Who is the most underrated NBA player in history? My 2 submissions.

[Mr. Friscus]

Dude, you're spewing straight garbage out of your ass. Based on what?

Again, based on what? Your fantasies?

Based on what? Lebron always has the ball when the game is on the line. He may pass it to the open man when the defense collapses, but that's nearly always the correct basketball play. Lebron will hit a set player in rhythm while Jordan is more likely to take an off-balance shot. Jordan made some great ones, but he missed a lot more. However, your whole premise is based on a mythology.

Since the bet is impossible to be carried out, no amount of posturing makes any difference.

Lebron made plenty of game winning shots, likely more than Jordan. You're so desperately grasping at straws here it's uncanny.

It's always so "facepalm" to watch Jordan disciples spew near religious claims of Jordan's other-wordly greatness, as if he never failed, won every game he played, and was never shown up or defeated. My wheelhouse was MJ's career. I watched the guy in real time. Modern Jordan zealots have a LOT of erroneous assumptions of MJ, likely because they were served near-propaganda from the NBA, Nike, and even Jordan's own "The Last Dance", which he produced as his own promotional tool.

The most laughable claim from you is that Jordan's "will to win" is somehow unmatched... as if Russell's 11 championships, Magic's 5 championships, Kareem's 5 championships, Bird's 3 championships, etc... are subpar to Michael. Let me clue you in on a convincing argument against simply jacking off MJ as the GOAT, as you seem to want to start the discussion from that point. No, the matter starts from the point that nobody is the GOAT, and you have to make convincing arguments to support a player's greatness. I'll use Lebron as my counter point since he seems to bother you so much

1. Jordan was the greatest scorer in the late 80's, but couldn't elevate his team beyond a nearly a .500 record, only to be swept out of the playoffs by the Celtics year in and year out. Meanwhile, Lebron carried a team of scrubs to the 2007 NBA finals against a Spurs Dynasty. Jordan couldn't even get scrubs out of the first round. Jordan jacked up shots, he scored the most, but he also wasn't necessarily efficient. Think Allen Iverson or Carmelo Anthony.. players who are incredibly skilled but don't create successful teams.
2. Jordan "retired" (aka, was suspended) in 1993-94, and in 1994-95 the Bulls won 57 games and made the Conference finals with Pippen and coach Phil Jackson, only missing the NBA finals by a New York miracle. He accounted for minimal games won. Meanwhile, Lebron left the Cavs for the first time as a 60 win team, then the Cavs only won 20+ games the following year despite keeping nearly all the players and adding low-caliber All-Star Antoine Jamison. Lebron meant WAY more wins to a team than MJ.
3. Jordan's Bulls played historically sub-par teams in the finals, as Jordan seemed to wait out the golden age of the 80's (Magic and Bird) until they got old so he could succeed. The bulls beat an ancient Lakers for their first title, a one-and-done Portland team with Clyde Drexler as the best player, and then a solid Suns team (the best team they'd beat). In the second run, they beat a one-and-done Sonics team, and a never-was Utah Jazz team twice. In the history of the NBA, Russell had Wilt, Magic had Bird, and MJ had... noone, and not because he was so much more great, but because the NBA had a severe valley in the mid-late 90's in all-time great talent... it's a low spot in NBA history, and that's where Jordan flourished. I'm not blaming him, but he truly never had to go through another all-time great. Meanwhile, Lebron's Heat took down one of the greatest dynasties in NBA history during their prime twice in the Duncan-Parker-Ginobli Spurs, and also took down the Steph Curry-Klay Thompson 73 win Warriors. Those 3 Finals wins are far beyond anything Jordan's bulls beat.
4. Jordan's competition at his positions was absolutely historically subpar. Jordan was one of the first to utilize the Bo Jackson mantra of cross training and lifting to enhance play on the court, but that was a Bulls systemic decision, not some MJ wizardry. Jordan regularly faced slow white guys or any-colored non-alltime-great players throughout the 90's, let's look at some examples: Dan Majarle, Jeff Hornicek, Hershey Hawkins, John Starks, Gerald Wilkins, etc. Jordan had minimal opposition at his position, and not necessarily because he was so great, but because the entire league was in a clear swell of talent compared to the 80's. That's why he was able to mount up so many NBA defensive player of the year awards at his position... he's a great defender, but he got great at the right time. Meanwhile, Lebron had to face Kevin Durant, Kevin Garnett, Carmelo Anthony, Bosh, Dirk, Webber, Khawai Leonard, Paul George, Paul Pierce.. FAR greater talent.

