Who is the most underrated NBA player in history? My 2 submissions.

[22lcidw]

What do you base that off of? I think he's easily the 2nd greatest, but besides modern bias, what vaults him over Jack?

If he did not collapse.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

If he did not collapse.

“If”?

You’re going to vault someone upwards for something they didn’t do?

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Here's an example. Barkley scored 21, 42, 24 and 32 against Jordan in 1993 finals. Lebron would have too. Maybe even more. But Jordan would have won.

Correction: Barkley and Jordan didn’t match up against each other. Barkley was a SF/PF, Jordan was a SG. Barkley scored those against the Bulls team, primarily Pippen, Horace Grant, or Scott Williams.

Question: Was the 1993 NBA Finals a 1-on-1 affair between Jordan and Barkley? Because that’s what you’re suggesting in your words.

 

[Blaster]

Pistol Pete Maravich.

 

[sealybobo]

Correction: Barkley and Jordan didn’t match up against each other. Barkley was a SF/PF, Jordan was a SG. Barkley scored those against the Bulls team, primarily Pippen, Horace Grant, or Scott Williams.

Question: Was the 1993 NBA Finals a 1-on-1 affair between Jordan and Barkley? Because that’s what you’re suggesting in your words.

No but if Jordan played him one on one he'd kick his ass.

Lebron is sort of built like Barkley was. It's one of the reasons people think he's the goat. He's bigger and stronger.

Let's face it. Lebron was made in a lab. But Jordan was batman. Batman was human but could beat immortals. How? He had a stronger will to win.

Natural athlete? Lebron.

Natural winner? Jordan.

 

[22lcidw]

“If”?

You’re going to vault someone upwards for something they didn’t do?

At some point in his career, he was not good. He did it for a certain number of years and then did not. A juggernaut to an also ran. Personal problems. The lack of longevity is the only negative.

 

[sealybobo]

What do you base that off of? I think he's easily the 2nd greatest, but besides modern bias, what vaults him over Jack?

Tiger absolutely owned the sport.

Jack played 586 times on the PGA Tour with 73 wins. That's a winning % of 12.5%. Tiger has played just 358 times on the PGA Tour with 82 wins. A winning % of 23%.Nov 17, 2023

Major victories: Jack Nicklaus, at 18 majors, remains the standard. Jack: 18 (winning percentage: 17.3%). Tiger: 15 (17.6%). When Tiger won his 14th major, at the 2008 U.S. Open, he was just 33, at the peak of his game and, frankly, aside from the leg issue he appeared to still be peaking.

 

[sealybobo]

In no particular order

1. Moses Malone
3 time NBA MVP
13 Time All star
4 time all NBA first team
6 time rebounding leader
1 NBA championship
1 NBA Finals MVP
11th all time scoring leader
Top Scoring Averages: 31.1, 27.8, 25.8, 24.8
Top Rebounding Averages: 15.3, 14.8, 14.7, 14.5
Career Playoff Average: 22.1ppg, 13.8rpg


2. Elgin Baylor
All NBA First team 10 times
Rookie of the year in 1958-59
11 time all star
Finished 2nd in MVP one year, 3rd in MVP 3 times

This guy doesn't have the "leads the league" stats (he played in the era of Wilt), but is a total beast. Look at his first 5 years in the league
1958-59: 24.9 ppg, 15 rpg, 4.3 apg
1959-60: 29.6 ppg, 16.4 rpg, 3.5 apg
1960-61: 34.8 ppg, 19.8 rpg, 5.1 apg
1961-62: 38.3 ppg, 18.6 rpg, 4.6 apg
1962-63: 34.0 ppg, 14.3 rpg, 4.6 apg

Throughout the 60's afterwards he had points per game scores of: 25.4, 27.1, 16.6, 26.6, 26.0, 24.8, and 24.0

Why do you think either of these guys are under rated? We all know them as two of the greats.

In 2022, to commemorate the NBA's 75th Anniversary The Athletic ranked their top 75 players of all time, and named Baylor as the 23rd greatest player in NBA history. He is often listed as the greatest NBA player never to win a championship, although this is not technically true.

