Who is the most underrated NBA player in history? My 2 submissions.

[Couchpotato]

So I looked back at who other people said were under rated. So old, who knows? Fine if they say so. Oscar Robertson? And all the people mentioned are HOF'ers. Let's put it this way. If I know their names, they have not been under rated. For some reason I know their names so they've gotten their props.

Let's talk about TODAY. Let's think about people in the NBA today who are under rated. Lebron is certainly on top of that list. Because he has only won 4 rings. And he shouldn't have won the one in Cleveland. And he had to join Bosch and Wade to win a couple. And they should have won more than they did. And because I look back at all the finals he stunk it up or got cramps. And he won one in the bubble. We should have called that year off. Instead he got his 4th ring.

I'm one of the people who under estimates Lebron. The older he gets, the more I see he has OWNED the league for 20 years. My god. I shouldn't be under estimating him. But even still, I think Jordan would have kicked his ass.

So is he over rated or under rated? I can not tell from this post.

 

[Couchpotato]

So I looked back at who other people said were under rated. So old, who knows? Fine if they say so. Oscar Robertson? And all the people mentioned are HOF'ers. Let's put it this way. If I know their names, they have not been under rated. For some reason I know their names so they've gotten their props.

Let's talk about TODAY. Let's think about people in the NBA today who are under rated. Lebron is certainly on top of that list. Because he has only won 4 rings. And he shouldn't have won the one in Cleveland. And he had to join Bosch and Wade to win a couple. And they should have won more than they did. And because I look back at all the finals he stunk it up or got cramps. And he won one in the bubble. We should have called that year off. Instead he got his 4th ring.

I'm one of the people who under estimates Lebron. The older he gets, the more I see he has OWNED the league for 20 years. My god. I shouldn't be under estimating him. But even still, I think Jordan would have kicked his ass.

And who cares if Jordan would have beaten him 1 on 1? Though I’m not sure that’s true.

 

[sealybobo]

So is he over rated or under rated? I can not tell from this post.

He's under rated by people like me who still say Jordan is the goat.

 

[Couchpotato]

He's under rated by people like me who still say Jordan is the goat.

So you think he is the GOAT?

 

[sealybobo]

And who cares if Jordan would have beaten him 1 on 1? Though I’m not sure that’s true.

Not one on on. Jordan would have beat him in the finals every time they played.

Did you see how Jordan owned the league? 6 rings in a shorter amount of time.

Jordan defeated the Lakers/Celtics/Pistons to become champs. Lebron never beat a great team. One. Golden State. But only because Draymond Green got suspended games 5 and 6. Cleveland was down 3 to 1. No way they come back and win 3 games in a row if Green was playing.

 

[sealybobo]

So you think he is the GOAT?

I still vote Jordan but that's because i under rate Lebron. Probably more so tan any other player in NBA history.

I used to do it to Kobe until he retired then I finally was able to admit how great he was.

I'm getting there with Lebron.

Oh, same way for years Tiger was underrated. It wasn't until his last masters he and I could finally tell people to fuck off as far as him being the GOAT. Because at that point people were saying he would NEVER win another one. When he did, that sealed it for me. Tiger is the GOAT of Golf. Do you agree?

 

[Couchpotato]

Not one on on. Jordan would have beat him in the finals every time they played.

Based on what? Are we talking about the Bulls Champ teams against one of LeBron's champ teams head to head in a 7 game series?

Did you see how Jordan owned the league? 6 rings in a shorter amount of time.

Ok so is Russel the GOAT then? He's got 11 in fewer years than Jordan has 6. The man only played 13 years.

Jordan defeated the Lakers/Celtics/Pistons to become champs. Lebron never beat a great team. One. Golden State. But only because Draymond Green got suspended games 5 and 6. Cleveland was down 3 to 1. No way they come back and win 3 games in a row if Green was playing.

You're hung up on a name. Neither the Lakers nor the Celtics were great when Jordon beat them. Detroit was past it's prime when Jordon beat them, do you not remember them owning his ass for years prior to him getting through once they aged? Jordan lost to them 3 of the 4 times he played them in the post season.

 

[sealybobo]

Based on what? Are we talking about the Bulls Champ teams against one of LeBron's champ teams head to head in a 7 game series?

Ok so is Russel the GOAT then? He's got 11 in fewer years than Jordan has 6. The man only played 13 years.


You're hung up on a name. Neither the Lakers nor the Celtics were great when Jordon beat them. Detroit was past it's prime when Jordon beat them, do you not remember them owning his ass for years prior to him getting through once they aged? Jordan lost to them 3 of the 4 times he played them in the post season.

