Zone1 Why are there so many Old Testament Christians?

[PeterPilot]

Jesus focused on the love and equality that was written in the Old Testament.

You may not understand certain aspects or events from the Old Testament - the same way many modern day people do not understand Paul's letter to Timothy, when he said, "...Women are to learn in silence with complete submission." (1TIM2:11)

"Do not judge, or you will be judged, by the same measure you judge others, you too will be judged."

I like Paul's ideas in Corinthians: The letter of the law brings death, but the spirit of the law brings life.

 

[ding]

If he believed that the Jews are superior to the rest, why did he preach that God loved all men equally?

Chosen to establish standards of behavior does not equal superiority, but it does naturally lead to success. Normalization of deviance which is when one normalizes his deviance to standards leads to predictable surprises.

It shouldn't be a surprise that the Jews contributions to mankind are significant especially considering their tiny numbers.

 

[PeterPilot]

Exactly how long have you been a militant atheist?

Your powers of perception are quite weak, but that is easy to understand given the bizarre internet lens through which we view each other. I am not an atheist, I am a Deist. I communicate with God all the time, but greatly distrust organized religion. I don't need a church or a priest. God and I meet at the beach and in the mountains. Organized religion has been used to manipulate humans and make them superstitious.

 

[Ace Nova]

I like Paul's ideas in Corinthians: The letter of the law brings death, but the spirit of the law brings life.

Now you're getting somewhere. Well done.

 

[Foxfyre]

If he believed that the Jews are superior to the rest, why did he preach that God loved all men equally?

There is a HUGE difference between believing a people are the chosen ones and believing they are superior to all the rest. But sometimes I think the Jewish people are superior in many ways. For instance they constitute just .2% of the world population but 22% of Nobel prizes have been awarded to Jewish people. This despite their long long LONG history of those who hate them making all manner of effort to eradiate them from the Earth.

 

[PeterPilot]

Now you're getting somewhere. Well done.

I've been there long before you and I met. That's part of the reason I started this thread. So far nobody has offered a persuasive explanation (except for ignorance and superstition) as to how Christians can embrace the Zionist Genocide.

"1560 Geneva Bible, Leviticus 4: Can you ‘sin’ unwittingly?"

Opinion - Naomi Wolf

substack.com

Here is something from the Jewish woman Naomi Wolf that may be relevant to the discussion.

 

[ding]

Not persuasive sir. I tend to judge people and organizations by their actions, as words are cheap. By their murderous actions over many decades at least, it appears to me they are living up to The Lord's command in Deut 7. Whatever their "head and shoulders above laws" are, the actions that result are crimes against humanity.

You are seeing what you want to see. You should look at the full picture.

0.2% OF WORLD'S POPULATION
14.1 Million Jews

NOBEL PRIZE WINNERS:

Literature

1910 - Paul Heyse
1927 - Henri Bergson
1958 - Boris Pasternak
1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon
1966 - Nelly Sachs
1976 - Saul Bellow
1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer
1981 - Elias Canetti
1987 - Joseph Brodsky
1991 - Nadine Gordimer

World Peace

1911 - Alfred Fried
1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser
1968 - Rene Cassin
1973 - Henry Kissinger
1978 - Menachem Begin
1986 - Elie Wiesel
1994 - Shimon Peres
1994 - Yitzhak Rabin

Chemistry

1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
1906 - Henri Moissan
1910 - Otto Wallach
1915 - Richard Willstaetter
1918 - Fritz Haber
1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
1961 - Melvin Calvin
1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
1972 - William Howard Stein
1977 - Ilya Prigogine
1979 - Herbert Charles Brown
1980 - Paul Berg
1980 - Walter Gilbert
1981 - Roald Hoffmann
1982 - Aaron Klug
1985 - Albert A. Hauptman
1985 - Jerome Karle
1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach
1988 - Robert Huber
1989 - Sidney Altman
1992 - Rudolph Marcus
2000 - Alan J. Heeger