What more do you want?

Today, I'd say the most under rated guys in the league are the stars on teams that don't make the playoffs. For example the Piston's are on right now. Cunningham is a beast. But who knows this? He never gets to shine in the playoffs.

I don't blame good players on shitty teams who insist on leaving. I know it sucks when you lose your superstar but I don't blame Barry Sanders for wanting to leave the Lions after giving them 10 years.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

No but if Jordan played him one on one he'd kick his ass.

Barkley? Likely. Lebron? Very doubtful.

Lebron is sort of built like Barkley was. It's one of the reasons people think he's the goat. He's bigger and stronger.

Lebron is a better scorer, athlete, shooter, and floor general than Barkley was. I love Charles, but to try to downplay Lebron here is comical.

Let's face it. Lebron was made in a lab. But Jordan was batman. Batman was human but could beat immortals. How? He had a stronger will to win.

Natural athlete? Lebron.

Natural winner? Jordan.

Oh geez.. here comes that "will to win" BS. Some mythical, made up attribute that other players must not have.

If MJ had such an attribute, why did he lose so often in the playoffs? Why did he choke away so many games in his career? It's as if you're writing about a Demigod.

Here's a reality that we know. Jordan left after the 93-94 season. The next year, the Bulls won 57 games and made it into the Eastern Conference finals, and should have made the finals.

Meanwhile, Lebron left the Cavs in 2011 as they were a 50-60 win team. They kept the same core and added Antawn Jamison, and they won 20 games.

The Bulls were an elite team without Jordan, which goes to show that it wasn't Jordan who CAUSED the bulls to be good. Jordan was the biggest piece, but he had an elite team supporting him.

Meanwhile, Lebron elevated a 20 win team to 60+ wins. When MJ had sub-par teams early in his career, they were usually .500 teams at best.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Tiger absolutely owned the sport.

Jack played 586 times on the PGA Tour with 73 wins. That's a winning % of 12.5%. Tiger has played just 358 times on the PGA Tour with 82 wins. A winning % of 23%.Nov 17, 2023

Major victories: Jack Nicklaus, at 18 majors, remains the standard. Jack: 18 (winning percentage: 17.3%). Tiger: 15 (17.6%). When Tiger won his 14th major, at the 2008 U.S. Open, he was just 33, at the peak of his game and, frankly, aside from the leg issue he appeared to still be peaking.

The stat that is undeniable for Jack is that not only has he won more majors by 4, but he has 19 second place finishes. That's proof of a completely dominant player of all time.

 

[sealybobo]

Barkley? Likely. Lebron? Very doubtful.

Lebron is a better scorer, athlete, shooter, and floor general than Barkley was. I love Charles, but to try to downplay Lebron here is comical.

Oh geez.. here comes that "will to win" BS. Some mythical, made up attribute that other players must not have.

If MJ had such an attribute, why did he lose so often in the playoffs? Why did he choke away so many games in his career? It's as if you're writing about a Demigod.

Here's a reality that we know. Jordan left after the 93-94 season. The next year, the Bulls won 57 games and made it into the Eastern Conference finals, and should have made the finals.

Meanwhile, Lebron left the Cavs in 2011 as they were a 50-60 win team. They kept the same core and added Antawn Jamison, and they won 20 games.

The Bulls were an elite team without Jordan, which goes to show that it wasn't Jordan who CAUSED the bulls to be good. Jordan was the biggest piece, but he had an elite team supporting him.

Meanwhile, Lebron elevated a 20 win team to 60+ wins. When MJ had sub-par teams early in his career, they were usually .500 teams at best.

Yes, will to win. I wrestled this black god my senior year. He took 3rd his Junior year I didn't even make it to the dance my junior year. I only started wrestling in 10th grade so I had some learning to do. Now don't get me wrong, I was a Greek God just like he was a black God but he was a waaaaay better wrestler than me. The first 3 or 4 times we wrestled, he manhandled me. But wrestling me wasn't fun. And each time i got beat I learned.