Remember, I hated Jordan. Took me years to give him the props I now give him. No the Piston's weren't past their prime. He took it from them. They made it to the Eastern Finals and Jordan made US (I'm a Piston fan) walk off without shaking hands.

Then I watched him pull it off 5 more times. He walked away at the right time. IDK, I don't remember all the other years Jordan was in the league and didn't win. Even then, he was great. Just didn't have the team to back him up.

All the greats of Jordan's era who never got rings because of him. But Lebron is generous. Lots of other teams have won in his 20ure. LOL. Instead of tenure? Get it?

Lebron, over time, I will probably admit he's the greatest when you add everything up. But I firmly believe you put Jordan and any of his 6 teams against Lebron and ANY of his, and Jordan beats those Lebron teams. Even Bosh, Wade and Lebron. That was the best team but even Dallas beat them. Lebron is the reason Mark Cuban has a ring.

 

[Couchpotato]

Remember, I hated Jordan. Took me years to give him the props I now give him. No the Piston's weren't past their prime. He took it from them. They made it to the Eastern Finals and Jordan made US (I'm a Piston fan) walk off without shaking hands.

How would I remember that? Did you say that? Also, what does this have to do with anything?

Then I watched him pull it off 5 more times. He walked away at the right time. IDK, I don't remember all the other years Jordan was in the league and didn't win. Even then, he was great. Just didn't have the team to back him up.

It stands to reason that he either didnt make the PO's or lost before the finals though correct? There are only so many outcomes for any team simply.

1. not making the PO's
2. losing before the finals
3. losing in the finals
4, winning a championship.

I would say those outcomes are in order from worst to best wouldnt you? So it's better to have lost IN the finals than before it. Im not sure why LeBron gets punished because he made it deeper into the PO's than Jordan more often.

All the greats of Jordan's era who never got rings because of him. But Lebron is generous. Lots of other teams have won in his 20ure. LOL. Instead of tenure? Get it?

Lebron, over time, I will probably admit he's the greatest when you add everything up. But I firmly believe you put Jordan and any of his 6 teams against Lebron and ANY of his, and Jordan beats those Lebron teams. Even Bosh, Wade and Lebron. That was the best team but even Dallas beat them. Lebron is the reason Mark Cuban has a ring.

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There's 2 considerations IMO. Peak and length of greatness.

Jordan's peak might be higher. Lets assume that it is. The delta between the 2 isnt much.

LeBron's length of greatness is exponentially greater than Jordan's. He's a top 10 guy in the league now in his 21st year. He was the best player in the world for longer than Jordan played in total and he's not done. You never say never but his scoring record is very unlikely to be broken. He will probably end his career with close to and possible more than 45k points. Durant has 28k right now. That's how far ahead LeBron is. LeBron is also top 5 in assists and will end up top 3 and possibly 2nd only to Stockton who was an assist machine. Jordan is 51. LeBron is 31 in rebounds. Jordan 148.

 

[Oddball]

George Mikan

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Unless you think he's the GOAT there are lots of people who would say you are underrating him.

Modern players that are in the discussion for the GOAT can’t be “underrated”.

in that specific discussion, Bill Russell is, but overall, no GOAT candidate is underrated

 

[Couchpotato]

Modern players that are in the discussion for the GOAT can’t be “underrated”.

in that specific discussion, Bill Russell is, but overall, no GOAT candidate is underrated

Bill Russell is the GOAT? Why most rings?

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Bill Russell is the GOAT? Why most rings?

If I had to take a pick of a basketball GOAT who had the most impressive mix of team championships and individual stats/MVP's, I'd take Russell.

5 MVP's
11 Championships

Nuff said, right?

But I don't think it's intellectually honest to try to compare eras overall. I think you can compare players within a general era... but comparing Russell to Lebron, Lebron to MJ, MJ to Russell is a fool's errand that will just be tainted with bias.

Fair comparisons would be Wilt vs. Russell, Wilt vs. Kareem, Magic vs. Jordan, Lebron doesn't really have a true GOAT contender in his era. Modernists want to elevate Kobe but he only has 1 MVP and his 3 championships with Shaq were as a "Robin" to Shaq, not as the leader fo the team. Bryant is probably in the realm just under GOAT, with Larry Bird.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Tiger is the GOAT of Golf. Do you agree?

I don't think anyone can say that with certainty given that Jack has 18 major championships (compared to Tiger's 14) and a whopping 19 2nd place major finishes. That's 37 majors in which he was top 2.

