Who here "opposes" this simple Sanders' proposal?

[Arianrhod]

arian----you got a specialty?--------ever write a script for Viagra?

I'm not an MD.

nsaids is good ------IBUPROFEN-----only---no need for those SPINOFFS

NSAIDS are good, but they're overused and, more to the point, they're old drugs. Whatever R&D was done was done a long time ago, and the spinoffs are usually just tweaks on the old formulas or new indications for old drugs.

So the pharma sob story about how "We HAVE to charge 100xs what these drugs cost to make in order to recoup our R&D" is by and large bullshit.

And Big Pharma would still rather peddle painkillers and psychotropic meds to larger and larger patient cohorts than work on drugs that save lives.

There's a small company out of Boston that's doing far more interesting things, and they're not alone:

Vertex Pharmaceuticals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[flacaltenn]

One of Sanders' proposal is not only sane but doable if only congress was not a bunch of self-centered cowards...The proposal is to compel Medicare to openly negotiate with big pharmaceuticals companies for lower prices based on volume.....

Who would lose if this proposal were to become a reality? Big pharma's CEOs and board members who no longer could upgrade to more modern Lear jets every few years.

Ok...Playing devil's advocate....What makes you think the pharmaceutical co's will want to negotiate?

They might not. Until Bernie sics the IRS, OSHA, DOJ, DOlabor, Immigration, SEC, FDA, and maybe even a drone strike on them. That's why demagogues like Sanders (or Trump for that matter) shouldn't have those armies of the damned at their command..

FaCal be at ease. Sanders has his head in the clouds------Trump---for all
his CHEST-TRUMPING and spit and vinegar-------is ---in the end---a realist

I more frightened of a narcissistic, meglomaniac with NO political convictions having the power to sic the minions of the damned on parties he's negotiating with for a better deal . And yes -- that would be Trump..

 

[flacaltenn]

no doubt that Sanders is quite socialistic-------ok ---fine with me----but as far as how is programs will be FINANCED_------he seems to have NO IDEA and certainly no viable
plan

Funny, it seems to be all spelled out on his website.

Oh sorry ----- that thing is called a "link".

None of which can be accomplished without massive tax increases and new taxes.

Red herring. The poster claimed that the candidate had, and I quote, "NO IDEA how his programs would be financed" ---- so I linked her to the webpage that spells out exactly how those programs would be financed.

Therefore she's wrong, and I win. Again.

You don't come CLOSE to winning with that tripe... And I quote

The typical middle class family would save over $5,000 under this plan.

Last year, the average working family paid $4,955 in premiums and $1,318 in deductibles to private health insurance companies. Under this plan, a family of four earning $50,000 would pay just $466 per year to the single-payer program, amounting to a savings of over $5,800 for that family each year.

That's the largest load of BullCrap ever to be laid on the campaign trail..

He repeated that $500/yr answer to a 20 something father of 4 in some "town hall" farce.

As I said pages ago -- You could not provide Medicare or EVEN WELL CARE for that guy and 3 cats with that kind of premium.. It leaves NOTHING at the end of the year for the $15,000 broken finger that WILL turn up sooner or later..

Quite pissing about "winning" and actually THINK..

Literacy is a lost art.

Once again for those in the third row ----
(step 1) the poster maintained that the candidate had "no idea" how to fund his program....
(step 2) I then pointed her to the page that explicitly spells out that idea. Which page cannot exist if he has, as claimed "no idea".

And yet --- the page does indeed exist.

Therefore she's wrong. What's actually IN it is irrelevant.

Reading is fun-duh-mental.

What's THERE is not a plan, probably not even "an idea" in the sense that it proves Sanders has no idea what things cost or why they cost that much.

The mere fact that he's dumping BullCrap on an Internet page does not make him brilliant or make his "ideas" any more worthy of consideration..

 

[irosie91]

arian----you got a specialty?--------ever write a script for Viagra?

