CDZ Why aren't we addressing the gun issue as a cultural problem?

[Mac1958]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

What does that mean? Ever since the 1966 Texas clock tower shooter, alarm bells should have gone off. That particular guy had a brain tumor that in all probability led to his violence. So how could any measure been created to address that? Then or NOW? We need to restrict gun ownership to certified hunters, sportsmen collectors or the police. I don't know how we do that, since the NRA and gun lobbies pretty much have total control over the issue. Like the fox guarding the henhouse. How about we have a NATIONAL referendum on guns, and winner takes all? Since this is a democracy...

I don't think legislation like that is the answer. There are just too many guns. A psycho will be able to get his hands on a gun no matter what.

It seems to me to be smarter to address what is happening within our culture that is devaluing life, and I don't think identifying those things would be all that difficult. The problem is that everything is politicized and no one is willing to give a damn inch.
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[MaryL]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

What does that mean? Ever since the 1966 Texas clock tower shooter, alarm bells should have gone off. That particular guy had a brain tumor that in all probability led to his violence. So how could any measure been created to address that? Then or NOW? We need to restrict gun ownership to certified hunters, sportsmen collectors or the police. I don't know how we do that, since the NRA and gun lobbies pretty much have total control over the issue. Like the fox guarding the henhouse. How about we have a NATIONAL referendum on guns, and winner takes all? Since this is a democracy...

I don't think legislation like that is the answer. There are just too many guns. A psycho will be able to get his hands on a gun no matter what.

It seems to me to be smarter to address what is happening within our culture that is devaluing life, and I don't think identifying those things would be all that difficult. The problem is that everything is politicized and no one is willing to give a damn inch.
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I agree. The madness is a small handful of gun manufactures and a minority of firearms fanatics hide behind the arcane and obsolete 2nd Amendment. It's broken, it needs fixing.

 

[Pete7469]

We've all heard of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, right? Safety is second only to the physical needs that keep us alive. Yes, it is a need, I think.

It's something you have to provide for yourself. No one else is responsible for feeding you, clothing you, housing you, HEALING you, or protecting you.

Furthermore, even the SCOTUS has ruled the police are not responsible for protecting you.


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[task0778]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

What does that mean? Ever since the 1966 Texas clock tower shooter, alarm bells should have gone off. That particular guy had a brain tumor that in all probability led to his violence. So how could any measure been created to address that? Then or NOW? We need to restrict gun ownership to certified hunters, sportsmen collectors or the police. I don't know how we do that, since the NRA and gun lobbies pretty much have total control over the issue. Like the fox guarding the henhouse. How about we have a NATIONAL referendum on guns, and winner takes all? Since this is a democracy...

I don't think legislation like that is the answer. There are just too many guns. A psycho will be able to get his hands on a gun no matter what.

It seems to me to be smarter to address what is happening within our culture that is devaluing life, and I don't think identifying those things would be all that difficult. The problem is that everything is politicized and no one is willing to give a damn inch.
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If you want to address what is happening within our culture that devalues life, it seems to me that the first place to start is the abortion issue. I don't want to start an off-topic argument about it, but a country that legalizes abortion right up to birth is certainly not showing much in the way of valuing human life. For whatever reason, not just to save the mother's life or in cases of rape or incest.

But let me leave that issue and talk about something else: you only have to look at the rising suicide rates, opioid deaths, declining life expectancy, and, of course, the onslaught of mass shootings to see the country’s despair. A recent survey found that more than a fifth of Millennials say they have no friends — a poignant illustration of the loneliness crisis that probably has at least as much to do with mass shootings as white supremacy or video games. Young people, particularly males, are increasingly isolated and socially maladjusted. And that is a cultural problem. Consider:

For two years, we’ve been studying the life histories of mass shooters in the United States for a project funded by the National Institute of Justice, the research arm of the U.S. Department of Justice. We’ve built a database dating back to 1966 of every mass shooter who shot and killed four or more people in a public place, and every shooting incident at schools, workplaces, and places of worship since 1999. We’ve interviewed incarcerated perpetrators and their families, shooting survivors and first responders. We’ve read media and social media, manifestos, suicide notes, trial transcripts and medical records.