Economics

1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson
1971 - Simon Kuznets
1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow
1975 - Leonid Kantorovich
1976 - Milton Friedman
1978 - Herbert A. Simon
1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein
1985 - Franco Modigliani
1987 - Robert M. Solow
1990 - Harry Markowitz
1990 - Merton Miller
1992 - Gary Becker
1993 - Rober Fogel

Medicine

1908 - Elie Metchnikoff
1908 - Paul Erlich
1914 - Robert Barany
1922 - Otto Meyerhof
1930 - Karl Landsteiner
1931 - Otto Warburg
1936 - Otto Loewi
1944 - Joseph Erlanger
1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser
1945 - Ernst Boris Chain
1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller
1950 - Tadeus Reichstein
1952 - Selman Abraham Waksman
1953 - Hans Krebs
1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann
1958 - Joshua Lederberg
1959 - Arthur Kornberg
1964 - Konrad Bloch
1965 - Francois Jacob
1965 - Andre Lwoff
1967 - George Wald
1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg
1969 - Salvador Luria
1970 - Julius Axelrod
1970 - Sir Bernard Katz
1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman
1975 - David Baltimore
1975 - Howard Martin Temin
1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg
1977 - Rosalyn Sussman Yalow
1978 - Daniel Nathans
1980 - Baruj Benacerraf
1984 - Cesar Milstein
1985 - Michael Stuart Brown
1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein
1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]
1988 - Gertrude Elion
1989 - Harold Varmus
1991 - Erwin Neher
1991 - Bert Sakmann
1993 - Richard J. Roberts
1993 - Phillip Sharp
1994 - Alfred Gilman
1995 - Edward B. Lewis

Physics

1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson
1908 - Gabriel Lippmann
1921 - Albert Einstein
1922 - Niels Bohr
1925 - James Franck
1925 - Gustav Hertz
1943 - Gustav Stern
1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi
1952 - Felix Bloch
1954 - Max Born
1958 - Igor Tamm
1959 - Emilio Segre
1960 - Donald A. Glaser
1961 - Robert Hofstadter
1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau
1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman
1965 - Julian Schwinger
1969 - Murray Gell-Mann
1971 - Dennis Gabor
1973 - Brian David Josephson
1975 - Benjamin Mottleson
1976 - Burton Richter
1978 - Arno Allan Penzias
1978 - Peter L. Kapitza
1979 - Stephen Weinberg
1979 - Sheldon Glashow
1988 - Leon Lederman
1988 - Melvin Schwartz
1988 - Jack Steinberger
1990 - Jerome Friedman
1995 - Martin Perl

 

[ReinyDays]

Matthew is described in the NT as a TAX COLLECTOR

Upthread, you told me to study some history .. so I did ... and history says Matthew didn't write Matthew ... more importantly, Mark didn't write Mark, from which most of Matthew was drawn from ...

Conventional Wisdom attributes this to an anonymous writer sometime late in the 1st Century AD ... perhaps it is you who should study some history ...

 

[PeterPilot]

You are seeing what you want to see. You should look at the full picture.

0.2% OF WORLD'S POPULATION
14.1 Million Jews

NOBEL PRIZE WINNERS:

Literature

1910 - Paul Heyse
1927 - Henri Bergson
1958 - Boris Pasternak
1966 - Shmuel Yosef Agnon
1966 - Nelly Sachs
1976 - Saul Bellow
1978 - Isaac Bashevis Singer
1981 - Elias Canetti
1987 - Joseph Brodsky
1991 - Nadine Gordimer

World Peace

1911 - Alfred Fried
1911 - Tobias Michael Carel Asser
1968 - Rene Cassin
1973 - Henry Kissinger
1978 - Menachem Begin
1986 - Elie Wiesel
1994 - Shimon Peres
1994 - Yitzhak Rabin