Nicklaus played against elite legendary talent at the time, I think Jack would be a large favorite to be considered the GOAT of golf.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Isiah Thomas. Won back to backs in between the Lakers/Celtic and Bull's era. Evidence: Wasn't enough uproar when he wasn't selected to the Olympic team.

Overall as far as player's performance/impact compared to how much they are mentioned and referred to, definitely agreed.

Hakeem Olajuwon won two when Jordan stepped away. I don't feel he gets enough credit

Hakeem shouldn't be docked at all because Jordan left. The Rockets had the Bulls Number when they played them with Jordan in the early 90's. I'd imagine the Rockets would have won the 2 they did whether Jordan played or not.

Meanwhile, Jordan didn't step away for 2 seasons, he came back mid-season in 95-96 and his Bulls lost to the Magic in the playoffs. He had his chance and he lost, so he only stepped away from one. So many Jordan-ites (not saying you) recite this line even though it's so obviously factually incorrect. It's as if they have their own bible of the man.

Dwayne Wade did it with Shaq then Lebron.

I don't think Wade is underrated, I think he'll forever be known in the same plane as Scottie Pippen as the best "Robin" to ever play.

Pau Gasol won 2 titles with Kobe after Shaq left.

I think Gasol will always be underrated to an extent, but how intrical was he is a question. He was an all-star sure, but I don't think there's some crime by not mentioning Gasol, just my opinion.

 

[22lcidw]

I still vote Jordan but that's because i under rate Lebron. Probably more so tan any other player in NBA history.

I used to do it to Kobe until he retired then I finally was able to admit how great he was.

I'm getting there with Lebron.

Oh, same way for years Tiger was underrated. It wasn't until his last masters he and I could finally tell people to fuck off as far as him being the GOAT. Because at that point people were saying he would NEVER win another one. When he did, that sealed it for me. Tiger is the GOAT of Golf. Do you agree?

Tiger's career ended up uneven. His personal life may have taken him down. Until that happened, he was on course for GOAT.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Tiger's career ended up uneven. His personal life may have taken him down. Until that happened, he was on course for GOAT.

What do you base that off of? I think he's easily the 2nd greatest, but besides modern bias, what vaults him over Jack?

 

[Mr. Friscus]

How would I remember that? Did you say that? Also, what does this have to do with anything?


It stands to reason that he either didnt make the PO's or lost before the finals though correct? There are only so many outcomes for any team simply.

1. not making the PO's
2. losing before the finals
3. losing in the finals
4, winning a championship.

I would say those outcomes are in order from worst to best wouldnt you? So it's better to have lost IN the finals than before it. Im not sure why LeBron gets punished because he made it deeper into the PO's than Jordan more often.

I absolutely agree with this. Jordan disciples are VERY specific in where they define greatness, which only promotes the areas of Jordan's greatness and ignores his weaknesses.

Often times, if I take the time to debate a Jordan disciple, it's as if Jordan's career was:

• Scoring points while jacking up the most shots in the NBA = the highest form of NBA greatness
• Ignoring his ass being swept out of the playoffs multiple times
• 63 pts vs. the Celtics in the playoffs while ignoring it was in a loss
• Defeating the pistons (earned)
• 3 championships, but ignoring with very solid team dynamics, success only after the addiction of Pippen/Phil Jackson (who went on to win 11 titles as an NBA head coach, 5 without MJ), and over minimal/moderate historical teams (an ancient 80's relic Lakers, a Portland team that was never beyond very good, and an admittedly near great Suns)
• assumptions that the bulls would have won 94-95 despite both the Knicks and Rockets who are easily capable of beating them that year.
• Ignoring that the bulls lost WITH Jordan in 95-96 in the playoffs... as if it never happened, POOF. They say he left for 2 years. He didn't. Fact check false.
• 3 more championships with elite support over largely inferior teams historically (Kemp/Payton Sonics, and Malone/Stockton Jazz who had Bryan Russell to guard MJ)
• Ignoring Jordan's Wizards career.

Even when comparing Russell's 11 to Jordan's 6 championships, it's often said that "Well Jordan was 6 for 6, Russell lost one!". How desperate do you have to be to make that argument?

Meanwhile, Lebron making so many finals in a row is unprecedented and beyond what Jordan did. Jordan had every opportunity to lead his 80's bulls over the Celtics but couldn't do it. If he was so damned mythological and would ALWAYS make EVERY shot that others missed... how did it take so long for him to finally get a ring? It's insane.