First, the vast majority of mass shooters in our study experienced early childhood trauma and exposure to violence at a young age. The nature of their exposure included parental suicide, physical or sexual abuse, neglect, domestic violence, and/or severe bullying. The trauma was often a precursor to mental health concerns, including depression, anxiety, thought disorders or suicidality.

Second, practically every mass shooter we studied had reached an identifiable crisis point in the weeks or months leading up to the shooting. They often had become angry and despondent because of a specific grievance. For workplace shooters, a change in job status was frequently the trigger. For shooters in other contexts, relationship rejection or loss often played a role. Such crises were, in many cases, communicated to others through a marked change in behavior, an expression of suicidal thoughts or plans, or specific threats of violence.

Third, most of the shooters had studied the actions of other shooters and sought validation for their motives. People in crisis have always existed. But in the age of 24-hour rolling news and social media, there are scripts to follow that promise notoriety in death. Societal fear and fascination with mass shootings partly drives the motivation to commit them. Hence, as we have seen in the last week, mass shootings tend to come in clusters. They are socially contagious. Perpetrators study other perpetrators and model their acts after previous shootings. Many are radicalized online in their search for validation from others that their will to murder is justified.

Fourth, the shooters all had the means to carry out their plans. Once someone decides life is no longer worth living and that murdering others would be a proper revenge, only means and opportunity stand in the way of another mass shooting. Is an appropriate shooting site accessible? Can the would-be shooter obtain firearms? In 80% of school shootings, perpetrators got their weapons from family members, according to our data. Workplace shooters tended to use handguns they legally owned. Other public shooters were more likely to acquire them illegally.
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We also need to, as a society, be more proactive. Most mass public shooters are suicidal, and their crises are often well known to others before the shooting occurs. The vast majority of mass shooters leak their plans ahead of time. People who see or sense something is wrong, however, may not always say something to someone owing to the absence of clear reporting protocols or fear of overreaction and unduly labeling a person as a potential threat. Proactive violence prevention starts with schools, colleges, churches and employers initiating conversations about mental health and establishing systems for identifying individuals in crisis, reporting concerns and reaching out — not with punitive measures but with resources and long-term intervention. Everyone should be trained to recognize the signs of a crisis.

Proactivity needs to extend also to the traumas in early life that are common to so many mass shooters. Those early exposures to violence need addressing when they happen with ready access to social services and high-quality, affordable mental health treatment in the community. School counselors and social workers, employee wellness programs, projects that teach resilience and social emotional learning, and policies and practices that decrease the stigma around mental illness will not just help prevent mass shootings, but will also help promote the social and emotional success of all Americans.

Op-Ed: We have studied every mass shooting since 1966. Here's what we've learned about the shooters

These proactive ideas aren't just for reducing mass shootings, but also suicides and other forms of murder or violence.

 

[MaryL]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

What does that mean? Ever since the 1966 Texas clock tower shooter, alarm bells should have gone off. That particular guy had a brain tumor that in all probability led to his violence. So how could any measure been created to address that? Then or NOW? We need to restrict gun ownership to certified hunters, sportsmen collectors or the police. I don't know how we do that, since the NRA and gun lobbies pretty much have total control over the issue. Like the fox guarding the henhouse. How about we have a NATIONAL referendum on guns, and winner takes all? Since this is a democracy...

I don't think legislation like that is the answer. There are just too many guns. A psycho will be able to get his hands on a gun no matter what.

It seems to me to be smarter to address what is happening within our culture that is devaluing life, and I don't think identifying those things would be all that difficult. The problem is that everything is politicized and no one is willing to give a damn inch.
.