Chemistry

1905 - Adolph Von Baeyer
1906 - Henri Moissan
1910 - Otto Wallach
1915 - Richard Willstaetter
1918 - Fritz Haber
1943 - George Charles de Hevesy
1961 - Melvin Calvin
1962 - Max Ferdinand Perutz
1972 - William Howard Stein
1977 - Ilya Prigogine
1979 - Herbert Charles Brown
1980 - Paul Berg
1980 - Walter Gilbert
1981 - Roald Hoffmann
1982 - Aaron Klug
1985 - Albert A. Hauptman
1985 - Jerome Karle
1986 - Dudley R. Herschbach
1988 - Robert Huber
1989 - Sidney Altman
1992 - Rudolph Marcus
2000 - Alan J. Heeger

Economics

1970 - Paul Anthony Samuelson
1971 - Simon Kuznets
1972 - Kenneth Joseph Arrow
1975 - Leonid Kantorovich
1976 - Milton Friedman
1978 - Herbert A. Simon
1980 - Lawrence Robert Klein
1985 - Franco Modigliani
1987 - Robert M. Solow
1990 - Harry Markowitz
1990 - Merton Miller
1992 - Gary Becker
1993 - Rober Fogel

Medicine

1908 - Elie Metchnikoff
1908 - Paul Erlich
1914 - Robert Barany
1922 - Otto Meyerhof
1930 - Karl Landsteiner
1931 - Otto Warburg
1936 - Otto Loewi
1944 - Joseph Erlanger
1944 - Herbert Spencer Gasser
1945 - Ernst Boris Chain
1946 - Hermann Joseph Muller
1950 - Tadeus Reichstein
1952 - Selman Abraham Waksman
1953 - Hans Krebs
1953 - Fritz Albert Lipmann
1958 - Joshua Lederberg
1959 - Arthur Kornberg
1964 - Konrad Bloch
1965 - Francois Jacob
1965 - Andre Lwoff
1967 - George Wald
1968 - Marshall W. Nirenberg
1969 - Salvador Luria
1970 - Julius Axelrod
1970 - Sir Bernard Katz
1972 - Gerald Maurice Edelman
1975 - David Baltimore
1975 - Howard Martin Temin
1976 - Baruch S. Blumberg
1977 - Rosalyn Sussman Yalow
1978 - Daniel Nathans
1980 - Baruj Benacerraf
1984 - Cesar Milstein
1985 - Michael Stuart Brown
1985 - Joseph L. Goldstein
1986 - Stanley Cohen [& Rita Levi-Montalcini]
1988 - Gertrude Elion
1989 - Harold Varmus
1991 - Erwin Neher
1991 - Bert Sakmann
1993 - Richard J. Roberts
1993 - Phillip Sharp
1994 - Alfred Gilman
1995 - Edward B. Lewis

Physics

1907 - Albert Abraham Michelson
1908 - Gabriel Lippmann
1921 - Albert Einstein
1922 - Niels Bohr
1925 - James Franck
1925 - Gustav Hertz
1943 - Gustav Stern
1944 - Isidor Issac Rabi
1952 - Felix Bloch
1954 - Max Born
1958 - Igor Tamm
1959 - Emilio Segre
1960 - Donald A. Glaser
1961 - Robert Hofstadter
1962 - Lev Davidovich Landau
1965 - Richard Phillips Feynman
1965 - Julian Schwinger
1969 - Murray Gell-Mann
1971 - Dennis Gabor
1973 - Brian David Josephson
1975 - Benjamin Mottleson
1976 - Burton Richter
1978 - Arno Allan Penzias
1978 - Peter L. Kapitza
1979 - Stephen Weinberg
1979 - Sheldon Glashow
1988 - Leon Lederman
1988 - Melvin Schwartz
1988 - Jack Steinberger
1990 - Jerome Friedman
1995 - Martin Perl

Yes I have been aware of that for many years. For open heart surgery in 2004, the doctor who held my heart in his hands was Jewish.

More, Albert Einstein and Hannah Arendt wrote a letter to the NYT in which they compared the radical Zionists like Begin and Shamir to the Nazis in Germany. Einstein favored a homeland for the Jews, but cautioned against statehood because the Zionists were just like the Nazis in their thoughts and actions.

