Why a woman can't be James Bond.....

[miketx]

I just don't think a woman can be Bond.

Because of the combat thing or the slut-shaming thing?

Both. In order for Moneypenney to be a slut, AND be shamed, she has to be a woman.

I agree with you that the cultural propensity to slut-shaming makes it a hard sell. (But I disagree on the strength).

So if a woman pops up out of a cake, is she a pop-tart?

 

[usmbguest5318]

Regardless of how it is addressed, the fact remains that few modern societies look kindly on the notion of women as libertines.

Which is exactly WHY it needs to be addressed.

Also, Starbuck in Battlestar Galactica. Brilliant success in a gender reversal from the original.

Starbuck in Battlestar Galactica. Brilliant success in a gender reversal from the original.

I agree with you about the gender switch for "Starbuck."

That said, who's "Starbuck?" The object of discussion here is James Bond, not a short-lived 1970s TV cult sci-fi supporting character that got revived -- admirably so, no less -- in the early oughts.

So, its okay to gender switch "supporting" characters (I disagree, btw, Starbuck was top-billed in both the original and the remake), but not cultural "icons"? Why not?

Okay....Let me be clear. If you're going to present some equivocal BS and loaded questions like that to me, you should not address me. And if you truly don't understand the impacts and exigencies of the contextual differences between Bond and a minor character on a television show, again, you should not engage with me. Others here may suffer puerilely silly lines like that which you've posted above, but I won't.

 

[Shusha]

Sorry....you are just wrong.....with no holds barred the woman is even in a worse position.....if training and everything else is equal, the woman will still not be equal because the man will be stronger, more aggressive and will have the upper body strength that are so vital to combat....

You are confusing untrained "fights" with elite highly trained and skilled practitioners. If we take the whole gender thing out of the conversation for a moment, you are claiming that the person with the superior upper body strength will always win a fight. You are just flat out wrong.

An elite combatant does not need to be stronger than an opponent. An elite combatant, who is capable of doing lethal damage, can defeat a stronger opponent in a dozen ways -- being faster, being more accurate, having better timing of technique, being able to better read an opponent's "tells", having a faster reaction time, being able to chain, having more highly trained and ingrained flow, better adaptability, better able to read environments, being better able to control and use adrenaline.

The value of being "strong" in elite warriors is minimal. Elite warriors, the Bonds of the world, do not win fights because they are stronger. They win because they are better.

 

[usmbguest5318]

I just don't think a woman can be Bond.

Because of the combat thing or the slut-shaming thing?

Neither. Did I stutter when I first provided my reason? Perhaps you didn't read it?

Because Ian Fleming created the character as a man, not as a woman.

That Bond transcends being a mere character and is a cultural icon is also part of it. It's the part that cements his nature as Fleming created it. One's sex is an essential aspect of one's nature.

 

[MarkDuffy]

Why a woman can't be James Bond.....

Dumb thread

Everyone knows women are not named James

 

[miketx]

I just don't think a woman can be Bond.

Because of the combat thing or the slut-shaming thing?

Neither. Did I stutter when I first provided my reason? Perhaps you didn't read it?

Because Ian Fleming created the character as a man, not as a woman.

That Bond transcends being a mere character and is a cultural icon is also part of it. It's the part that cements his nature as Fleming created it. One's sex is an essential aspect of one's nature.

As a life long stutterer, let me assure you that you cannot stutter in text. Of course one time on peyote....

 

[Shusha]

Ryan Reynolds and Blake Lively's daughter is named James.

 

[Shusha]

That Bond transcends being a mere character and is a cultural icon is also part of it. It's the part that cements his nature as Fleming created it. One's sex is an essential aspect of one's nature.

So the answer to my question was "yes". It is okay to gender switch a "supporting character" but not a cultural icon. Might've just said so and saved all the long-winded replies.

 

[2aguy]

Sorry....you are just wrong.....with no holds barred the woman is even in a worse position.....if training and everything else is equal, the woman will still not be equal because the man will be stronger, more aggressive and will have the upper body strength that are so vital to combat....

You are confusing untrained "fights" with elite highly trained and skilled practitioners. If we take the whole gender thing out of the conversation for a moment, you are claiming that the person with the superior upper body strength will always win a fight. You are just flat out wrong.

An elite combatant does not need to be stronger than an opponent. An elite combatant, who is capable of doing lethal damage, can defeat a stronger opponent in a dozen ways -- being faster, being more accurate, having better timing of technique, being able to better read an opponent's "tells", having a faster reaction time, being able to chain, having more highly trained and ingrained flow, better adaptability, better able to read environments, being better able to control and use adrenaline.

The value of being "strong" in elite warriors is minimal. Elite warriors, the Bonds of the world, do not win fights because they are stronger. They win because they are better.

No....you are wrong......you wanted to compare a man and a woman of equal training......I did that....then you throw in strength and speed and the woman can't compete.....we aren't talking about an untrained, stronger man vs. a trained strong woman.....

And even then.....a trained, female is still at a disadvantage....biology is biology.

The elite of the world win fights because they can take more pain, have no hesitation when it comes to damaging another human being and just will not quit......and this is where the woman loses....

 

[Shusha]

The elite of the world win fights because they can take more pain, have no hesitation when it comes to damaging another human being and just will not quit......and this is where the woman loses....

And none of those things have anything to do with strength. I agree wholeheartedly that being able to take pain, have no hesitation and not quitting are vital to elite warriors. You can add those to the list I already provided. None of that is strength though.