Yes, it seems that way. This isn't so much a democratic republic anymore. An economic aristocracy. Take for instance sanctuary cities, never on a ballot. Nope, nobody got to vote on them, just imposed on us by god knows whom. But they must of had a lot money to get away with the biggest con job in American history.

 

[Lincoln1976]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

What does that mean? Ever since the 1966 Texas clock tower shooter, alarm bells should have gone off. That particular guy had a brain tumor that in all probability led to his violence. So how could any measure been created to address that? Then or NOW? We need to restrict gun ownership to certified hunters, sportsmen collectors or the police. I don't know how we do that, since the NRA and gun lobbies pretty much have total control over the issue. Like the fox guarding the henhouse. How about we have a NATIONAL referendum on guns, and winner takes all? Since this is a democracy...

I don't think legislation like that is the answer. There are just too many guns. A psycho will be able to get his hands on a gun no matter what.

It seems to me to be smarter to address what is happening within our culture that is devaluing life, and I don't think identifying those things would be all that difficult. The problem is that everything is politicized and no one is willing to give a damn inch.
.

I agree. The madness is a small handful of gun manufactures and a minority of firearms fanatics hide behind the arcane and obsolete 2nd Amendment. It's broken, it needs fixing.

I highly disagree here! I'll give you my European take on this (and yes,I used to be anti-gun):

the 2nd amendment wasn't put in place to fend off bears in the wild...it was installed as a fail safe against a possible tyranical government.Might look trivial but it sure isn't!

We HAVE tyrannical governments all over Europe now and as a result,our whole continent is imploding in violence,chaos and poverty.That is no exageration.
Government here KNOW that people are defenceless and they openly ignore any available democratical tool,to send a message or change the system.

Propaganda is rampant...election fraud is rampant...yellow vest protesters? so what,14 got killed so far and 4000 injured many very badly (blown off hand,shot out eyes for example).

What is the problem with guns? decency has been attacked in our "modern" culture...the degenrate run the show and their message drives people up the wall...THAT has to stop!

Our cultures only work in a certain frame work and we have allowed these people to be very present in public life (even though they're only a small fraction)

 

[OldLady]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

What does that mean? Ever since the 1966 Texas clock tower shooter, alarm bells should have gone off. That particular guy had a brain tumor that in all probability led to his violence. So how could any measure been created to address that? Then or NOW? We need to restrict gun ownership to certified hunters, sportsmen collectors or the police. I don't know how we do that, since the NRA and gun lobbies pretty much have total control over the issue. Like the fox guarding the henhouse. How about we have a NATIONAL referendum on guns, and winner takes all? Since this is a democracy...

I don't think legislation like that is the answer. There are just too many guns. A psycho will be able to get his hands on a gun no matter what.

It seems to me to be smarter to address what is happening within our culture that is devaluing life, and I don't think identifying those things would be all that difficult. The problem is that everything is politicized and no one is willing to give a damn inch.
.

We have to do BOTH Mac. Limit ownership of guns AND seriously address what is so broken in our culture. BOTH. A problem this complex does not have an either/or solution. It is everything we can think of all at once. Who cares which works--fling them all at the wall. I'll take anything I can get out of Congress right now because it will be a start.

 

[Mac1958]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

What does that mean? Ever since the 1966 Texas clock tower shooter, alarm bells should have gone off. That particular guy had a brain tumor that in all probability led to his violence. So how could any measure been created to address that? Then or NOW? We need to restrict gun ownership to certified hunters, sportsmen collectors or the police. I don't know how we do that, since the NRA and gun lobbies pretty much have total control over the issue. Like the fox guarding the henhouse. How about we have a NATIONAL referendum on guns, and winner takes all? Since this is a democracy...

I don't think legislation like that is the answer. There are just too many guns. A psycho will be able to get his hands on a gun no matter what.

It seems to me to be smarter to address what is happening within our culture that is devaluing life, and I don't think identifying those things would be all that difficult. The problem is that everything is politicized and no one is willing to give a damn inch.
.