 

[ding]

Your powers of perception are quite weak, but that is easy to understand given the bizarre internet lens through which we view each other. I am not an atheist, I am a Deist. I communicate with God all the time, but greatly distrust organized religion. I don't need a church or a priest. God and I meet at the beach and in the mountains. Organized religion has been used to manipulate humans and make them superstitious.

I couldn't be happier for you to underestimate me. That only works to my advantage.

Deism is the belief in a supreme being or God who created the universe but does not intervene in its affairs or in the lives of humans. Deists generally reject the idea of a God who answers prayers, performs miracles, or directly guides human lives. So how does your personal relationship with God work with a non-intervening deity?

Because from my "weak powers of perception," your posts seem to be that of a ,militant atheist despite your otherwise claim.

 

[ding]

I've been there long before you and I met. That's part of the reason I started this thread. So far nobody has offered a persuasive explanation (except for ignorance and superstition) as to how Christians can embrace the Zionist Genocide.

"1560 Geneva Bible, Leviticus 4: Can you ‘sin’ unwittingly?"

Opinion - Naomi Wolf

substack.com

Here is something from the Jewish woman Naomi Wolf that may be relevant to the discussion.

Sure I did. You ignored it. You are reading it wrong. You can't separate the embellishment from the author’s descriptive portrayal of reality.

 

[ding]

Yes I have been aware of that for many years. For open heart surgery in 2004, the doctor who held my heart in his hands was Jewish.

More, Albert Einstein and Hannah Arendt wrote a letter to the NYT in which they compared the radical Zionists like Begin and Shamir to the Nazis in Germany. Einstein favored a homeland for the Jews, but cautioned against statehood because the Zionists were just like the Nazis in their thoughts and actions.

Usually militant atheism goes hand in hand with antisemitism.

Einstein supported a Jewish homeland in Palestine, he opposed the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and political ambitions, fearing it would lead to conflict and damage the "essential nature of Judaism". He advocated for a binational solution with peaceful coexistence between Jews and Arabs.

 

[Meriweather]

Your powers of perception are quite weak, but that is easy to understand given the bizarre internet lens through which we view each other. I am not an atheist, I am a Deist. I communicate with God all the time, but greatly distrust organized religion. I don't need a church or a priest. God and I meet at the beach and in the mountains. Organized religion has been used to manipulate humans and make them superstitious.

There is no doubt one can meet God anywhere...closet, mountains, beaches, deserts, forests. This is God calling us to prayer. Yet, throughout the Bible God's command is also for our collective worship. It is not one or the other, it is both.

Seriously, are you afraid you will be manipulated should you dare show up for communal worship? Perhaps instead think of why people are gathering--to worship God, not tend to our own insecurities and paranoia(s).

 

[irosie91]

Neither the Talmud nor the Mishnah were in written form until the third century...two hundred years after Jesus lived. Because there was no long a Jewish Temple there was a growing anxiety Oral Tradition would be forgotten. The Talmud's written form, began in the third century, was not completed in its present form until the sixth century. The Mishnah (oral law) was written down in the third century.

Odd that you keep dragging in Constantine. Constantine's part is that he wanted to end religious quarrels, particularly the one over Arianism. He ordered bishops and religious leaders to come together and resolve their differences. It was the religious leaders, not Constantine, who gathered up all written material and decided which would be Canon and which would not. Constantine could not have cared less what was chosen to be included and what was given a pass. After the opening session, he seldom showed up to meetings of the Council of Nicaea.