Hell, I could go on. But you seem to bite hard on the Jordan mythology and didn't watch it in real time. Jordan was re-created in the media as a "working man's" player.. in truth he was a whiney Diva who would bitch to the refs nonstop (and bitch to his owner and GM about players on his team) ... and often live at the free throw line like James Harden. He also completely pressed traveling rules in the NBA at the time, and was nearly untouchable as the refs would treat the guy like litmus paper. He really wasn't that tough beyond having to put up with some hard fouls from the Pistons during his time of being dominated by the "Bad Boys". All of that is overblown completely by modernists who weren't there.

Jordan is an all-time great player, but by no means a clear-cut GOAT. Only low-information fans think that. I can use multiple players to cut holes in the "Jordan is the GOAT" argument like swiss cheese. It's quite simple actually.

My take? Don't be a moron and make absolute claims about who the GOAT of the NBA is, and treat different eras as seperate entities.

sealybobo What happened? Cat got your crotch?

 

[sealybobo]

sealybobo What happened? Cat got your crotch?

MJ is the GOAT. He has more championships and besides Scottie, those were not stars. They just made their shots, stole the ball, set the pick. Not Jordan's fault Lebron's teammates let him down so many times. He's not a good leader.

And it's how he won. 3 in a row then 3 in a row again? Forget about it. Everything I'm saying is from the heart. I'm not listening to someone else's opinion and agreeing. Maybe I did google it after you pushed back just to find some facts to spew back but ultimately, you're just going to have to trust me son. I watched, and hated Jordan. I watch and laugh at Lebron. As great as he is physically, he just isn't the mental man or winner that Jordan was. That will to win. Refusal to lose. Lebron don't have it. I can't believe you can't see it.

I think everyone would admit it. Jordan would have whipped Lebron.

Jordan
Shaq
Pippen
Rodman
Steve Kerr

Jebron
?
?
?
?

Jordan wins the series in 6 games.

 

[Couchpotato]

MJ is the GOAT. He has more championships and besides Scottie, those were not stars. They just made their shots, stole the ball, set the pick. Not Jordan's fault Lebron's teammates let him down so many times. He's not a good leader. \

Bill Russell has almost twice as many as Jordan at one point winning 8 in a row. The man only played 13 seasons and won 11 titles.

And it's how he won. 3 in a row then 3 in a row again? Forget about it. Everything I'm saying is from the heart. I'm not listening to someone else's opinion and agreeing. Maybe I did google it after you pushed back just to find some facts to spew back but ultimately, you're just going to have to trust me son. I watched, and hated Jordan. I watch and laugh at Lebron. As great as he is physically, he just isn't the mental man or winner that Jordan was. That will to win. Refusal to lose. Lebron don't have it. I can't believe you can't see it.

I think everyone would admit it. Jordan would have whipped Lebron.

Jordan
Shaq
Pippen
Rodman
Steve Kerr

Jebron
?
?
?
?

Jordan wins the series in 6 games.

You haven't offered a single argument to support the claim that Jordan is the GOAT. Not 1. MrFriscus (who doesn't agree with you) has offered more evidence for it than you have.

 

[Nate99]

One guy that I don't hear a lot about is Lenny Wilkens.

 

[my2¢]

Bill Russell is my choice, but Muggsy Bogues was fun to watch.