We have to do BOTH Mac. Limit ownership of guns AND seriously address what is so broken in our culture. BOTH. A problem this complex does not have an either/or solution. It is everything we can think of all at once. Who cares which works--fling them all at the wall. I'll take anything I can get out of Congress right now because it will be a start.

Yes, as I said in the OP, we have to look at EVERYTHING. The problem is that there are so many guns already in circulation, and they're easy to access outside of any law.
.

 

[Blues Man]

We are skipping over a big part of the answer: Define what a person's liberties are. In no society should it be so easy to kill one another. That should not be a part of a person's "liberties."

Humans are soft and fragile, sometimes it's hard to avoid killing them, especially stupid ones that wander into traffic like AOC would if she didn't have handlers.

Murder would happen a lot less if more people had a belief that the consequences of committing that sin was actually a SIN, and would result in their soul being tormented for eternity.

For whatever reason, having faith in that is somehow a bad thing in our modern society.

It's not the tool that matters, it's the increasing amount of people who are willing to kill and will use whatever means to do so. Take all the guns away, they will use bombs, poison, trucks, blades, or whatever.

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You might be right, Pete, about the SIN thing. I don't know the answer. I can tell you, though, that although I do not believe in The Big Man Upstairs, I would never consider murder. Ever.

How many people did God kill?

 

[Blues Man]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, they're easily accessible by any maniac, so legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

We are skipping over a big part of the answer: Define what a person's liberties are. In no society should it be so easy to kill one another. That should not be a part of a person's "liberties."

Define liberties?

Here:
"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." —Thomas Jefferson

How is that for a "liberty" definition?

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I do love my Tommy, Bootney. Where I see gun control falling is "within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others."
I see those same limits as being kosher around not publicizing hate speech.

There are many others who do not agree. They see themselves, the individual, first, foremost and as far more important than others' needs.

But, Jefferson doesn't say "needs" he says "equal rights" of others.

The free exercise of your liberty cannot infringe upon mine. That's it. Nothing more.

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We've all heard of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, right? Safety is second only to the physical needs that keep us alive. Yes, it is a need, I think.

So what one person thinks he needs to be safe may not be with you think you need to be safe.

You do not have the right to tell anyone else what they need or don't need

 

[Blues Man]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

What does that mean? Ever since the 1966 Texas clock tower shooter, alarm bells should have gone off. That particular guy had a brain tumor that in all probability led to his violence. So how could any measure been created to address that? Then or NOW? We need to restrict gun ownership to certified hunters, sportsmen collectors or the police. I don't know how we do that, since the NRA and gun lobbies pretty much have total control over the issue. Like the fox guarding the henhouse. How about we have a NATIONAL referendum on guns, and winner takes all? Since this is a democracy...

I don't think legislation like that is the answer. There are just too many guns. A psycho will be able to get his hands on a gun no matter what.

It seems to me to be smarter to address what is happening within our culture that is devaluing life, and I don't think identifying those things would be all that difficult. The problem is that everything is politicized and no one is willing to give a damn inch.
.

We have to do BOTH Mac. Limit ownership of guns AND seriously address what is so broken in our culture. BOTH. A problem this complex does not have an either/or solution. It is everything we can think of all at once. Who cares which works--fling them all at the wall. I'll take anything I can get out of Congress right now because it will be a start.

Yes, as I said in the OP, we have to look at EVERYTHING. The problem is that there are so many guns already in circulation, and they're easy to access outside of any law.
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If you do the math

393 million guns estimated to be in the public's hands in the US


11000 murders committed with guns

.0027% of guns used to commit murder

But the percentage is actually lower because one gun can be used to murder more than one person

So yes we have many guns but 99.9973% of them are never used to kill anyone.