I'm not an MD.

nsaids is good ------IBUPROFEN-----only---no need for those SPINOFFS

NSAIDS are good, but they're overused and, more to the point, they're old drugs. Whatever R&D was done was done a long time ago, and the spinoffs are usually just tweaks on the old formulas or new indications for old drugs.

So the pharma sob story about how "We HAVE to charge 100xs what these drugs cost to make in order to recoup our R&D" is by and large bullshit.

And Big Pharma would still rather peddle painkillers and psychotropic meds to larger and larger patient cohorts than work on drugs that save lives.

There's a small company out of Boston that's doing far more interesting things, and they're not alone:

Vertex Pharmaceuticals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

educate the docs------to educate the patients-------no need for DRUG
ADVERTISING-------it should be outlawed. ------------the era of the
CLAMOURING for Viagra------and ITS spinoffs-------was kinda disgusting

 

[Pogo]

Funny, it seems to be all spelled out on his website.

Oh sorry ----- that thing is called a "link".

None of which can be accomplished without massive tax increases and new taxes.

Red herring. The poster claimed that the candidate had, and I quote, "NO IDEA how his programs would be financed" ---- so I linked her to the webpage that spells out exactly how those programs would be financed.

Therefore she's wrong, and I win. Again.

You don't come CLOSE to winning with that tripe... And I quote

The typical middle class family would save over $5,000 under this plan.

Last year, the average working family paid $4,955 in premiums and $1,318 in deductibles to private health insurance companies. Under this plan, a family of four earning $50,000 would pay just $466 per year to the single-payer program, amounting to a savings of over $5,800 for that family each year.

That's the largest load of BullCrap ever to be laid on the campaign trail..

He repeated that $500/yr answer to a 20 something father of 4 in some "town hall" farce.

As I said pages ago -- You could not provide Medicare or EVEN WELL CARE for that guy and 3 cats with that kind of premium.. It leaves NOTHING at the end of the year for the $15,000 broken finger that WILL turn up sooner or later..

Quite pissing about "winning" and actually THINK..

Literacy is a lost art.

Once again for those in the third row ----
(step 1) the poster maintained that the candidate had "no idea" how to fund his program....
(step 2) I then pointed her to the page that explicitly spells out that idea. Which page cannot exist if he has, as claimed "no idea".

And yet --- the page does indeed exist.

Therefore she's wrong. What's actually IN it is irrelevant.

Reading is fun-duh-mental.

What's THERE is not a plan, probably not even "an idea" in the sense that it proves Sanders has no idea what things cost or why they cost that much.

The mere fact that he's dumping BullCrap on an Internet page does not make him brilliant or make his "ideas" any more worthy of consideration..

Again --- you're taking issue with the contents and thereby dismissing them. But that does not change the fact that those contents EXIST.

Your assessment of whether you think the basis works or not is in fact irrelevant. Nor did anyone bring up "brilliance" or "worthy of consideration". That's your deflection.

 

[irosie91]

One of Sanders' proposal is not only sane but doable if only congress was not a bunch of self-centered cowards...The proposal is to compel Medicare to openly negotiate with big pharmaceuticals companies for lower prices based on volume.....

Who would lose if this proposal were to become a reality? Big pharma's CEOs and board members who no longer could upgrade to more modern Lear jets every few years.

Ok...Playing devil's advocate....What makes you think the pharmaceutical co's will want to negotiate?

They might not. Until Bernie sics the IRS, OSHA, DOJ, DOlabor, Immigration, SEC, FDA, and maybe even a drone strike on them. That's why demagogues like Sanders (or Trump for that matter) shouldn't have those armies of the damned at their command..

FaCal be at ease. Sanders has his head in the clouds------Trump---for all
his CHEST-TRUMPING and spit and vinegar-------is ---in the end---a realist

I more frightened of a narcissistic, meglomaniac with NO political convictions having the power to sic the minions of the damned on parties he's negotiating with for a better deal . And yes -- that would be Trump..