 

[bdtex]

I'm 65 now and a guy I remember when I watched a lot of basketball in my younger days was Wes Unseld, 6' 7" center for the Baltimore/Washington Bullets. MVP one year, NBA Championship another year. Not a real high scorer but averaged 14 rebounds a game. Hall of Famer too.

 

[sealybobo]

Bill Russell has almost twice as many as Jordan at one point winning 8 in a row. The man only played 13 seasons and won 11 titles.


You haven't offered a single argument to support the claim that Jordan is the GOAT. Not 1. MrFriscus (who doesn't agree with you) has offered more evidence for it than you have.

Bill Russell is a completely different circumstance. The best player on the best team. But he didn't score enough to be the GOAT.

I don't need to offer any argument. This is an opinion and one that can never be proven. I just know from watching Lebron in the Finals, Jordan would have kicked his soft ass.

Lebron is the greatest body, built in a lab, a god, physically. Just not mentally. I can't believe you witnessed Jordan and don't see it. Kobe would have beat Lebron too.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

I don't need to offer any argument.

Then say your conspiracy theory and GTFO

 

[Fiero425]

Bill Russell is a completely different circumstance. The best player on the best team. But he didn't score enough to be the GOAT.

I don't need to offer any argument. This is an opinion and one that can never be proven. I just know from watching Lebron in the Finals, Jordan would have kicked his soft ass.

Lebron is the greatest body, built in a lab, a god, physically. Just not mentally. I can't believe you witnessed Jordan and don't see it. Kobe would have beat Lebron too.

I bow to the feaverish, winning drive of Jordan, but I grew up respecting raw greatness before the advent of super fandom, social media whore-dom, & the phoniest era when it comes to championship play! The NBA was running on fumes, drug addeled, on the verge of total collapse in the late 70's! The NBA Chp. games were on tape delay; 11:30 PM believe it or not! Magic & Bird brought them back and so w/ his 1st win & run w/ the Lakers, I give the GOAT moniker to Magic Johnson! A player who could play all 5 positions on the court & did as he had to lead the team to victory w/o their Center KA Jabbar that year in '79 over Bird's Celtics!

 

[sealybobo]

Then say your conspiracy theory and GTFO

I can't believe you guys don't remember how competitive MJ was. He would have destroyed Lebron. Lebron would have won ZERO championships if he played during the Jordan era. You would say "yea because Jordan had better teams". Well, I'm sorry but teammates have to deliver or it's your legacy. So while Lebron might be the prototype for how to build a basketball player, but Jordan is the guy would have owned him.

The competitive nature and killer instinct that Jordan displayed are often cited as intangible qualities that set him apart. Jordan's unparalleled work ethic and his demand for excellence from his teammates are legendary.

His competitiveness and ability to elevate his game in pressure situations are qualities that many argue are defining characteristics of the greatest players in any sport. While LeBron is undoubtedly a fierce competitor, Jordan's unrelenting drive and focus during his prime are often considered unmatched.

I remember Lebron being embarrassed in the finals. I only remember Jordan winning all 6 times. Pretty powerful to see all that winning and then for you to say loser Lebron is better.

They said today that not all championships are equal. For example, Kevin Durant won 2 but with an already championship team. A team that won before and after him. So his 2 championships are good, he was even MVP of the finals, but still, he had to go to the Warriors to get it done.

Same for Lebron. The Cleveland win means more than the Miami rings. But he should have never won in Cleveland. Draymond Green got kicked out of games 5 and 6. Cleveland was down 3 to 1. No one has ever come back from being down 3-1. If Draymond was playing games 5 and 6, no way Lebron wins 3 games in a row. No fucking way! LOL

Who did Lebron beat when he won in the bubble? No one remembers. We almost shouldn't count that season. He has 4 rings but not impressive wins and it took 20 fucking years!