In any other metric that number would simply be called 100%

 

[G.T.]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

What does that mean? Ever since the 1966 Texas clock tower shooter, alarm bells should have gone off. That particular guy had a brain tumor that in all probability led to his violence. So how could any measure been created to address that? Then or NOW? We need to restrict gun ownership to certified hunters, sportsmen collectors or the police. I don't know how we do that, since the NRA and gun lobbies pretty much have total control over the issue. Like the fox guarding the henhouse. How about we have a NATIONAL referendum on guns, and winner takes all? Since this is a democracy...

I don't think legislation like that is the answer. There are just too many guns. A psycho will be able to get his hands on a gun no matter what.

It seems to me to be smarter to address what is happening within our culture that is devaluing life, and I don't think identifying those things would be all that difficult. The problem is that everything is politicized and no one is willing to give a damn inch.
.

How is life being devalued when theres LESS people murdering people, than historically, Mac?

You base this thread on pure emotion ~ and want anyone to address some problem we might actually have based on a false premise and you shut down any dissenting opinion...and without critical thinking.

 

[Mac1958]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

What does that mean? Ever since the 1966 Texas clock tower shooter, alarm bells should have gone off. That particular guy had a brain tumor that in all probability led to his violence. So how could any measure been created to address that? Then or NOW? We need to restrict gun ownership to certified hunters, sportsmen collectors or the police. I don't know how we do that, since the NRA and gun lobbies pretty much have total control over the issue. Like the fox guarding the henhouse. How about we have a NATIONAL referendum on guns, and winner takes all? Since this is a democracy...

I don't think legislation like that is the answer. There are just too many guns. A psycho will be able to get his hands on a gun no matter what.

It seems to me to be smarter to address what is happening within our culture that is devaluing life, and I don't think identifying those things would be all that difficult. The problem is that everything is politicized and no one is willing to give a damn inch.
.

How is life being devalued when theres LESS people murdering people, than historically, Mac?

You base this thread on pure emotion ~ and want anyone to address some problem we might actually have based on a false premise and you shut down any dissenting opinion...and without critical thinking.

Not sure how I can shut down opinion.

You're certainly free to disagree with anything I say.
.

 

[G.T.]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

What does that mean? Ever since the 1966 Texas clock tower shooter, alarm bells should have gone off. That particular guy had a brain tumor that in all probability led to his violence. So how could any measure been created to address that? Then or NOW? We need to restrict gun ownership to certified hunters, sportsmen collectors or the police. I don't know how we do that, since the NRA and gun lobbies pretty much have total control over the issue. Like the fox guarding the henhouse. How about we have a NATIONAL referendum on guns, and winner takes all? Since this is a democracy...

I don't think legislation like that is the answer. There are just too many guns. A psycho will be able to get his hands on a gun no matter what.

It seems to me to be smarter to address what is happening within our culture that is devaluing life, and I don't think identifying those things would be all that difficult. The problem is that everything is politicized and no one is willing to give a damn inch.
.

We have to do BOTH Mac. Limit ownership of guns AND seriously address what is so broken in our culture. BOTH. A problem this complex does not have an either/or solution. It is everything we can think of all at once. Who cares which works--fling them all at the wall. I'll take anything I can get out of Congress right now because it will be a start.

Yes, as I said in the OP, we have to look at EVERYTHING. The problem is that there are so many guns already in circulation, and they're easy to access outside of any law.
.

If you do the math

393 million guns estimated to be in the public's hands in the US


11000 murders committed with guns

.0027% of guns used to commit murder

But the percentage is actually lower because one gun can be used to murder more than one person

So yes we have many guns but 99.9973% of them are never used to kill anyone.

In any other metric that number would simply be called 100%

He's absurd.

He keeps saying that life is being "devalued" in a culture where LESS people are being Murdered, than historically.

Back-assward logic.

 

[Blues Man]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

What does that mean? Ever since the 1966 Texas clock tower shooter, alarm bells should have gone off. That particular guy had a brain tumor that in all probability led to his violence. So how could any measure been created to address that? Then or NOW? We need to restrict gun ownership to certified hunters, sportsmen collectors or the police. I don't know how we do that, since the NRA and gun lobbies pretty much have total control over the issue. Like the fox guarding the henhouse. How about we have a NATIONAL referendum on guns, and winner takes all? Since this is a democracy...