I ASSURE YOU-------you did not have to NAME---the NARCISSISTIC MEGALOMANIAC.........however-------in the end he is a realist

 

[flacaltenn]

Kill the Advertising, like all other Nations....

And why not raise the prices slightly on all the other countries that buy their drugs from Pharma at a discount of 10 times less than we buy our drugs from Pharma....?

In other words, why should Americans cover all the R & D costs for the rest of the world who also buys these drugs, through our higher prices and through our taxes that are given for all the R & D?

It should be a shared expense, not ALL on our shoulders for everyone else who buys them.

You really have an issue with informing folks about pharmaceuticals that are available to them? I certainly don't understand that position. People NEED to be proactive about their own health. AND informed. And the 20 mins with your Doc is certainly NOT all you need to know in a year.

It's ridiculous to ban Pharma from advertising products. Unless you live in a country where you're NOT ALLOWED to receive medications that aren't "covered" under your single payer.. They don't WANT informed patients. They want one size fits all and case numbers -- not participants in their own healthcare.

And the reason research and FDA approval costs are re-couped in the US is because those compliance costs are HIGHER here. And the US will not accept the equivalent "compliance, safety testing" results from other countries.

With the availability of information online, the only consumers targeted by those "ask your doctor if X is right for you" TV ads are seniors and men with ED, and the last thing doctors need is these folks showing up in their offices every week looking for the magical cure to the Disease of the Week.

If pharma companies wanted to do something useful, they could run PSAs warning consumers not to jump onto every shyster website promising "Cure Diabetes in 90 Days Without Diet or Exercise!" or "Apple Cider Vinegar will restore your energy, lower your blood pressure, and give you the stamina of a 30-year-old! You won't need anything else!" or, more insidious, the plethora of blog sites preaching the unsupported anecdotal "evidence" that vaccines cause autism.

Truth is, Big Pharma makes its money on Viagra and NSAIDs, not on cutting-edge drugs. It tends to sell off its "orphan" molecules to small biotech companies where the real breakthroughs are being made.

arian----you got a specialty?--------ever write a script for Viagra?

nsaids is good ------IBUPROFEN-----only---no need for those SPINOFFS

It's no skin off their sheepskin to write a script for ED meds. If it gets the patient to pay more attention to his/her REAL issues -- the doc wins that round. 20 minutes a year is NOT ample "education"..

 

[irosie91]

Kill the Advertising, like all other Nations....

And why not raise the prices slightly on all the other countries that buy their drugs from Pharma at a discount of 10 times less than we buy our drugs from Pharma....?

In other words, why should Americans cover all the R & D costs for the rest of the world who also buys these drugs, through our higher prices and through our taxes that are given for all the R & D?

It should be a shared expense, not ALL on our shoulders for everyone else who buys them.

You really have an issue with informing folks about pharmaceuticals that are available to them? I certainly don't understand that position. People NEED to be proactive about their own health. AND informed. And the 20 mins with your Doc is certainly NOT all you need to know in a year.

It's ridiculous to ban Pharma from advertising products. Unless you live in a country where you're NOT ALLOWED to receive medications that aren't "covered" under your single payer.. They don't WANT informed patients. They want one size fits all and case numbers -- not participants in their own healthcare.

And the reason research and FDA approval costs are re-couped in the US is because those compliance costs are HIGHER here. And the US will not accept the equivalent "compliance, safety testing" results from other countries.

With the availability of information online, the only consumers targeted by those "ask your doctor if X is right for you" TV ads are seniors and men with ED, and the last thing doctors need is these folks showing up in their offices every week looking for the magical cure to the Disease of the Week.

If pharma companies wanted to do something useful, they could run PSAs warning consumers not to jump onto every shyster website promising "Cure Diabetes in 90 Days Without Diet or Exercise!" or "Apple Cider Vinegar will restore your energy, lower your blood pressure, and give you the stamina of a 30-year-old! You won't need anything else!" or, more insidious, the plethora of blog sites preaching the unsupported anecdotal "evidence" that vaccines cause autism.

