Church grants equal or more authority.

Each Pope follows in Peter's footsteps as the servant of the servants of God--who is leader supreme.

God is the supreme leader, no doubt. There is no one even equal to Him, much less of higher status, as Lucifer found out. We're talking about earthly authority.

Non-Catholics seem to want to view the Pope much differently than Catholics do. Why the need to change the position into something other than what it is? The Pope is a steward. Nothing more.

Yet the Church grants him more authority than any other person on the face of the earth. Peter did not have that much authority, as he was one of the Apostles, not the greatest among them. They did not all defer to him in all matters like the Catholic Church authority structure does to the Pope. If you disagree, who on earth has more or equal authority in the Catholic Church than does the Pope?

Do you have a practice of condemning other stewards? If not, then why condemn a pope?

Because the office vests so much authority and responsibility in one fallible man. Millions upon millions of Catholics wait breathlessly to hear from any new Pope and no cardinal, bishop or priest dares to deviate from his proclamations or face dire consequences.

 

[Meriweather]

Yet there is no other position on earth to which the Catholic Church grants equal or more authority.

What specific authority do you see the pope exercising?

 

[Meriweather]

Yet the Church grants him more authority than any other person on the face of the earth. Peter did not have that much authority, as he was one of the Apostles, not the greatest among them. They did not all defer to him in all matters like the Catholic Church authority structure does to the Pope. If you disagree, who on earth has more or equal authority in the Catholic Church than does the Pope?

I'm not sure you understand how papal authority works. It starts with the people in the Pews. If local people and priests cannot resolve the issue it goes to the diocese and the bishop. People from the pews are still involved. If the issue cannot be resolved at the diocesan level, it goes to the archdiocese. If it cannot be resolved at this issue, it moves on to all the cardinals to be discussed in Rome. All this takes time. Decades. Sometimes centuries. If the cardinals cannot come to a decision, only then it goes to the Pope to make the decision for the entire Church.

Let's pause here. It seems in Protestant churches, if there is an issue the people disagree with, simple. Simply split up and start a new church, each going their own way.

Catholics choose to remain together (Jesus prayed we would remain one). When it is up to the Pope to decide the issue (in the course of two thousand years, there have been three issues a pope has had to decide), then such a (ex cathedra) decision is permanent. In other words, the next pope cannot change it. The Church goes on as one.

 

[Meriweather]

Because the office vests so much authority and responsibility in one fallible man. Millions upon millions of Catholics wait breathlessly to hear from any new Pope and no cardinal, bishop or priest dares to deviate from his proclamations or face dire consequences.

In all of Church history, there have only been two or three decisions (or "proclamations" if you will) that all Catholics must heed. We celebrate Mary's own immaculate conception, Mary's assumption into heaven, and acknowledge Mary as Queen in heaven. We recognize the Catholic position on artificial means of birth control, which falls under the Biblical position that life is a gift from God. That's it. What dire consequences have you seen come into play over those decisions?

 

[hadit]

What specific authority do you see the pope exercising?

He sets policy for the entire Church, does he not?

Just for one example, if the Pope condemns a US president's policy on illegal immigration, do priests come out publicly in support of that policy? If the Pope states that Catholic Churches are to welcome illegal immigrants and shelter them from the government, do priests instead turn in illegal immigrants found in their congregations? I say a priest does not dare to conflict with the Pope's proclamation, no matter his own beliefs on the subject.

A different Pope can take a different approach and say illegal immigrants should be identified to the government, and again, priests would not dare to shelter them instead.

The Pope has authority to set Church policy, and we see this with every new Pope. The concern worldwide is, "What is he going to do about <insert political issue of the day here>? Is he going to be conservative or liberal? That concern is expressly because he has so much authority over the Catholic Church. Untold millions of Catholics are going to follow whatever he says because they believe he has that authority.

What proclamations can he make (short of outright anti-Biblical heresy that would get him kicked out of office) that will not be obeyed?

 

[hadit]

I'm not sure you understand how papal authority works. It starts with the people in the Pews. If local people and priests cannot resolve the issue it goes to the diocese and the bishop. People from the pews are still involved. If the issue cannot be resolved at the diocesan level, it goes to the archdiocese. If it cannot be resolved at this issue, it moves on to all the cardinals to be discussed in Rome. All this takes time. Decades. Sometimes centuries. If the cardinals cannot come to a decision, only then it goes to the Pope to make the decision for the entire Church.

I'm not talking about a local issue, I'm talking about the Pope's views on subjects. Whenever a new Pope is chosen, the speculation around the world is will he be a hardliner or laid back? What issues will he champion and what issues will he put on the back burner? He leads the Church and sets policy.

Let's pause here. It seems in Protestant churches, if there is an issue the people disagree with, simple. Simply split up and start a new church, each going their own way.

Why do you insist on mischaracterizing Protestant Churches? You don't like it when I make blanket statements about Catholic Churches that offend you, so don't do it about Churches you really don't understand. Protestant denominations lay out their policies on various issues and people are free to evaluate those policies. We are free to acknowledge that a given policy may have been relevant when it was first laid down but may not be as relevant today. Conservative Mennonites in the time when I was a child, for one example, opposed musical instruments in church. Why? For two reasons:

1. Menno Simons objected to the expensive, lavish orchestras and instrumentation that were being used in the Catholic Churches of his day, and he called for a simple lifestyle lived quietly and peacefully without ornamentation or fanfare.
2. Early Mennonites had to meet quietly in secret for fear of persecution, so eschewed instruments.

When I was a child, this policy was in force and was applied to the local group of Churches, over which my grandfather was a Bishop. Not all agreed with the policy, but all followed it. Thus, when a new church was planted, they relaxed that policy for the new congregation because they wanted to be more attractive to the community, which was not trained to sing acapella from a hymn book with nothing more than a pitch pipe played before the song and felt left out during worship. There was discussion and voting, with no need for a split, and it did not even rise above the local congregation level. I am not aware that the denomination even got involved.

Catholics choose to remain together (Jesus prayed we would remain one).

Yet you separate yourselves from other Christians, who are praying that ALL believers would truly be one instead of insisting that "You can't be one with us unless you become a <fill in preferred denomination here>".

When it is up to the Pope to decide the issue (in the course of two thousand years, there have been three issues a pope has had to decide), then such a (ex cathedra) decision is permanent. In other words, the next pope cannot change it. The Church goes on as one.

As I've pointed out, however, the Pope exercises a LOT of authority over Church direction and policy. I'm not talking about settling an issue, I'm talking about how the Church follows his every word because untold millions of Catholics will follow what he says, many without batting an eyelash.

No one man should have that much authority.

 

[Meriweather]

He sets policy for the entire Church, does he not?

No.