I don't think legislation like that is the answer. There are just too many guns. A psycho will be able to get his hands on a gun no matter what.

It seems to me to be smarter to address what is happening within our culture that is devaluing life, and I don't think identifying those things would be all that difficult. The problem is that everything is politicized and no one is willing to give a damn inch.
.

We have to do BOTH Mac. Limit ownership of guns AND seriously address what is so broken in our culture. BOTH. A problem this complex does not have an either/or solution. It is everything we can think of all at once. Who cares which works--fling them all at the wall. I'll take anything I can get out of Congress right now because it will be a start.

No, address the root causes of violence and guns won't matter.

less than .0027% of guns are used to commit murder.

Most murders are committed with illegally obtained weapons

 

[G.T.]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

What does that mean? Ever since the 1966 Texas clock tower shooter, alarm bells should have gone off. That particular guy had a brain tumor that in all probability led to his violence. So how could any measure been created to address that? Then or NOW? We need to restrict gun ownership to certified hunters, sportsmen collectors or the police. I don't know how we do that, since the NRA and gun lobbies pretty much have total control over the issue. Like the fox guarding the henhouse. How about we have a NATIONAL referendum on guns, and winner takes all? Since this is a democracy...

I don't think legislation like that is the answer. There are just too many guns. A psycho will be able to get his hands on a gun no matter what.

It seems to me to be smarter to address what is happening within our culture that is devaluing life, and I don't think identifying those things would be all that difficult. The problem is that everything is politicized and no one is willing to give a damn inch.
.

How is life being devalued when theres LESS people murdering people, than historically, Mac?

You base this thread on pure emotion ~ and want anyone to address some problem we might actually have based on a false premise and you shut down any dissenting opinion...and without critical thinking.

Not sure how I can shut down opinion.

You're certainly free to disagree with anything I say.
.

Statistics are not opinion, Mac.

You are saying that these shootings somehow show that culture devalues life...

when theres LESS murdering going on, than historically...

THATS a fact, your opinions dont supercede actual data and thats a BEAUTIFUL thing.

 

[Mac1958]

I don't have a simple legislative answer for the gun problem. There are already ten kazillion guns out there, and they're easily accessible by any maniac. So legislating along the fringes can only do so much. Can we do some legislating here and there? Sure, let's look at EVERYTHING. But legislation's efficacy will be limited and long term only.

Obviously, our poisoned political environment is going to slow down (or worse) anything major that we try to do. That appears to be the goal, for some reason. But is it possible for us all to look at this as a cultural issue? WHY is life so cheap now? HOW do people become so radicalized? WHAT pushes a damaged person over that last edge of sanity and turns them into a monster? WHEN can we step in without harming a person's liberties?

And perhaps most importantly, how can we COMMUNICATE, COLLABORATE and INNOVATE in this toxic political environment, to SAVE LIVES? Certainly we have to look at entertainment. Certainly we have to look at partisan politics from a macro perspective. Certainly we have to look at the internet. There are some things we all can consider. No?

I think MOST of our problems are cultural, directly or indirectly. This is another example. But we're tying our own hands.
.

What does that mean? Ever since the 1966 Texas clock tower shooter, alarm bells should have gone off. That particular guy had a brain tumor that in all probability led to his violence. So how could any measure been created to address that? Then or NOW? We need to restrict gun ownership to certified hunters, sportsmen collectors or the police. I don't know how we do that, since the NRA and gun lobbies pretty much have total control over the issue. Like the fox guarding the henhouse. How about we have a NATIONAL referendum on guns, and winner takes all? Since this is a democracy...

I don't think legislation like that is the answer. There are just too many guns. A psycho will be able to get his hands on a gun no matter what.