 

[sealybobo]

I bow to the feaverish, winning drive of Jordan, but I grew up respecting raw greatness before the advent of super fandom, social media whore-dom, & the phoniest era when it comes to championship play! The NBA was running on fumes, drug addeled, on the verge of total collapse in the late 70's! The NBA Chp. games were on tape delay; 11:30 PM believe it or not! Magic & Bird brought them back and so w/ his 1st win & run w/ the Lakers, I give the GOAT moniker to Magic Johnson! A player who could play all 5 positions on the court & did as he had to lead the team to victory w/o their Center KA Jabbar that year in '79 over Bird's Celtics!

Got to love Magic.

Winning a high school, college and NBA championship is one of the rarest and most difficult feats to complete for a basketball player. In fact, only 15 players in the history of the game have won at the highest level on all three levels.

Kareem, Magic, Bill Russell, Bill Walton,

Did you watch the HBO show about the Lakers? Showtime? It's really good.

 

[Fiero425]

Got to love Magic.

Winning a high school, college and NBA championship is one of the rarest and most difficult feats to complete for a basketball player. In fact, only 15 players in the history of the game have won at the highest level on all three levels.

Kareem, Magic, Bill Russell, Bill Walton,

Did you watch the HBO show about the Lakers? Showtime? It's really good.

I lived it! Watching the Lakers pass the ball around the court like The Globetrotters toying w/ The Washington Gen.! They were terribly entertaining, but weren't unstoppable due to Bird & Dr. J w/ an assist by Moses Malone to curb those winning ways in the 80's! Funny, Magic's true end occurred when Jordon won his 1st Chp. in '91, taking out the Lakers in 5! It should have been a sweep but for a lucky shot by some rookie in game 1 in Chicago IIRC! I was from Chicago, but had just moved to California where the Kings were trying to make their mark in Sacramento!

 

[sealybobo]

I lived it! Watching the Lakers pass the ball around the court like The Globetrotters toying w/ The Washington Gen.! They were terribly entertaining, but weren't unstoppable due to Bird & Dr. J w/ an assist by Moses Malone to curb those winning ways in the 80's! Funny, Magic's true end occurred when Jordon won his 1st Chp. in '91, taking out the Lakers in 5! It should have been a sweep but for a lucky shot by some rookie in game 1 in Chicago IIRC! I was from Chicago, but had just moved to California where the Kings were trying to make their mark in Sacramento!

I insist you watch Winning Time.

Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The behind the scenes reasons why they didn't win more championships. It gives me great appreciation for any team that wins a ring. So many things have to go right. So many other good teams.

On another threat I started I didn't even consider OKC as a contender. But they're the number one seed. WTF? I thought maybe the Timberwolves but I didn't even see OKC coming. Gonna be a great playoff. I hear this kid on OKC is great.

And NY Knicks. I'm rooting for the Knicks. Boy it'd be great to see them win a ship.

 

[sealybobo]

sealybobo What happened? Cat got your crotch?

Kobe scored more points than MJ. Was he better than MJ? So did Karl Malone. Was he better than MJ? No way. Malone was a beast like Lebron. Physically superior to MJ. How did that work out for him? Same thing would have happened to Lebron.

Jordan was a better defender.

Jordan rose up in the biggest games.

Jordan had the intangibles. Sorry

 

[Couchpotato]

Kobe scored more points than MJ. Was he better than MJ? So did Karl Malone. Was he better than MJ? No way. Malone was a beast like Lebron. Physically superior to MJ. How did that work out for him? Same thing would have happened to Lebron.

Jordan was a better defender.

No he wasnt.

LeBron can and has throughout his career defended the 1-5 at an exceedingly high level. Jordan might have been able to defend 1-3 at best. There's no way he could defend PF's and C's. LeBron defended Zion the other day in his 21st year. The biggest issue I have with this argument is that the rules now vs the 90's favor the offense. Do you never wonder why player's "handles" have gotten so much better? The biggest reason is that the traveling and carry rules have changed so much. The importance of the 3-point shot, position roles changing, etc etc have all changed not only how teams but individuals defend, and thus it's almost impossible to compare eras in that way.

