CDZ Why aren't we addressing the gun issue as a cultural problem?

[OldLady]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

What does that mean? Ever since the 1966 Texas clock tower shooter, alarm bells should have gone off. That particular guy had a brain tumor that in all probability led to his violence. So how could any measure been created to address that? Then or NOW? We need to restrict gun ownership to certified hunters, sportsmen collectors or the police. I don't know how we do that, since the NRA and gun lobbies pretty much have total control over the issue. Like the fox guarding the henhouse. How about we have a NATIONAL referendum on guns, and winner takes all? Since this is a democracy...

I don't think legislation like that is the answer. There are just too many guns. A psycho will be able to get his hands on a gun no matter what.

It seems to me to be smarter to address what is happening within our culture that is devaluing life, and I don't think identifying those things would be all that difficult. The problem is that everything is politicized and no one is willing to give a damn inch.
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If you want to address what is happening within our culture that devalues life, it seems to me that the first place to start is the abortion issue. I don't want to start an off-topic argument about it, but a country that legalizes abortion right up to birth is certainly not showing much in the way of valuing human life. For whatever reason, not just to save the mother's life or in cases of rape or incest.

But let me leave that issue and talk about something else: you only have to look at the rising suicide rates, opioid deaths, declining life expectancy, and, of course, the onslaught of mass shootings to see the country’s despair. A recent survey found that more than a fifth of Millennials say they have no friends — a poignant illustration of the loneliness crisis that probably has at least as much to do with mass shootings as white supremacy or video games. Young people, particularly males, are increasingly isolated and socially maladjusted. And that is a cultural problem. Consider:

For two years, we’ve been studying the life histories of mass shooters in the United States for a project funded by the National Institute of Justice, the research arm of the U.S. Department of Justice. We’ve built a database dating back to 1966 of every mass shooter who shot and killed four or more people in a public place, and every shooting incident at schools, workplaces, and places of worship since 1999. We’ve interviewed incarcerated perpetrators and their families, shooting survivors and first responders. We’ve read media and social media, manifestos, suicide notes, trial transcripts and medical records.


First, the vast majority of mass shooters in our study experienced early childhood trauma and exposure to violence at a young age. The nature of their exposure included parental suicide, physical or sexual abuse, neglect, domestic violence, and/or severe bullying. The trauma was often a precursor to mental health concerns, including depression, anxiety, thought disorders or suicidality.

Second, practically every mass shooter we studied had reached an identifiable crisis point in the weeks or months leading up to the shooting. They often had become angry and despondent because of a specific grievance. For workplace shooters, a change in job status was frequently the trigger. For shooters in other contexts, relationship rejection or loss often played a role. Such crises were, in many cases, communicated to others through a marked change in behavior, an expression of suicidal thoughts or plans, or specific threats of violence.

Third, most of the shooters had studied the actions of other shooters and sought validation for their motives. People in crisis have always existed. But in the age of 24-hour rolling news and social media, there are scripts to follow that promise notoriety in death. Societal fear and fascination with mass shootings partly drives the motivation to commit them. Hence, as we have seen in the last week, mass shootings tend to come in clusters. They are socially contagious. Perpetrators study other perpetrators and model their acts after previous shootings. Many are radicalized online in their search for validation from others that their will to murder is justified.

Fourth, the shooters all had the means to carry out their plans. Once someone decides life is no longer worth living and that murdering others would be a proper revenge, only means and opportunity stand in the way of another mass shooting. Is an appropriate shooting site accessible? Can the would-be shooter obtain firearms? In 80% of school shootings, perpetrators got their weapons from family members, according to our data. Workplace shooters tended to use handguns they legally owned. Other public shooters were more likely to acquire them illegally.
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We also need to, as a society, be more proactive. Most mass public shooters are suicidal, and their crises are often well known to others before the shooting occurs. The vast majority of mass shooters leak their plans ahead of time. People who see or sense something is wrong, however, may not always say something to someone owing to the absence of clear reporting protocols or fear of overreaction and unduly labeling a person as a potential threat. Proactive violence prevention starts with schools, colleges, churches and employers initiating conversations about mental health and establishing systems for identifying individuals in crisis, reporting concerns and reaching out — not with punitive measures but with resources and long-term intervention. Everyone should be trained to recognize the signs of a crisis.

