That still does not say Jesus put Peter in charge of the Church. If He wanted to do that, He would have ensured the rest of the Apostles knew that was the case. Note that it was Peter who opened the Kingdom to the Gentiles, even though he had to be rebuked by Paul when he wanted to make them obey the Mosaic Law. IOW, he was far from infallible. The early church did not recognize Peter as Pope.
Zone1 Why did Jesus come to earth?
- Thread starter Meriweather
- Start date
Joseph Smith was not a member of any particular church. There were many in the vicinity arguing for their church but Joseph Smith's history tells us he didn't join any of them (see Joseph Smith - History 1). You interpret the word "prevail" much differently than I do. If two teams are competing for a win, then the team that prevails is the one who wins in the end of the competition. Each team might gain the upper hand during the competition but the one who prevails is the one who wins in the end. To me, just because the church fell into a state of apostasy does not mean they prevailed in the overall battle. Satan didn't prevail since God was able to restore his church again. The prophet Amos predicted that the church would fall away into a state of apostacy and you wouldn't be able to find the truth anywhere upon the earth for a time.
Amos 8:11-12
11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it.
This did not constitute that Satan prevailed against God. Yes Satan at times has gained an upper hand but in the end God will prevail.
The LDS position is that for a time Satan gains an advantage at times but in the end God will prevail. The Apostle Peter spoke of a time of restitution of all things when Jesus would again be sent to us and restore all things.
Acts 3:19-21
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Meriweather
Not all who wander are lost
- Oct 21, 2014
- 22,165
- 4,892
- 165
- Thread starter
- #103
Both the Bible and early Church Fathers wrote about Peter's authority and leadership in the Church. These can be found online, if you care about the matter. Most non-Catholics do not, adopting a policy of that was then and this is now, and are willing to let traditions be bygones. The Catholic faith took early Church teachings and traditions to heart. Others feel those traditions were meant for early Church times, not modern church times.
Meriweather
Not all who wander are lost
- Oct 21, 2014
- 22,165
- 4,892
- 165
- Thread starter
- #104
Precisely, what apostasy was this that prevailed against the Church?
No need. I have read every word many times.
When Jesus said, "The kingdom of heaven is like hidden treasure lying buried in a field. The man who found it BURIED IT AGAIN." Mat 13:44, Jesus was clearly revealing that the key to understanding scripture is knowing that the words and subjects are not necessarily directly connected to the literal meaning of the words used.
Thats why he said "If you look and look and keep on looking you will find it". He was saying that the treasures of the kingdom of heaven can only be discovered by digging deeply, THINKING DEEPLY. Not superficially, literally.
If you believe that by saying, "eat my flesh" Jesus was talking about handing out pieces of bread, then why aren't you feeding fodder to sheep, farm animals, because Jesus commanded Peter to "feed my sheep."?
Do you think Jesus was telling Peter to hand out bread to his followers, sheep, or to feed them his teaching? Even after he told them all in plain language, "Till now I have been using figures of speech."? John 16:25
Take your time.....
Last edited:
BreezeWood
VIP Member
- Oct 26, 2011
- 21,120
- 1,839
- 85
where are your links ...
- an etching of jesus stone or clay likeness anything of their belongings - they no more exist than any contemporary storytelling sanctioned or not as would be at best secondary to the individual themself.
Meriweather
Not all who wander are lost
- Oct 21, 2014
- 22,165
- 4,892
- 165
- Thread starter
- #108
Look for primary sources. And, yes, you can find primary sources quoted, copied online.
BreezeWood
VIP Member
- Oct 26, 2011
- 21,120
- 1,839
- 85
is there a photo of jesus ...
Meriweather
Not all who wander are lost
- Oct 21, 2014
- 22,165
- 4,892
- 165
- Thread starter
- #110
Look at the words I highlighted in your post. Jesus wasn't speaking of scripture. He was speaking of the kingdom of heaven.
Where do you think the treasures of the kingdom of heaven were buried and hidden? I will do this much for you.