Jordan rose up in the biggest games.

What does that even mean?

Jordan had the intangibles. Sorry

This is the argument used by people who don't have an actual argument.

 

[sealybobo]

No he wasnt.

LeBron can and has throughout his career defended the 1-5 at an exceedingly high level. Jordan might have been able to defend 1-3 at best. There's no way he could defend PF's and C's. LeBron defended Zion the other day in his 21st year. The biggest issue I have with this argument is that the rules now vs the 90's favor the offense. Do you never wonder why player's "handles" have gotten so much better? The biggest reason is that the traveling and carry rules have changed so much. The importance of the 3-point shot, position roles changing, etc etc have all changed not only how teams but individuals defend, and thus it's almost impossible to compare eras in that way.


What does that even mean?


This is the argument used by people who don't have an actual argument.

Almost impossible to compare eras? I think Jordan and Kobe would have dominated in today's era's don't you? How about the person you believe is the most under rated. Would they have been able to hang today? LOL.

What does it mean that Jordan rose up in the biggest games? Jordan, in the biggest moments, said give me the ball. Once he passed to Steve Kerr. But most of the time, Jordan had the ball when the game was on the line. Lebron passes or defers to other team mates. I see it with my own eyes so you can't tell me I'm wrong. And Lebron got cramps one playoff? Compare that to Jordan winning with the fucking flu. Come on man! You're starting to come around. You know it. Jordan was/is still the GOAT.

No, Jordan had the intangibles. Doesn't matter that Lebron scored more points. Did his team win? Jordan's did. That's what matters most. That's what seems to escape you. Lebron can be the greatest physical athlete but I don't remember him as being this great defender you seem to want to say he was/is. Not saying he's bad but great?
Lebron is the greatest if he has the ball and goes down the court and scores. No one can stop him. Like Yianni. Unstoppable. Yianni may be a better physical athlete over Jordan too. But Jordan is still the GOAT if you compare him to Yianni too right?

Based on what you are saying, who else do you think it better than Jordan? I'm sure other people have better numbers than him. Are they the goat? No. Jordan is. Always has been and always will be. At least since he won his 6th championship. God I hated him but on that day he was enshrined in my mind as the GOAT and I think Lebron needs to win 2 more before I will consider your arguments especially in the manner which he won his first 4. Pretty pathetically.

IF he and this pretty good Laker team win it all I will agree Lebron is the goat. Just one more. Do you think he has it in him? I don't. LOL.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

IF he and this pretty good Laker team win it all I will agree Lebron is the goat. Just one more. Do you think he has it in him? I don't. LOL.

If “rings” is your argument..Does Jordan have it in him to come out of retirement and win 5 more rings to catch Russell?

I don’t. LOL

 

[Meister]

In no particular order

1. Moses Malone
3 time NBA MVP
13 Time All star
4 time all NBA first team
6 time rebounding leader
1 NBA championship
1 NBA Finals MVP
11th all time scoring leader
Top Scoring Averages: 31.1, 27.8, 25.8, 24.8
Top Rebounding Averages: 15.3, 14.8, 14.7, 14.5
Career Playoff Average: 22.1ppg, 13.8rpg


2. Elgin Baylor
All NBA First team 10 times
Rookie of the year in 1958-59
11 time all star
Finished 2nd in MVP one year, 3rd in MVP 3 times

This guy doesn't have the "leads the league" stats (he played in the era of Wilt), but is a total beast. Look at his first 5 years in the league
1958-59: 24.9 ppg, 15 rpg, 4.3 apg
1959-60: 29.6 ppg, 16.4 rpg, 3.5 apg
1960-61: 34.8 ppg, 19.8 rpg, 5.1 apg
1961-62: 38.3 ppg, 18.6 rpg, 4.6 apg
1962-63: 34.0 ppg, 14.3 rpg, 4.6 apg

Throughout the 60's afterwards he had points per game scores of: 25.4, 27.1, 16.6, 26.6, 26.0, 24.8, and 24.0
Rebounds of: 12.0, 12.8, 9.6, 12.8, 12.2, 10.6, 10.4

Malone underrated?
3 time NBA MVP
13 Time All star

Looks like he got his recognition..