Proactivity needs to extend also to the traumas in early life that are common to so many mass shooters. Those early exposures to violence need addressing when they happen with ready access to social services and high-quality, affordable mental health treatment in the community. School counselors and social workers, employee wellness programs, projects that teach resilience and social emotional learning, and policies and practices that decrease the stigma around mental illness will not just help prevent mass shootings, but will also help promote the social and emotional success of all Americans.

Op-Ed: We have studied every mass shooting since 1966. Here's what we've learned about the shooters

These proactive ideas aren't just for reducing mass shootings, but also suicides and other forms of murder or violence.

Good ideas there, Task. You always bring good thoughts to an argument.
- The accessibility of guns is a very short paragraph here, as opposed to all the others, but it is telling, imo. I don't doubt their findings, but I wonder about the statement that all but school and workplace shooters tend to get their guns illegally. The past several, at least since the vet who shot up the Florida airport, the shooter purchased his guns legally, iirc. If all the school shooter's families didn't have guns laying around the house, would the shooting have happened? I'm not sure, but it's a question. If the workplace shooters didn't have legally purchased guns sitting home in their nightstand, would they have shot up their coworkers? I don't know, but it is a question. Accessibility is certainly a factor, as they said.

Mental health awareness is critical as well. The suicidal/homicidal drive is certainly there in all the shootings.

 

[Mac1958]

Not sure how I can shut down opinion.

You're certainly free to disagree with anything I say.
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Statistics are not opinion, Mac.

You are saying that these shootings somehow show that culture devalues life...

when theres LESS murdering going on, than historically...

THATS a fact, your opinions dont supercede actual data and thats a BEAUTIFUL thing.

Outstanding!
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See how you are engaged based on hard data, and you run and dont do anything but obfuscate?

Thats what happens when you are brainwashed by hysterics, and also too dishonest to absorb actual data, actual facts...

Murder is DOWN, Mac.


DOWN.

And? Because you are so susceptible to 24/7 media and sensationalism...

YOU make threads wondering why its UP...and claiming it means life is DEVALUED.


Data doesnt care about your brainwash and delusions. Less people per-capita are murderers, than historically. We, our current culture, value life MORE.

And thats awesome, and thats empirical.


Your thread is based on the same old man feels as many old men have gotten throughout history. Culture changes and youre offended by your rigid sensibilities...that, and being manipulated too easily by a 24/7 news cycle, and your mind is polluted to living in upside-down world and with no spine or rational argument to present the logic.

That's great, thanks!
.

Glad to, Mods should shut the shit-show down because you dont engage your own thread in good faith, youre merely here for confirmation bias and whining as youve jimust, yet again, proven.

Fingers in your ears, now? Good...I'll say it again:

Per capita, Murder is down across the whole globe as compared historically.

Life's value is trending up, todays culture is far superior to whatever you seem to be pining for.

So in one post (#113) you whine that I somehow "shut down any dissenting opinion", and then (#122) you say the mods should shut the thread down.

I love this place.

I just toss the softballs up in the air, and you folks whack 'em over the fence for me.

I wish you would stop trolling my thread. There have been many interesting responses so far.
.

 

[OldLady]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

What does that mean? Ever since the 1966 Texas clock tower shooter, alarm bells should have gone off. That particular guy had a brain tumor that in all probability led to his violence. So how could any measure been created to address that? Then or NOW? We need to restrict gun ownership to certified hunters, sportsmen collectors or the police. I don't know how we do that, since the NRA and gun lobbies pretty much have total control over the issue. Like the fox guarding the henhouse. How about we have a NATIONAL referendum on guns, and winner takes all? Since this is a democracy...

I don't think legislation like that is the answer. There are just too many guns. A psycho will be able to get his hands on a gun no matter what.

It seems to me to be smarter to address what is happening within our culture that is devaluing life, and I don't think identifying those things would be all that difficult. The problem is that everything is politicized and no one is willing to give a damn inch.
.