Talk about wanting it more. All I had to do was beat him and then I would be "ALL STATE" which means I will finish in the top 6 and get a medal. Basically I couldn't have dreamed of making that podium especially when I lost my very first match day one at the State tournament. All my friends and coach thought I was done but I ran though the losers bracket and there I find myself facing him. No way I'm going to win right? He's much more naturally gifted than me plus years more experience.

I whipped his ass!

You must not be an athlete. MJ got in everyone's heads. Everyone in the league believed he was the man. And when he played them he showed it.

I know the records been broken but didn't Jordan and his team break the record for most wins in a season? Has Lebron EVER come close to doing that?

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Yes, will to win. I wrestled this black god my senior year. He took 3rd his Junior year I didn't even make it to the dance my junior year. I only started wrestling in 10th grade so I had some learning to do. Now don't get me wrong, I was a Greek God just like he was a black God but he was a waaaaay better wrestler than me. The first 3 or 4 times we wrestled, he manhandled me. But wrestling me wasn't fun. And each time i got beat I learned.

Talk about wanting it more. All I had to do was beat him and then I would be "ALL STATE" which means I will finish in the top 6 and get a medal. Basically I couldn't have dreamed of making that podium especially when I lost my very first match day one at the State tournament. All my friends and coach thought I was done but I ran though the losers bracket and there I find myself facing him. No way I'm going to win right? He's much more naturally gifted than me plus years more experience.

I whipped his ass!

You must not be an athlete.

I'm happy for your success, but your anecdotal story holds no weight, and you're incorrect that I've never been an athlete.

MJ got in everyone's heads. Everyone in the league believed he was the man. And when he played them he showed it.

WTF are you talking about? How did he "get in everyone's heads"? When he came into the league, he scored a lot, but he shot the most in the league. He was a volume scorer, which we've seen not be successful when you don't have the right organization and cast (Iverson, Carmelo).

I know the records been broken but didn't Jordan and his team break the record for most wins in a season? Has Lebron EVER come close to doing that?

1. Jordan's 96 bulls won 72 games, the 2016 Warriors won 73
2. Lebron dragged a 20-25 win team to 66 wins in 2008-09 and 61 wins in 2009-10. Jordan couldn't drag a low-end team beyond a .500 record.

Meanwhile, you addressed none of my significant points about the bulls being elite without Jordan while the Cavs collapsed without Lebron.

You spewed platitudes, as if ESPN/Nike programmed you.

I'm happy to talk about the subject, but if you're just going to spew claims without support... you'll have a tough time having a productive discussion.

 

[Barryluz1960]

In no particular order

1. Moses Malone
3 time NBA MVP
13 Time All star
4 time all NBA first team
6 time rebounding leader
1 NBA championship
1 NBA Finals MVP
11th all time scoring leader
Top Scoring Averages: 31.1, 27.8, 25.8, 24.8
Top Rebounding Averages: 15.3, 14.8, 14.7, 14.5
Career Playoff Average: 22.1ppg, 13.8rpg


2. Elgin Baylor
All NBA First team 10 times
Rookie of the year in 1958-59
11 time all star
Finished 2nd in MVP one year, 3rd in MVP 3 times

This guy doesn't have the "leads the league" stats (he played in the era of Wilt), but is a total beast. Look at his first 5 years in the league
1958-59: 24.9 ppg, 15 rpg, 4.3 apg
1959-60: 29.6 ppg, 16.4 rpg, 3.5 apg
1960-61: 34.8 ppg, 19.8 rpg, 5.1 apg
1961-62: 38.3 ppg, 18.6 rpg, 4.6 apg
1962-63: 34.0 ppg, 14.3 rpg, 4.6 apg

Throughout the 60's afterwards he had points per game scores of: 25.4, 27.1, 16.6, 26.6, 26.0, 24.8, and 24.0
Rebounds of: 12.0, 12.8, 9.6, 12.8, 12.2, 10.6, 10.4

 

[sealybobo]

I'm happy for your success, but your anecdotal story holds no weight, and you're incorrect that I've never been an athlete.