Truth is, Big Pharma makes its money on Viagra and NSAIDs, not on cutting-edge drugs. It tends to sell off its "orphan" molecules to small biotech companies where the real breakthroughs are being made.

arian----you got a specialty?--------ever write a script for Viagra?

nsaids is good ------IBUPROFEN-----only---no need for those SPINOFFS

It's no skin off their sheepskin to write a script for ED meds. If it gets the patient to pay more attention to his/her REAL issues -- the doc wins that round. 20 minutes a year is NOT ample "education"..

sheeesh you are cynical-------you want the whole world to SEE BLUE?

I know a doctor who NEVER wrote a script for VIAGRA---ON PRINCIPLE-----
even a nagging stepson

 

[Arianrhod]

arian----you got a specialty?--------ever write a script for Viagra?

I'm not an MD.

nsaids is good ------IBUPROFEN-----only---no need for those SPINOFFS

NSAIDS are good, but they're overused and, more to the point, they're old drugs. Whatever R&D was done was done a long time ago, and the spinoffs are usually just tweaks on the old formulas or new indications for old drugs.

So the pharma sob story about how "We HAVE to charge 100xs what these drugs cost to make in order to recoup our R&D" is by and large bullshit.

And Big Pharma would still rather peddle painkillers and psychotropic meds to larger and larger patient cohorts than work on drugs that save lives.

There's a small company out of Boston that's doing far more interesting things, and they're not alone:

Vertex Pharmaceuticals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

educate the docs------to educate the patients-------no need for DRUG
ADVERTISING-------it should be outlawed. ------------the era of the
CLAMOURING for Viagra------and ITS spinoffs-------was kinda disgusting

DTC advertising has had mixed results. Before it was allowed, doctors often adopted this godlike treatment protocol and didn't tell the patient more than "they needed to know." (Patients were often not told how serious conditions like cancer or heart disease were, for example.)

Opening the floodgates to DTC marketing has had the opposite effect, not all of it good, but it does keep doctors on their toes. They're obligated to stay current with new meds and not rely just on old standbys because "I've been prescribing this drug for years."

I think it's a very good thing that patients are proactive in their own care, but that doesn't mean things don't sometimes go wrong.

 

[thereisnospoon]

No one can but they can point at the word Socialism and go "Eww Yucky"

no doubt that Sanders is quite socialistic-------ok ---fine with me----but as far as how is programs will be FINANCED_------he seems to have NO IDEA and certainly no viable
plan

Funny, it seems to be all spelled out on his website.

Oh sorry ----- that thing is called a "link".

None of which can be accomplished without massive tax increases and new taxes.

Red herring. The poster claimed that the candidate had, and I quote, "NO IDEA how his programs would be financed" ---- so I linked her to the webpage that spells out exactly how those programs would be financed.

Therefore she's wrong, and I win. Again.

No...YOU LOSE...Because those funding mechanisms leave out the source of the money...and that source can only be one place US.....
Government cannot spend trillions more by just moving the chess pieces around the board. Some one has GOT to pay....

 

[Pogo]

No one can but they can point at the word Socialism and go "Eww Yucky"

no doubt that Sanders is quite socialistic-------ok ---fine with me----but as far as how is programs will be FINANCED_------he seems to have NO IDEA and certainly no viable
plan

Funny, it seems to be all spelled out on his website.

Oh sorry ----- that thing is called a "link".

None of which can be accomplished without massive tax increases and new taxes.

Red herring. The poster claimed that the candidate had, and I quote, "NO IDEA how his programs would be financed" ---- so I linked her to the webpage that spells out exactly how those programs would be financed.

Therefore she's wrong, and I win. Again.

No...YOU LOSE...Because those funding mechanisms leave out the source of the money...and that source can only be one place US.....
Government cannot spend trillions more by just moving the chess pieces around the board. Some one has GOT to pay....

Nope. You're the initial deflector.

I'm gonna essplain this in terms so simple even you can figure it out.