We have to do BOTH Mac. Limit ownership of guns AND seriously address what is so broken in our culture. BOTH. A problem this complex does not have an either/or solution. It is everything we can think of all at once. Who cares which works--fling them all at the wall. I'll take anything I can get out of Congress right now because it will be a start.

Yes, as I said in the OP, we have to look at EVERYTHING. The problem is that there are so many guns already in circulation, and they're easy to access outside of any law.
.

No destination was ever reached without taking that first step. I do not think it will be easy but I'll be damned if I shake my head and walk away because it's hard. It is certainly not impossible. It will take a generation to make a difference, maybe, but we love the generation we have put on this earth to follow us, don't we? We can do it for them.

 

[Mac1958]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

What does that mean? Ever since the 1966 Texas clock tower shooter, alarm bells should have gone off. That particular guy had a brain tumor that in all probability led to his violence. So how could any measure been created to address that? Then or NOW? We need to restrict gun ownership to certified hunters, sportsmen collectors or the police. I don't know how we do that, since the NRA and gun lobbies pretty much have total control over the issue. Like the fox guarding the henhouse. How about we have a NATIONAL referendum on guns, and winner takes all? Since this is a democracy...

I don't think legislation like that is the answer. There are just too many guns. A psycho will be able to get his hands on a gun no matter what.

It seems to me to be smarter to address what is happening within our culture that is devaluing life, and I don't think identifying those things would be all that difficult. The problem is that everything is politicized and no one is willing to give a damn inch.
.

We have to do BOTH Mac. Limit ownership of guns AND seriously address what is so broken in our culture. BOTH. A problem this complex does not have an either/or solution. It is everything we can think of all at once. Who cares which works--fling them all at the wall. I'll take anything I can get out of Congress right now because it will be a start.

Yes, as I said in the OP, we have to look at EVERYTHING. The problem is that there are so many guns already in circulation, and they're easy to access outside of any law.
.

No destination was ever reached without taking that first step. I do not think it will be easy but I'll be damned if I shake my head and walk away because it's hard. It is certainly not impossible. It will take a generation to make a difference, maybe, but we love the generation we have put on this earth to follow us, don't we? We can do it for them.

We can at least get the ball rolling for them, but that would mean enough people have to communicate and collaborate and innovate NOW.

I remain hopeful, but I'm not holding my breath.
.

 

[mudwhistle]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

On one side you have people that you can't trust and on the other you have people who are constantly being attacked by those same people.
It's like Palestine and Israel.
Good luck trying to get them to work out a piece plan.

 

[Mac1958]

Outstanding!
.

See how you are engaged based on hard data, and you run and dont do anything but obfuscate?

Thats what happens when you are brainwashed by hysterics, and also too dishonest to absorb actual data, actual facts...

Murder is DOWN, Mac.


DOWN.

And? Because you are so susceptible to 24/7 media and sensationalism...

YOU make threads wondering why its UP...and claiming it means life is DEVALUED.


Data doesnt care about your brainwash and delusions. Less people per-capita are murderers, than historically. We, our current culture, value life MORE.

And thats awesome, and thats empirical.


Your thread is based on the same old man feels as many old men have gotten throughout history. Culture changes and youre offended by your rigid sensibilities...that, and being manipulated too easily by a 24/7 news cycle, and your mind is polluted to living in upside-down world and with no spine or rational argument to present the logic.

That's great, thanks!
.

Glad to, Mods should shut the shit-show down because you dont engage your own thread in good faith, youre merely here for confirmation bias and whining as youve jimust, yet again, proven.

Fingers in your ears, now? Good...I'll say it again:

Per capita, Murder is down across the whole globe as compared historically.

Life's value is trending up, todays culture is far superior to whatever you seem to be pining for.

So in one post (#113) you whine that I somehow "shut down any dissenting opinion", and then (#122) you say the mods should shut the thread down.

I love this place.

I just toss the softballs up in the air, and you folks whack 'em over the fence for me.

I wish you would stop trolling my thread. There have been some interesting responses so far.
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Yes, you dont address dissenting opinion~ you merely back-pat posts which confirm your bias and youve ignored charts with hard statistics that show the exact opposite picture of how you paint the world.

There's a reason you crawl away, and its because you, in fact, make MY point for me.