WTF are you talking about? How did he "get in everyone's heads"? When he came into the league, he scored a lot, but he shot the most in the league. He was a volume scorer, which we've seen not be successful when you don't have the right organization and cast (Iverson, Carmelo).

1. Jordan's 96 bulls won 72 games, the 2016 Warriors won 73
2. Lebron dragged a 20-25 win team to 66 wins in 2008-09 and 61 wins in 2009-10. Jordan couldn't drag a low-end team beyond a .500 record.

Meanwhile, you addressed none of my significant points about the bulls being elite without Jordan while the Cavs collapsed without Lebron.

You spewed platitudes, as if ESPN/Nike programmed you.

I'm happy to talk about the subject, but if you're just going to spew claims without support... you'll have a tough time having a productive discussion.

Then all I got is imo, I think Jordan would have whipped his soft ass.

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Then all I got is imo, I think Jordan would have whipped his soft ass.

Really? That's it?

A boisterous Jordan mark making massive claims.. and then when confronted with the first resistance to the "Jordan is god" mantra you fold like an accordion?

I have to say, I'm disappointed. There's a ton of context in any GOAT debate across eras. I like the discussion with specifics, not mere ESPN/Nike-laced "Be Like Mike" platitudes

 

[sealybobo]

Really? That's it?

A boisterous Jordan mark making massive claims.. and then when confronted with the first resistance to the "Jordan is god" mantra you fold like an accordion?

I have to say, I'm disappointed. There's a ton of context in any GOAT debate across eras. I like the discussion with specifics, not mere ESPN/Nike-laced "Be Like Mike" platitudes

Statistically, on paper, logically, it may be hard to argue. But!,,if we could, I’d let you and Lebron put a dream team together and me and jordan would and two things would become obvious right away.

1. Jordan’s team is killing Lebron’s team and more importantly

2. Jordan is the leader of his team, Lebron is not.

Lebron is deferring to his other guys. He doesn’t want the ball in his hands for the final shot. Jordan does.

And I would bet you $100.

Lebron misses that last shot. Or gets cramps and can’t even play in the 4th. But he got 30 points

 

[Couchpotato]

Statistically, on paper, logically, it may be hard to argue. But!,,if we could, I’d let you and Lebron put a dream team together and me and jordan would and two things would become obvious right away.

1. Jordan’s team is killing Lebron’s team and more importantly

2. Jordan is the leader of his team, Lebron is not.

Lebron is deferring to his other guys. He doesn’t want the ball in his hands for the final shot. Jordan does.

And I would bet you $100.

Lebron misses that last shot. Or gets cramps and can’t even play in the 4th. But he got 30 points

For his career, LeBron is 7-15 on go-ahead shots in the final five seconds of playoff games compared to a 5-11 mark for Jordan. He's done it by hitting 3s, runners, off-balance jumpers, drives to the cup, you name it.


That means LeBron has not only taken the last shot more often he's hit it at a greater clip than Jordan.

If you take your face out of Jordan's lap you might have a better point of view on the subject.

 

[sealybobo]

For his career, LeBron is 7-15 on go-ahead shots in the final five seconds of playoff games compared to a 5-11 mark for Jordan. He's done it by hitting 3s, runners, off-balance jumpers, drives to the cup, you name it.


That means LeBron has not only taken the last shot more often he's hit it at a greater clip than Jordan.

If you take your face out of Jordan's lap you might have a better point of view on the subject.

Jordan 6 rights, all impressive. Lebron, none of his 4 were impressive.

I found this and it confirms what I'm saying:

Jordan won in the finals after getting food poisoning. Lebron got crampy cramps and couldn't continue. GTFO of here with that shit.