Every contradiction in the Bible and every fantastical story in scripture that contradicts what is well known to be true about reality, every story that offends the sensibilities of a child, every depiction of the dead coming out of their graves or the blind receiving their sight or those crippled (by fear) being healed is like a giant red X on a treasure map marking the exact place where something of great value was deliberately buried and hidden.
If you look and look and keep on looking you will find it. If you don't look and look and keep on looking you never will.
Your head is full of iniquitous superstitious archaic lore. Now you have a lot of work to do. On your brain. So do it.
Meriweather
Not all who wander are lost
- Oct 21, 2014
- 22,165
- 4,892
- 165
- Thread starter
- #112
You claim to know what is in the heads of others, and what others are finding when they look deep into scripture? How are you able to do this via posts on the internet?
What I know is that on internet forums, often some people don't fully understand what I am trying to convey. Therefore, I try make the effort to recognize that it is likely neither do I fully understand the points they are working hard to present.
KnoWhy #695 | October 17, 2023
What Does the New Testament Teach about the Great Apostasy?
Post contributed byScripture Central
“Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.” 2 Thessalonians 2:3
The Know
In 1820, as Joseph Smith prayed in the Sacred Grove, he saw God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ. Joseph, who had been struggling to know where he might find the true church, asked the divine personages “which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join” (Joseph Smith—History 1:18). The answer Joseph received came as a shock to him and would begin his preparation as a prophet: “I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all wrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight” (Joseph Smith—History 1:19). Because of this, Joseph Smith would be called of God to restore His Church on the earth.The belief in the Great Apostasy is central to Latter-day Saint teachings—that is, that there was an actual falling away from the gospel as originally taught by Jesus Christ and His Apostles, therefore necessitating a restoration. While this may appear to be a bold claim, closer review of the New Testament shows that the Apostles knew of the forthcoming Apostasy and warned the Church extensively against the false teachers that would come in its wake.
The word apostasy comes from the Greek word apostasia, which literally means “rebellion” and in the New Testament connotes a people rebelling from God.1 However, the meaning of this word is unfortunately often masked in translations into English. For example, the King James Version of 2 Thessalonians 2:3 translates apostasia as “falling away”: “Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.”2 While not always clear in translations of the Bible, the connotation of apostasy as a rebellion against God is clearly described in the Book of Mormon (see 3 Nephi 6:18; 4 Nephi 1:38).
Noel B. Reynolds has noted that in light of the evidence from the New Testament and based on the meaning of apostasy as “rebellion,” it is a myth that “the apostasy happened because of outside persecution.”3 Rather, the New Testament consistently describes the forthcoming Apostasy as an internal rebellion by members of the early Church against God and His chosen leaders—a rebellion that became more and more prominent as the Apostles wrote earnestly in hopes that the congregations might repent.4
For example, when Paul was returning to Jerusalem from his third missionary journey, he warned the leaders of Ephesus, “After my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them” (Acts 20:29–30). While the Ephesian Saints were no stranger to persecution from the Greco-Roman world (see Acts 19:24–41), of much greater concern to Paul was that the Ephesian Saints remain loyal to the Lord and their covenants. Moreover, much of Paul’s epistles were written in part to correct false beliefs and attitudes that were arising in the various churches, just as he had foretold.5
Shortly before he was executed under Nero’s command, Paul warned Timothy that the prophesied rebellion was then at hand, as many churches Paul established had forsaken him and the gospel: “All they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes” (2 Timothy 1:15). This rebellion even reached some of Paul’s most trusted missionary companions: “Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. Only Luke is with me” (2 Timothy 4:10–11).