You're not interested in data, you're interested in the feels the sensationalized media have instilled so deeply into you.

How else could a buncha psychos that go on mass shootings and then get press for two weeks convince you that its happening amongst normal people..and not just psychos..and that its indicative of decay...when its statistically very RARE to happen?

Beuller? Beuller?


Tysons tweet was for you folks who have a poor analytical mind, and lead with your emotions prior to any contemplation.

You're still going, even after I pointed out those posts. Here: You're absolutely right, I'm absolutely wrong. I hope that helps.
.

 

[OldLady]

We are skipping over a big part of the answer: Define what a person's liberties are. In no society should it be so easy to kill one another. That should not be a part of a person's "liberties."

Define liberties?

Here:
"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." —Thomas Jefferson

How is that for a "liberty" definition?

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I do love my Tommy, Bootney. Where I see gun control falling is "within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others."
I see those same limits as being kosher around not publicizing hate speech.

There are many others who do not agree. They see themselves, the individual, first, foremost and as far more important than others' needs.

But, Jefferson doesn't say "needs" he says "equal rights" of others.

The free exercise of your liberty cannot infringe upon mine. That's it. Nothing more.

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We've all heard of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, right? Safety is second only to the physical needs that keep us alive. Yes, it is a need, I think.

So what one person thinks he needs to be safe may not be with you think you need to be safe.

You do not have the right to tell anyone else what they need or don't need

Safety isn't really a "think" thing. It has actual parameters, unless you're paranoid. Then it's opinion and all bets are off. The law seldom deals with people's "opinion."

 

[Mac1958]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

On one side you have people that you can't trust and on the other you have people who are constantly being attacked by those same people.
It's like Palestine and Israel.
Good luck trying to get them to work out a piece plan.

I no longer expect the wings to be a part of constructive conversation.

This is going to require some brave souls to reach across the aisle. The rest can keep screaming.
.

 

[OldLady]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

What does that mean? Ever since the 1966 Texas clock tower shooter, alarm bells should have gone off. That particular guy had a brain tumor that in all probability led to his violence. So how could any measure been created to address that? Then or NOW? We need to restrict gun ownership to certified hunters, sportsmen collectors or the police. I don't know how we do that, since the NRA and gun lobbies pretty much have total control over the issue. Like the fox guarding the henhouse. How about we have a NATIONAL referendum on guns, and winner takes all? Since this is a democracy...

I don't think legislation like that is the answer. There are just too many guns. A psycho will be able to get his hands on a gun no matter what.

It seems to me to be smarter to address what is happening within our culture that is devaluing life, and I don't think identifying those things would be all that difficult. The problem is that everything is politicized and no one is willing to give a damn inch.
.

How is life being devalued when theres LESS people murdering people, than historically, Mac?

You base this thread on pure emotion ~ and want anyone to address some problem we might actually have based on a false premise and you shut down any dissenting opinion...and without critical thinking.

Your graphs yesterday led me to research some of my own, and I found some really good ones, too, that show our gun death rates are back to where they were in 1980 or 1960. That's not actually LESS people murdering people than historically. We're back to where we were. It's better than a poke in the eye, but we haven't suddenly become peaceful.

Gun Violence | National Institute of Justice

 

[mudwhistle]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

On one side you have people that you can't trust and on the other you have people who are constantly being attacked by those same people.
It's like Palestine and Israel.
Good luck trying to get them to work out a piece plan.

I no longer expect the wings to be a part of constructive conversation.

This is going to require some brave souls to reach across the aisle. The rest can keep screaming.
.

It's not happening.
One side is the constant target while the other side is blaming the target for everything they themselves are doing.
We're dealing with classic communist tactics here.
You can't make deals with these people.
The only thing you can do is defeat them.
Sadly that is the best we can expect, because these people won't accept a solution.
Solutions remove their power.....and they aren't going to give that power up.

 

[Mac1958]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

On one side you have people that you can't trust and on the other you have people who are constantly being attacked by those same people.
It's like Palestine and Israel.
Good luck trying to get them to work out a piece plan.

I no longer expect the wings to be a part of constructive conversation.

This is going to require some brave souls to reach across the aisle. The rest can keep screaming.
.