Same could be said for Elgin.

 

[Fiero425]

Malone underrated?
3 time NBA MVP
13 Time All star

Looks like he got his recognition..

Same could be said for Elgin.

Not everyone's meant to win a championship! To this day people bemoan the lack of a title w/ not only Malone, but Ewing, Barkley, & CP3! Then there are the coaches who are faves of the NBA like Doc Rivers, Mike Fratello, Bill Fitch & others who never seem to win, but keep getting new jobs when free!

 

[Mr. Friscus]

I can't believe you guys don't remember how competitive MJ was. He would have destroyed Lebron. Lebron would have won ZERO championships if he played during the Jordan era. You would say "yea because Jordan had better teams". Well, I'm sorry but teammates have to deliver or it's your legacy. So while Lebron might be the prototype for how to build a basketball player, but Jordan is the guy would have owned him.

The competitive nature and killer instinct that Jordan displayed are often cited as intangible qualities that set him apart. Jordan's unparalleled work ethic and his demand for excellence from his teammates are legendary.

His competitiveness and ability to elevate his game in pressure situations are qualities that many argue are defining characteristics of the greatest players in any sport. While LeBron is undoubtedly a fierce competitor, Jordan's unrelenting drive and focus during his prime are often considered unmatched.

All of this is near-religious zealotry... it's as if you're describing a mythical figure. It's impossible to take seriously.

I remember Lebron being embarrassed in the finals. I only remember Jordan winning all 6 times. Pretty powerful to see all that winning and then for you to say loser Lebron is better.

I never said Lebron is better. I said I'll use Lebron to poke holes in your radical stance that Jordan is the unquestioned GOAT.

Remember, the discussion of the GOAT starts that nobody is, and you have to make the case for who is. I largely think that it's dishonest to declare one player the NBA GOAT given the differences in eras and the multiple all-time great players. You're the one peddling a absolute. All I'm doing is shredding it. Meanwhile, you've offered minimal to no actual reasons for why MJ should be considered the GOAT beyond simple mythical platitudes. It's kind of embarrassing, a bad look for you.

They said today that not all championships are equal. For example, Kevin Durant won 2 but with an already championship team. A team that won before and after him. So his 2 championships are good, he was even MVP of the finals, but still, he had to go to the Warriors to get it done.

Same for Lebron. The Cleveland win means more than the Miami rings. But he should have never won in Cleveland. Draymond Green got kicked out of games 5 and 6. Cleveland was down 3 to 1. No one has ever come back from being down 3-1. If Draymond was playing games 5 and 6, no way Lebron wins 3 games in a row. No fucking way! LOL

I already covered this. Lebron's Heat beat a dynasty all-time great San Antonio Spurs team in the finals. Those Spurs are significantly better than any team Jordan's bulls beat.

Meanwhile, Draymond Green's kicking of someone in the crotch, his own fault, does not mean Golden State automatically wins if he plays. Talk about reaching. Green was all over the place that series, he'd do nothing one game and have a good game the next. Making such a bold statement about the 3rd best player on a team is desperation, which you seem to have plenty of.

Who did Lebron beat when he won in the bubble? No one remembers. We almost shouldn't count that season. He has 4 rings but not impressive wins and it took 20 fucking years!

3 of Lebron's 4 NBA finals wins are against teams far better than any team Jordan's Bulls beat.

I made multiple points that act against Jordan that you ignored, and then went back into religious zealotry mode. You're a Jordan disciple. You make mythical claims about the man, as if Nike/ESPN programmed you.

The thing is, you're the one on the hook. I acknowledge MJ's greatness, and could make an argument for why he could be the GOAT. However, I could do the same for many other players. You're the angry one defending one player. You're the one with the blinders on.