Jordan had nine seasons with a shooting percentage of over 50%, while LeBron James has had seven such seasons. Jordan led his team to 6 championships and never lost one, while Lebron didn't play up to par at times when his team needed him to be a leader.
On a per-game basis, Jordan is superior in the scoring department, but James grabs rebounds and dishes out assists at a higher rate
His unbeaten record in NBA Finals appearances (6-0) speaks volumes about his ability to perform at the highest level when it matters most.
While LeBron James has secured multiple championships, his Finals record does not match Jordan's perfect mark, creating a compelling argument for Jordan's superiority in clutch moments.

Michael Jordan's scoring prowess is legendary and sets him apart as one of the most prolific scorers in NBA history. Jordan won the scoring title ten times during his career and holds a career scoring average of 30.1 points per game, the highest in NBA history. His ability to take over games with his scoring, particularly in crunch time, is often cited as unparalleled.

hile LeBron is a tremendous scorer, Jordan's scoring acumen and his knack for hitting game-winning shots in critical moments have become iconic moments in basketball history.

Jordan's impact on the defensive end is an aspect where he’s typically considered superior to LeBron. Jordan was a tenacious defender, earning multiple NBA All-Defensive Team selections. His ability to lock down opponents, particularly in crucial moments, contributed significantly to the Bulls' success. While LeBron James is a capable defender, Michael Jordan's defensive accolades and his reputation as one of the best two-way players in the history of the game give him an edge in this comparison.

YOU'RE OUT OF YOUR MIND!!! You must be too young to remember MJ.

The competitive nature and killer instinct that Jordan displayed are often cited as intangible qualities that set him apart. Jordan's unparalleled work ethic and his demand for excellence from his teammates are legendary.

For those hoops fans who see Michael Jordan as superior to King James, their argument is rooted in his unparalleled success in the postseason, scoring prowess, defensive excellence, competitive nature, and cultural impact. While LeBron is undoubtedly one of the greatest players in NBA history, the combination of Jordan's on-court achievements, intangibles, and cultural significance contribute to his standing as the consensus choice for the greatest basketball player of all time.

 

[tyroneweaver]

Hardly, potatohead. Robertson would go through them as easily as King James, et al. They would have to learn (and this is big) how to shoot the three.

Paul Silas
Kurt Rambis

 

[Mr. Friscus]

Statistically, on paper, logically, it may be hard to argue. But!,,if we could, I’d let you and Lebron put a dream team together and me and jordan would and two things would become obvious right away.

1. Jordan’s team is killing Lebron’s team

Dude, you're spewing straight garbage out of your ass. Based on what?

and more importantly

2. Jordan is the leader of his team, Lebron is not.

Again, based on what? Your fantasies?

Lebron is deferring to his other guys. He doesn’t want the ball in his hands for the final shot. Jordan does.

Based on what? Lebron always has the ball when the game is on the line. He may pass it to the open man when the defense collapses, but that's nearly always the correct basketball play. Lebron will hit a set player in rhythm while Jordan is more likely to take an off-balance shot. Jordan made some great ones, but he missed a lot more. However, your whole premise is based on a mythology.

And I would bet you $100.

Since the bet is impossible to be carried out, no amount of posturing makes any difference.

Lebron misses that last shot. Or gets cramps and can’t even play in the 4th. But he got 30 points

Lebron made plenty of game winning shots, likely more than Jordan. You're so desperately grasping at straws here it's uncanny.

It's always so "facepalm" to watch Jordan disciples spew near religious claims of Jordan's other-wordly greatness, as if he never failed, won every game he played, and was never shown up or defeated. My wheelhouse was MJ's career. I watched the guy in real time. Modern Jordan zealots have a LOT of erroneous assumptions of MJ, likely because they were served near-propaganda from the NBA, Nike, and even Jordan's own "The Last Dance", which he produced as his own promotional tool.