Irosie declared "X does not exist".

So then I linked X. Which proves it DOES exist.

That's it.
The end.
All there is to it.
All she wrote.
Ain't no more.
Full stop.
Waiter, check please.

 

[Arianrhod]

No one can but they can point at the word Socialism and go "Eww Yucky"

no doubt that Sanders is quite socialistic-------ok ---fine with me----but as far as how is programs will be FINANCED_------he seems to have NO IDEA and certainly no viable
plan

Funny, it seems to be all spelled out on his website.

Oh sorry ----- that thing is called a "link".

None of which can be accomplished without massive tax increases and new taxes.

Red herring. The poster claimed that the candidate had, and I quote, "NO IDEA how his programs would be financed" ---- so I linked her to the webpage that spells out exactly how those programs would be financed.

Therefore she's wrong, and I win. Again.

No...YOU LOSE...Because those funding mechanisms leave out the source of the money...and that source can only be one place US.....
Government cannot spend trillions more by just moving the chess pieces around the board. Some one has GOT to pay....

So to you a proposal to negotiate LOWER prices means HIGHER prices. Interesting.

 

[irosie91]

arian----you got a specialty?--------ever write a script for Viagra?

I'm not an MD.

nsaids is good ------IBUPROFEN-----only---no need for those SPINOFFS

NSAIDS are good, but they're overused and, more to the point, they're old drugs. Whatever R&D was done was done a long time ago, and the spinoffs are usually just tweaks on the old formulas or new indications for old drugs.

So the pharma sob story about how "We HAVE to charge 100xs what these drugs cost to make in order to recoup our R&D" is by and large bullshit.

And Big Pharma would still rather peddle painkillers and psychotropic meds to larger and larger patient cohorts than work on drugs that save lives.

There's a small company out of Boston that's doing far more interesting things, and they're not alone:

Vertex Pharmaceuticals - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

educate the docs------to educate the patients-------no need for DRUG
ADVERTISING-------it should be outlawed. ------------the era of the
CLAMOURING for Viagra------and ITS spinoffs-------was kinda disgusting

DTC advertising has had mixed results. Before it was allowed, doctors often adopted this godlike treatment protocol and didn't tell the patient more than "they needed to know." (Patients were often not told how serious conditions like cancer or heart disease were, for example.)

Opening the floodgates to DTC marketing has had the opposite effect, not all of it good, but it does keep doctors on their toes. They're obligated to stay current with new meds and not rely just on old standbys because "I've been prescribing this drug for years."

I think it's a very good thing that patients are proactive in their own care, but that doesn't mean things don't sometimes go wrong.

I am ALL FOR educating the docs to educate the patients. ALL FOR IT. Proactive in their own care often ---LOTS--includes ----getting the information
from the TV

 

[irosie91]

no doubt that Sanders is quite socialistic-------ok ---fine with me----but as far as how is programs will be FINANCED_------he seems to have NO IDEA and certainly no viable
plan

Funny, it seems to be all spelled out on his website.

Oh sorry ----- that thing is called a "link".

None of which can be accomplished without massive tax increases and new taxes.

Red herring. The poster claimed that the candidate had, and I quote, "NO IDEA how his programs would be financed" ---- so I linked her to the webpage that spells out exactly how those programs would be financed.

Therefore she's wrong, and I win. Again.

No...YOU LOSE...Because those funding mechanisms leave out the source of the money...and that source can only be one place US.....
Government cannot spend trillions more by just moving the chess pieces around the board. Some one has GOT to pay....

Nope. You're the initial deflector.

I'm gonna essplain this in terms so simple even you can figure it out.

Irosie declared "X does not exist".

So then I linked X. Which proves it DOES exist.

That's it.
The end.
All there is to it.
All she wrote.
Ain't no more.
Full stop.
Waiter, check please.

Pogo is right-----sanders is going to GIVE EVERYONE freebies------
by raising taxes SKY HIGH. Pogo sees the BEAUTY OF THE PLAN

 

[9thIDdoc]

The system can't be fixed while insurance companies are an integral part of the system.