You also keep mixing up Jesus with Paul. Paul was the Pharisee (Letter to the Philippians). Paul had been proud to be a Pharisee. He noted he studied under Gamaliel, that he was an ardent follower of the Law, that he pursued and persecuted the early Christians who were followers of Jesus and his ways--Jesus who was outspoken against Oral Law. Ask yourself: Would one Pharisee persecute another Pharisee? Jesus held the Ten Commandments in great esteem, saying not one iota of this Law would pass away, but he was not a fan of Oral Law--and Pharisees were. Like Paul, Pharisees were diligent in its practice. Jesus and his disciples were not--the reason Paul had originally been pursuing and persecuting them.

thanks again for the official christian reconstruction. The talmud was not "written" in the third century AD----it was compiled in its latest edition. I do not confuse the hellenized Paul with Jesus at all. The term "oral law" confuses you----you seem to believe that it is something like a corollary to the NT which is via "HEAVENLY INSPIRATION" word for word. The talmud---which sorta seems to be what you are calling "the oral law" is not a "BIBLE" in the sense that both the OT and NT are somewhat simplistically viewed----to wit ---HEAVENLY MADE. It is a
compendium of scholarly DISCUSSION AND DEBATE----you don't get to "BELIEVE IN IT" as if it were like "gospel". You get to study it for what it is----analysis based on that which is traditionally UNDERSTOOD to be true. Your statement---"imagine Pharisee's fighting with each other"!!! why not----
Josephus was a Pharisee and got himself so controversial that he
considered the possibility that he might be assassinated. I am not convinced that the story that PAUL was being "arrested"
is historical. ----he died in Roman hands. Jesus was arrested for
sedition against Rome. What did the Romans have on Paul?
What did the Judeans have on Paul that was so flimsy that they
had to GET THE ROMANS TO KILL HIM (sheeeesh---jews are that queasy about executing people???? what was wrong with
those limp wristed Pharisees?)

 

[GMCGeneral]

Your post reinforces why some, including Alan Watts, refer to the bible as the most dangerous book in the world because it leads to hatred, murder and theft.

No,G-d still condemns all of that. Jesus never canceled the Law. He wrote it.

 

[Meriweather]

thanks again for the official christian reconstruction.

It's also on Jewish websites... As you should know, I research both sides, which is how I distinguish your opinions from what historical sites from both perspectives are presenting. Another point I keep in mind, is no one--not me, you, or even the scholars and commentators on those websites were here to observe when it was all going down.

I don't give the "official Christian reconstruction" and from my own research, nor do you give the "official Jewish reconstruction".

 

[Woodznutz]

No he wasn't.

To whom do you believe Jesus was sent?

 

[Woodznutz]

No,G-d still condemns all of that. Jesus never canceled the Law. He wrote it.

You don't teach graduate level courses to grade schoolers.

Old Covenant: For spiritual children
New Covenant: For spiritual adults

 

[Foxfyre]

Yes I have been aware of that for many years. For open heart surgery in 2004, the doctor who held my heart in his hands was Jewish.

More, Albert Einstein and Hannah Arendt wrote a letter to the NYT in which they compared the radical Zionists like Begin and Shamir to the Nazis in Germany. Einstein favored a homeland for the Jews, but cautioned against statehood because the Zionists were just like the Nazis in their thoughts and actions.

Be careful not to include Nazi propaganda with your views of the historical and factual record. Einstein did not support Jewish statehood because of the inevitable tensions he knew would occur between the Arabs and the Jews. But neither did he actively oppose that state once it became a reality. And as for his views of the Zionists, he funded many of their causes. He certainly did not see them as "Nazi-like."

67 years after his death, Albert Einstein’s true relationship to Judaism — and Zionism - St. Louis Jewish Light

Is any name more synonymous with Jewish genius than Albert Einstein? By speaking out against anti-Semitism and lending his brand to institutions like the Albert Einstein College of Medicine, Einstein became a standard-bearer for the Diaspora. As a prominent booster of The Hebrew University of...

stljewishlight.org

And as do many Christians, even many of non-Jewish heritage--Einstein who was of Jewish heritage, albeit a secular one, felt a deep kinship with the Jewish people. And that too is why the Old Testament manuscripts are embraced by many Christians as well as unorthodox Jewish people.

 

[norwegen]

Did Jesus buy into the nonsense about Jews being 'the Chosen Ones'?

No, he did not.