 

[usmbguest5318]

That Bond transcends being a mere character and is a cultural icon is also part of it. It's the part that cements his nature as Fleming created it. One's sex is an essential aspect of one's nature.

So the answer to my question was "yes". It is okay to gender switch a "supporting character" but not a cultural icon. Might've just said so and saved all the long-winded replies.

So the answer to my question was "yes". It is okay to gender switch a "supporting character" but not a cultural icon.

This is now the second time you've embarked on that scurrilous rhetorical approach to discourse with me. You can try for a third, but I won't respond to you after it.

 

[OldLady]

James Bond is a guy.
If you want a female spy, write one. Matahari was no slouch. Would a female spy have to be a "slut?" I don't see why she would have to be modeled on Bond, but if she wanted to play around, I don't think there would be as much outcry about it as some here seem to think.

My favorite female spy movie? Jumpin' Jack Flash. I still laugh every time her dress starts going into the shredder. And....well, never mind. Loved that movie.

 

[Syriusly]

This from the guy who started a whole thread on why women can't hold their own in science fiction films.....

Would anyone go to see a female lead sci fi movie...if it wasn't supported by the words "Star Wars?"

Apparently 2aguy has a real problem with women as action starts in movies.

 

[hjmick]

You have some people thinking it would be a good thing for a woman to be James Bond....rather than making their own new spy who is a woman...the Atomic Blonde movie would actually be a good start for this.....

But a woman can't be James Bond....here's why...

Why James Bond Should Never Be A Woman

Unlike any other character in a long-running franchise, James Bond is a male fantasy figure. As Sean Connery once said, “Bond is important: this invincible superman that every man would like to copy, that every woman would like to conquer, this dream we all have of survival.”

If you want a female British spy, then be creative and make your own franchise instead of co-opting one that has a character who personifies masculinity. Follow the lead of Star Trek. They didn’t cast a woman as James Kirk in the reinvention of the series. Instead, they showed their real talent as writers and producers and created a whole new storyline in which Kathryn Janeway excelled as the captain of Voyager.

------

But if men are so captivated by competency, wouldn’t they find a competent female James Bond just as compelling? Wouldn’t they still want to be like her, despite her sex? No, for two reasons. First, the value of competency for a man is between men and about men. Men appreciate competency in a woman, but it doesn’t excite them the way it does when they see it in a man, and they don’t usually want to compete with it.


Second, while a woman can be competent in many things just as a man, she can’t be in others, especially strength. An elite woman will never consistently physically overpower an elite man. This is a fiction perpetuated as reality by fiction. James Bond would defeat any woman in hand-to-hand combat—even one as fierce as Xenia Onatopp.

No matter a woman’s skill level, in the world of a spy where you’re dealing with other highly skilled men on an equal playing field, a woman wouldn’t hold her own in a physical fight the way a man would. Injecting this level of improbability even into fiction dampens the enthusiasm for competency. Put bluntly, Daniel Craig would pummel Charlize Theron every day of the week, no matter how skilled she is, and men know it.

Maybe it doesn’t matter if men don’t want to be like her. Women might. Strong female characters are certainly in vogue—just look at the popularity of Brienne and Ayra on “Game of Thrones.” But while we might be entertained by these characters, we really don’t want to be them (though, like Eowyn of “Lord of the Rings,” these characters retain much of their femininity, which makes them more believable and appealing). Women who are killing machines don’t inspire us the way James Bond inspires men, which is why the franchise is so successful.

Womanizing Isn’t Attractive In a Woman, Either

When it comes down to it, women don’t want to be a woman who acts like a man, especially one who is a “womanizer.” The truth is, most women aren’t into lesbian sex, and in a film that is supposed to be rich in masculinity, this just won’t inspire viewers. There’s no dance or erotic tension that’s unique to the male-female dynamic in lesbian sex. There’s no real, powerful masculine presence, and it’s this element that makes Bond so appealing.

That's a shitload of words just to say, "Because Ian Fleming wrote the character as a man."


Now, there's no reason a woman can't be a "double O," no reason a woman can't have the license to kill...

 

[Shusha]

Yeah, no one would want to go see a female lead in an action movie...

 

[hjmick]

This from the guy who started a whole thread on why women can't hold their own in science fiction films.....

Would anyone go to see a female lead sci fi movie...if it wasn't supported by the words "Star Wars?"

Apparently 2aguy has a real problem with women as action starts in movies.

Just imagine if the original ALIEN franchise had employed a female lead in its movies, they would have been huge!

 

[2aguy]

Yeah, no one would want to go see a female lead in an action movie...

View attachment 140366

Notice that she has super human strength........

 

[2aguy]

This from the guy who started a whole thread on why women can't hold their own in science fiction films.....

Would anyone go to see a female lead sci fi movie...if it wasn't supported by the words "Star Wars?"

Apparently 2aguy has a real problem with women as action starts in movies.

Just imagine if the original ALIEN franchise had employed a female lead in its movies, they would have been huge!

The first Alien was an ensemble cast......the 2nd Alien was also an ensemble till just the end.......

 

[Shusha]

Yeah, no one would want to go see a female lead in an action movie...

View attachment 140366

Notice that she has super human strength........

'Cause THAT never happens in action movies.

 

[2aguy]

Yeah, no one would want to go see a female lead in an action movie...

View attachment 140366

Notice that she has super human strength........

'Cause THAT never happens in action movies.

Didn't say it can't......I am pointing out that Wonder Woman is not a normal woman......which allows her to do the things she does.....