It seems to me to be smarter to address what is happening within our culture that is devaluing life, and I don't think identifying those things would be all that difficult. The problem is that everything is politicized and no one is willing to give a damn inch.
.

How is life being devalued when theres LESS people murdering people, than historically, Mac?

You base this thread on pure emotion ~ and want anyone to address some problem we might actually have based on a false premise and you shut down any dissenting opinion...and without critical thinking.

Not sure how I can shut down opinion.

You're certainly free to disagree with anything I say.
.

Statistics are not opinion, Mac.

You are saying that these shootings somehow show that culture devalues life...

when theres LESS murdering going on, than historically...

THATS a fact, your opinions dont supercede actual data and thats a BEAUTIFUL thing.

Outstanding!
.

 

[SweetSue92]

When I was a kid, there were guns all over the place. Eight year old boys got a 22 for their birthday. Family picnics found us out back shooting holes in targets.
We weren't shooting each other so it isn't the guns. It is something else. Let's look for that something else.

Bingo, exactly. Somewhere along the line, life became cheap.
.

Good thread topic as usual, Mac. To me, a lot of these things have been clearly seen to anyone paying attention, but threads like these make me doubtful, so, kudos.

Culture? America has never really had one to me. It's mostly a mixed bag borrowed from other cultures due to our diverse demographics. The 'love it or leave it' forced patriotism nonsense coming around again is a sign of the cyclical nature of our politics in society, and we don't seem to be too interested in learning from our own history, much less anyone else's. Moms, baseball and apple pie do really not make a culture, but some seem content with just that.

Americas priorities have always been screwed up to me, even before new mediums of entertainment turned the volume up to 11 (you're welcome). Remember the good old days when a stray nipple at a Super Bowl half time show was enough to bring America's comically puritanical standards to a standstill in our collective outrage? Whether you agreed or disagreed, we talked about it. We discussed the impacts of censorship. Yet, violence always gets a pass. We need to get a handle on why that is, because our time is running out.

In today's America, your 10-year-old can see death and murder on the screen multiple times a day, and that's without adding the option of cable, satellite and internet. Video games are ultra violent too, which may or may not be adding to this unsettling trend of dehumanization manifesting in some of the worst cultural decay I've ever seen in my lifetime. We let children become addicted to drugs early in their development because the challenge of actually raising children has become too hard for some (sometimes drug addicted) parents to cope with. That's a serious fucking problem to have. Even more so unaddressed. The dehumanization and child neglect I see nowadays has been normalized by parents suffering from what I can only assume to be a variant of Munchausen Syndrome. Those kids in cages on the border aren't 'ours', thus they are less than human, and an 'out of sight, out of mind' mentality becomes normalized behavior.

Nothing will change, because at the heart of the issue, we collectively don't want it to change. Pornography still has many stigmas attached to it, yet it's net worth wouldn't be $97 Billion dollars a year if people weren't watching it. We've turned into a nation that worships superficial. Mass shooters know they will get their misguided 'fame' because our media constantly fails and disappoints us in providing anything resembling objective news. They are more concerned with red meat and ad dollars to change at this point.

Privatization and corporate sponsorship is infesting all levels of the government and it's starting to rot. The prisons and damn near every level of the penal system is being replaced with private industry in a nation with the highest incarceration rate in the world. Think about that for one second, because it's fucking terrifying to me. Prison slavery and dehumanization has become a profit bearing business.

When our own government deliberately undervalues human lives, society tends to fall in line until it becomes normalized.

Yeah, when I refer to "culture" in this context, I mean the general rules of decency, behavior and standards to which we agree as a "civilized" society. All one has to do is look at our entertainment, our popular culture, and our politics to see a clear decay in our decency, behavior and standards.

Worse, there appears to be little attempt to change this trajectory. Some (as we're seeing on this thread) are perfectly fine with ignoring it. And once a problem becomes ingrained in our society, it becomes almost impossible to eradicate.

So in this context, the devaluing of human life seems to me to be clearly culture-oriented. It's just another example of how our culture is decaying.
.