Unfortunately, this rebellion against the gospel would only grow worse, for “the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables” (2 Timothy 4:3–4). Prophecies regarding the apostasy of the New Testament Church were even made by Jesus Christ Himself, such as in the parable of the wheat and the tares,6 and this no doubt influenced how His Apostles shaped their messages.7
The concept of apostasy as a rebellion against the Lord has deep roots in Jewish and Christian tradition. Indeed, as James E. Faulconer has observed, both “faithfulness to God and apostasy from him are often spoken of in terms of covenant [throughout the Old Testament]. To be faithful is to keep covenant; to apostatize is to break covenant.”8 Furthermore, in the Greek Septuagint the word apostasia is used to describe idolatry and forsaking the Lord. Similarly, the same word is used to describe divorce, especially when marriage was used as a metaphor for God’s covenant with Israel. Early Christian texts similarly describe the Apostasy as a corruption of priesthood leaders and a rejection of ordinances and covenants.9 As such, apostasy marks the loss of covenants and priesthood authority that can be restored only through a prophet of God.
The Why
While it is evident that the New Testament Apostles knew and warned others about the impending Apostasy, they knew that that was not the end of the story. As Peter told the Saints in Jerusalem, “the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began,” would come (Acts 3:21). This restitution of all things was begun by God the Father and Jesus Christ through the Prophet Joseph Smith.As Faulconer explained, “We cannot understand what apostasy means for New Testament Christians without understanding that it included the loss of the temple and, so, of the priesthood, for ultimately the rebellion of apostasy involves severing one’s covenant relation to God, a relation manifest through the priesthood, through standing in the presence of God.”10 A serious part of the Restoration entailed restoring covenants and temples, thereby providing a corrective course to this rebellion that corrupted many early Christian doctrines and beliefs. Covenants are essential to the gospel of Jesus Christ, and they allow us to grow closer to our Savior and become more like Him.
Further Reading
James E. Faulconer, “The Concept of the Apostasy in the New Testament,” in Early Christians in Disarray: Contemporary LDS Perspectives on the Christian Apostasy, ed. Noel B. Reynolds (Provo, UT: Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies, 2005), 133–162.
Noel B. Reynolds, “Appendix C: New Testament Evidences and Prophecies of Apostasy in the First-Century Church,” in Early Christians in Disarray, 355–369.
Kent P. Jackson, “New Testament Prophecies of Apostasy,” in Sperry Symposium Classics: The New Testament, ed. Frank F. Judd Jr. and Gaye Strathearn (Provo, UT: Religious Studies Center, Brigham Young University; Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book, 2006), 394–406.
Tad R. Callister, The Inevitable Apostasy and the Promised Restoration (Salt Lake City, UT: Deseret Book, 2006), 24–49.
A good book on the Great Apostasy is entitled, "The Great Apostasy" by James E. Talmage
Meriweather
Not all who wander are lost
- Oct 21, 2014
- 22,165
- 4,892
- 165
- Thread starter
- #114
No. I am not conversing with "Scripture Central". In a single sentence, you present the religious belief/teaching the Catholic Church renounced or abandoned. Be specific.
When the Apostles of the church were killed and many of the members were going against the church the church fell into apostacy. The Catholic Church was the outcome of an apostate Christian church. Is that clear enough for you? "Scriptural Central" is simply pointing out New Testament evidences that the church was falling into apostacy.
Meriweather
Not all who wander are lost
- Oct 21, 2014
- 22,165
- 4,892
- 165
- Thread starter
- #116
I asked for a specific belief/teaching of Christ the Church renounced. That's the definition of apostasy.
The first thing that comes to mind is the following:
Matthew 23:9
9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Pope means father. And many priests in the Catholic church are called father.
Carl in Michigan
Diamond Member
- Aug 15, 2016
- 64,667
- 49,514
- 3,615
He is the Creator of your universe
Harry Dresden
Only Adamantium Member
Carl in Michigan
Diamond Member
- Aug 15, 2016
- 64,667
- 49,514
- 3,615
You cannot be an "alien" in your own home. He created this world
Similar threads
- Poll
- Poll
New Topics
-
American Nationalism is whitecentric eventhough they claim its colorblind yes or no?- Started by Mortimer
- Replies: 0
-
Lebanese Maronite Catholic priest killed by Israeli tank fire in southern Lebanon- Started by Andrew_Jackson_FTW
- Replies: 2
-
-
-