It's not happening.
One side is the constant target while the other side is blaming the target for everything they themselves are doing.
We're dealing with classic communist tactics here.
You can't make deals with these people.
The only thing you can do is defeat them.
Sadly that is the best we can expect, because these people won't accept a solution.
Solutions remove their power.....and they aren't going to give that power up.

Yes, both ends tell me that. That's the problem.

Fortunately, some don't think that way.
.

 

[mudwhistle]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

On one side you have people that you can't trust and on the other you have people who are constantly being attacked by those same people.
It's like Palestine and Israel.
Good luck trying to get them to work out a piece plan.

I no longer expect the wings to be a part of constructive conversation.

This is going to require some brave souls to reach across the aisle. The rest can keep screaming.
.

It's not happening.
One side is the constant target while the other side is blaming the target for everything they themselves are doing.
We're dealing with classic communist tactics here.
You can't make deals with these people.
The only thing you can do is defeat them.
Sadly that is the best we can expect, because these people won't accept a solution.
Solutions remove their power.....and they aren't going to give that power up.

Yes, both ends tell me that. That's the problem.

Fortunately, some don't think that way.
.

Both sides tell you that....one of the sides is obviously lying to you.
It's as simple as that.

 

[OldLady]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
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What does that mean? Ever since the 1966 Texas clock tower shooter, alarm bells should have gone off. That particular guy had a brain tumor that in all probability led to his violence. So how could any measure been created to address that? Then or NOW? We need to restrict gun ownership to certified hunters, sportsmen collectors or the police. I don't know how we do that, since the NRA and gun lobbies pretty much have total control over the issue. Like the fox guarding the henhouse. How about we have a NATIONAL referendum on guns, and winner takes all? Since this is a democracy...

I don't think legislation like that is the answer. There are just too many guns. A psycho will be able to get his hands on a gun no matter what.

It seems to me to be smarter to address what is happening within our culture that is devaluing life, and I don't think identifying those things would be all that difficult. The problem is that everything is politicized and no one is willing to give a damn inch.
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We have to do BOTH Mac. Limit ownership of guns AND seriously address what is so broken in our culture. BOTH. A problem this complex does not have an either/or solution. It is everything we can think of all at once. Who cares which works--fling them all at the wall. I'll take anything I can get out of Congress right now because it will be a start.

Yes, as I said in the OP, we have to look at EVERYTHING. The problem is that there are so many guns already in circulation, and they're easy to access outside of any law.
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If you do the math

393 million guns estimated to be in the public's hands in the US


11000 murders committed with guns

.0027% of guns used to commit murder

But the percentage is actually lower because one gun can be used to murder more than one person

So yes we have many guns but 99.9973% of them are never used to kill anyone.

In any other metric that number would simply be called 100%

That's .0027% used to commit murder in that one year. Are those same guns and same gun owners the same ones committing murder the following year? No, those people are in jail and their guns are sitting in an evidence locker somewhere. The following year it is another .0027% of guns used to commit murder.

I really like the article Task put up. Did you read it? People grab the gun from the closet and go when they've decided they can't stand themselves anymore and they want to end it taking a bunch of people with them. Bitter disappointment in who we are and where we've ended up is very strong juju. I guess we need to go hug a grumpy person today.

 

[mudwhistle]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
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On one side you have people that you can't trust and on the other you have people who are constantly being attacked by those same people.
It's like Palestine and Israel.
Good luck trying to get them to work out a piece plan.

I no longer expect the wings to be a part of constructive conversation.

This is going to require some brave souls to reach across the aisle. The rest can keep screaming.
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It's not happening.
One side is the constant target while the other side is blaming the target for everything they themselves are doing.
We're dealing with classic communist tactics here.
You can't make deals with these people.
The only thing you can do is defeat them.
Sadly that is the best we can expect, because these people won't accept a solution.
Solutions remove their power.....and they aren't going to give that power up.

Yes, both ends tell me that. That's the problem.

Fortunately, some don't think that way.
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Both sides tell you that....one of the sides is obviously lying to you.
It's as simple as that.

Just when I thought you were taking steps to becoming rational again you take two steps back.

Faking that you have no position while constantly showing you have one isn't effective anymore.