The most laughable claim from you is that Jordan's "will to win" is somehow unmatched... as if Russell's 11 championships, Magic's 5 championships, Kareem's 5 championships, Bird's 3 championships, etc... are subpar to Michael. Let me clue you in on a convincing argument against simply jacking off MJ as the GOAT, as you seem to want to start the discussion from that point. No, the matter starts from the point that nobody is the GOAT, and you have to make convincing arguments to support a player's greatness. I'll use Lebron as my counter point since he seems to bother you so much

1. Jordan was the greatest scorer in the late 80's, but couldn't elevate his team beyond a nearly a .500 record, only to be swept out of the playoffs by the Celtics year in and year out. Meanwhile, Lebron carried a team of scrubs to the 2007 NBA finals against a Spurs Dynasty. Jordan couldn't even get scrubs out of the first round. Jordan jacked up shots, he scored the most, but he also wasn't necessarily efficient. Think Allen Iverson or Carmelo Anthony.. players who are incredibly skilled but don't create successful teams.
2. Jordan "retired" (aka, was suspended) in 1993-94, and in 1994-95 the Bulls won 57 games and made the Conference finals with Pippen and coach Phil Jackson, only missing the NBA finals by a New York miracle. He accounted for minimal games won. Meanwhile, Lebron left the Cavs for the first time as a 60 win team, then the Cavs only won 20+ games the following year despite keeping nearly all the players and adding low-caliber All-Star Antoine Jamison. Lebron meant WAY more wins to a team than MJ.
3. Jordan's Bulls played historically sub-par teams in the finals, as Jordan seemed to wait out the golden age of the 80's (Magic and Bird) until they got old so he could succeed. The bulls beat an ancient Lakers for their first title, a one-and-done Portland team with Clyde Drexler as the best player, and then a solid Suns team (the best team they'd beat). In the second run, they beat a one-and-done Sonics team, and a never-was Utah Jazz team twice. In the history of the NBA, Russell had Wilt, Magic had Bird, and MJ had... noone, and not because he was so much more great, but because the NBA had a severe valley in the mid-late 90's in all-time great talent... it's a low spot in NBA history, and that's where Jordan flourished. I'm not blaming him, but he truly never had to go through another all-time great. Meanwhile, Lebron's Heat took down one of the greatest dynasties in NBA history during their prime twice in the Duncan-Parker-Ginobli Spurs, and also took down the Steph Curry-Klay Thompson 73 win Warriors. Those 3 Finals wins are far beyond anything Jordan's bulls beat.
4. Jordan's competition at his positions was absolutely historically subpar. Jordan was one of the first to utilize the Bo Jackson mantra of cross training and lifting to enhance play on the court, but that was a Bulls systemic decision, not some MJ wizardry. Jordan regularly faced slow white guys or any-colored non-alltime-great players throughout the 90's, let's look at some examples: Dan Majarle, Jeff Hornicek, Hershey Hawkins, John Starks, Gerald Wilkins, etc. Jordan had minimal opposition at his position, and not necessarily because he was so great, but because the entire league was in a clear swell of talent compared to the 80's. That's why he was able to mount up so many NBA defensive player of the year awards at his position... he's a great defender, but he got great at the right time. Meanwhile, Lebron had to face Kevin Durant, Kevin Garnett, Carmelo Anthony, Bosh, Dirk, Webber, Khawai Leonard, Paul George, Paul Pierce.. FAR greater talent.

Hell, I could go on. But you seem to bite hard on the Jordan mythology and didn't watch it in real time. Jordan was re-created in the media as a "working man's" player.. in truth he was a whiney Diva who would bitch to the refs nonstop (and bitch to his owner and GM about players on his team) ... and often live at the free throw line like James Harden. He also completely pressed traveling rules in the NBA at the time, and was nearly untouchable as the refs would treat the guy like litmus paper. He really wasn't that tough beyond having to put up with some hard fouls from the Pistons during his time of being dominated by the "Bad Boys". All of that is overblown completely by modernists who weren't there.

Jordan is an all-time great player, but by no means a clear-cut GOAT. Only low-information fans think that. I can use multiple players to cut holes in the "Jordan is the GOAT" argument like swiss cheese. It's quite simple actually.

My take? Don't be a moron and make absolute claims about who the GOAT of the NBA is, and treat different eras as seperate entities.