LeBron's length of greatness is exponentially greater than Jordan's. He's a top 10 guy in the league now in his 21st year. He was the best player in the world for longer than Jordan played in total and he's not done. You never say never but his scoring record is very unlikely to be broken. He will probably end his career with close to and possible more than 45k points. Durant has 28k right now. That's how far ahead LeBron is. LeBron is also top 5 in assists and will end up top 3 and possibly 2nd only to Stockton who was an assist machine. Jordan is 51. LeBron is 31 in rebounds. Jordan 148.

Lebron's all-around game outshines Jordan's high-shot, high scoring career. Jordan definitely proved he can be an all-around player at times in his career, but generally Jordan was definitely the greatest scorer from the guard position in history. That's not up to debate. But he cost his teams plenty of games by jacking up bad shots and missing last-second shots rather than passing. Lebron used to be crucified by the Jordan-jacking ESPN media because he would dare to PASS the ball to the most open player in rhythm rather than force up some contested, fade-away shot. Jordan missed so many of those, and it's ignored. His ones that went in are iconic, but some sort of "Be like Mike" mythology (via the commercial with full financial push from Nike and the NBA) was established where if anyone missed a last second shot, some ESPN-era douch would say "Jordan would have made that". It has become ridiculous.

Oh, and if you dare to say such things on social media platforms, you're constantly smeared as a "Lebronsexual" or a "Lebron d*ck rider"... I gave up a LONG time ago trying to have good faith sports arguments on any facebook/social media platform

 

[sealybobo]

How would I remember that? Did you say that? Also, what does this have to do with anything?


It stands to reason that he either didnt make the PO's or lost before the finals though correct? There are only so many outcomes for any team simply.

1. not making the PO's
2. losing before the finals
3. losing in the finals
4, winning a championship.

I would say those outcomes are in order from worst to best wouldnt you? So it's better to have lost IN the finals than before it. Im not sure why LeBron gets punished because he made it deeper into the PO's than Jordan more often.



There's 2 considerations IMO. Peak and length of greatness.

Jordan's peak might be higher. Lets assume that it is. The delta between the 2 isnt much.

LeBron's length of greatness is exponentially greater than Jordan's. He's a top 10 guy in the league now in his 21st year. He was the best player in the world for longer than Jordan played in total and he's not done. You never say never but his scoring record is very unlikely to be broken. He will probably end his career with close to and possible more than 45k points. Durant has 28k right now. That's how far ahead LeBron is. LeBron is also top 5 in assists and will end up top 3 and possibly 2nd only to Stockton who was an assist machine. Jordan is 51. LeBron is 31 in rebounds. Jordan 148.

You see??? You just proved my point. Do you see how much I under rate him? LOL.

Jordan was GREAT his rookie year. He didn't have the team plus he needed to get more muscular. But LA, Boston and Detroit all knew he was the best. He finally took over and won 3 in a row. Lebron never did that. I don't need to tell you Jordan's story but he took 2 years off, and came back and immediately won 3 more. It was fairytale. The only thing fairytale about Lebron's career is he's had 20 cracks at it to get 4.

Jordan would have OWNED Lebron. Lebron would have got 30 points but shut down by Jordan's D. When it mattered. Jordan made great men look stupid. He would have frustrated Lebron. Jordan would have figured Lebron out.

I'm telling you it's Jordan A1 and Lebron A2. Do you think I'm under estimating Lebron? Sounds like you think Lebron is the GOAT.

 

[sealybobo]

How would I remember that? Did you say that? Also, what does this have to do with anything?


It stands to reason that he either didnt make the PO's or lost before the finals though correct? There are only so many outcomes for any team simply.

1. not making the PO's
2. losing before the finals
3. losing in the finals
4, winning a championship.

I would say those outcomes are in order from worst to best wouldnt you? So it's better to have lost IN the finals than before it. Im not sure why LeBron gets punished because he made it deeper into the PO's than Jordan more often.



There's 2 considerations IMO. Peak and length of greatness.

Jordan's peak might be higher. Lets assume that it is. The delta between the 2 isnt much.

LeBron's length of greatness is exponentially greater than Jordan's. He's a top 10 guy in the league now in his 21st year. He was the best player in the world for longer than Jordan played in total and he's not done. You never say never but his scoring record is very unlikely to be broken. He will probably end his career with close to and possible more than 45k points. Durant has 28k right now. That's how far ahead LeBron is. LeBron is also top 5 in assists and will end up top 3 and possibly 2nd only to Stockton who was an assist machine. Jordan is 51. LeBron is 31 in rebounds. Jordan 148.

Here's an example. Barkley scored 21, 42, 24 and 32 against Jordan in 1993 finals. Lebron would have too. Maybe even more. But Jordan would have won.