Well I addressed it early on and got no responses.

 

[G.T.]

What does that mean? Ever since the 1966 Texas clock tower shooter, alarm bells should have gone off. That particular guy had a brain tumor that in all probability led to his violence. So how could any measure been created to address that? Then or NOW? We need to restrict gun ownership to certified hunters, sportsmen collectors or the police. I don't know how we do that, since the NRA and gun lobbies pretty much have total control over the issue. Like the fox guarding the henhouse. How about we have a NATIONAL referendum on guns, and winner takes all? Since this is a democracy...

I don't think legislation like that is the answer. There are just too many guns. A psycho will be able to get his hands on a gun no matter what.

It seems to me to be smarter to address what is happening within our culture that is devaluing life, and I don't think identifying those things would be all that difficult. The problem is that everything is politicized and no one is willing to give a damn inch.
.

How is life being devalued when theres LESS people murdering people, than historically, Mac?

You base this thread on pure emotion ~ and want anyone to address some problem we might actually have based on a false premise and you shut down any dissenting opinion...and without critical thinking.

Not sure how I can shut down opinion.

You're certainly free to disagree with anything I say.
.

Statistics are not opinion, Mac.

You are saying that these shootings somehow show that culture devalues life...

when theres LESS murdering going on, than historically...

THATS a fact, your opinions dont supercede actual data and thats a BEAUTIFUL thing.

Outstanding!
.

See how you are engaged based on hard data, and you run and dont do anything but obfuscate?

Thats what happens when you are brainwashed by hysterics, and also too dishonest to absorb actual data, actual facts...

Murder is DOWN, Mac.


DOWN.

And? Because you are so susceptible to 24/7 media and sensationalism...

YOU make threads wondering why its UP...and claiming it means life is DEVALUED.


Data doesnt care about your brainwash and delusions. Less people per-capita are murderers, than historically. We, our current culture, value life MORE.

And thats awesome, and thats empirical.


Your thread is based on the same old man feels as many old men have gotten throughout history. Culture changes and youre offended by your rigid sensibilities...that, and being manipulated too easily by a 24/7 news cycle, and your mind is polluted to living in upside-down world and with no spine or rational argument to present the logic.

 

[Mac1958]

I don't think legislation like that is the answer. There are just too many guns. A psycho will be able to get his hands on a gun no matter what.

It seems to me to be smarter to address what is happening within our culture that is devaluing life, and I don't think identifying those things would be all that difficult. The problem is that everything is politicized and no one is willing to give a damn inch.
.

How is life being devalued when theres LESS people murdering people, than historically, Mac?

You base this thread on pure emotion ~ and want anyone to address some problem we might actually have based on a false premise and you shut down any dissenting opinion...and without critical thinking.

Not sure how I can shut down opinion.

You're certainly free to disagree with anything I say.
.

Statistics are not opinion, Mac.

You are saying that these shootings somehow show that culture devalues life...

when theres LESS murdering going on, than historically...

THATS a fact, your opinions dont supercede actual data and thats a BEAUTIFUL thing.

Outstanding!
.

See how you are engaged based on hard data, and you run and dont do anything but obfuscate?

Thats what happens when you are brainwashed by hysterics, and also too dishonest to absorb actual data, actual facts...

Murder is DOWN, Mac.


DOWN.

And? Because you are so susceptible to 24/7 media and sensationalism...

YOU make threads wondering why its UP...and claiming it means life is DEVALUED.


Data doesnt care about your brainwash and delusions. Less people per-capita are murderers, than historically. We, our current culture, value life MORE.

And thats awesome, and thats empirical.


Your thread is based on the same old man feels as many old men have gotten throughout history. Culture changes and youre offended by your rigid sensibilities...that, and being manipulated too easily by a 24/7 news cycle, and your mind is polluted to living in upside-down world and with no spine or rational argument to present the logic.

That's great, thanks!
.