Yes.
Ask this question of yourself.
If I am the none paying the freight, why would I allow myself to be excluded from negotiating the prices I pay?

Exactly the problem. Hospitals and other healthcare providers are charging many times their cost for the goods and services they provide in order to also cover the cost of what they provide to those who will not pay. They claim (very often correctly)they must do this in order to stay open/continue. As long as insurance co's and providers simply pass along these overcharges to the consumer-as they currently do-we have a system that routinely defrauds the consumer with the approval of the government.

 

[irosie91]

The system can't be fixed while insurance companies are an integral part of the system.

Yes.
Ask this question of yourself.
If I am the none paying the freight, why would I allow myself to be excluded from negotiating the prices I pay?

Exactly the problem. Hospitals and other healthcare providers are charging many times their cost for the goods and services they provide in order to also cover the cost of what they provide to those who will not pay. They claim (very often correctly)they must do this in order to stay open/continue. As long as insurance co's and providers simply pass along these overcharges to the consumer-as they currently do-we have a system that routinely defrauds the consumer with the approval of the government.

I is an altruist ------I do not support throwing sick persons in hospital who cannot pay INTO THE GUTTER. It AIN'T ethical The APPROVAL comes
from the medical community and ethical guys like me

 

[Arianrhod]

Funny, it seems to be all spelled out on his website.

Oh sorry ----- that thing is called a "link".

None of which can be accomplished without massive tax increases and new taxes.

Red herring. The poster claimed that the candidate had, and I quote, "NO IDEA how his programs would be financed" ---- so I linked her to the webpage that spells out exactly how those programs would be financed.

Therefore she's wrong, and I win. Again.

No...YOU LOSE...Because those funding mechanisms leave out the source of the money...and that source can only be one place US.....
Government cannot spend trillions more by just moving the chess pieces around the board. Some one has GOT to pay....

Nope. You're the initial deflector.

I'm gonna essplain this in terms so simple even you can figure it out.

Irosie declared "X does not exist".

So then I linked X. Which proves it DOES exist.

That's it.
The end.
All there is to it.
All she wrote.
Ain't no more.
Full stop.
Waiter, check please.

Pogo is right-----sanders is going to GIVE EVERYONE freebies------
by raising taxes SKY HIGH. Pogo sees the BEAUTY OF THE PLAN

No.

 

[Pogo]

Funny, it seems to be all spelled out on his website.

Oh sorry ----- that thing is called a "link".

None of which can be accomplished without massive tax increases and new taxes.

Red herring. The poster claimed that the candidate had, and I quote, "NO IDEA how his programs would be financed" ---- so I linked her to the webpage that spells out exactly how those programs would be financed.

Therefore she's wrong, and I win. Again.

No...YOU LOSE...Because those funding mechanisms leave out the source of the money...and that source can only be one place US.....
Government cannot spend trillions more by just moving the chess pieces around the board. Some one has GOT to pay....

Nope. You're the initial deflector.

I'm gonna essplain this in terms so simple even you can figure it out.

Irosie declared "X does not exist".

So then I linked X. Which proves it DOES exist.

That's it.
The end.
All there is to it.
All she wrote.
Ain't no more.
Full stop.
Waiter, check please.

Pogo is right-----sanders is going to GIVE EVERYONE freebies------
by raising taxes SKY HIGH. Pogo sees the BEAUTY OF THE PLAN

I didn't even read the plan. I just knew that there was one.

 

[irosie91]

None of which can be accomplished without massive tax increases and new taxes.

Red herring. The poster claimed that the candidate had, and I quote, "NO IDEA how his programs would be financed" ---- so I linked her to the webpage that spells out exactly how those programs would be financed.

Therefore she's wrong, and I win. Again.

No...YOU LOSE...Because those funding mechanisms leave out the source of the money...and that source can only be one place US.....
Government cannot spend trillions more by just moving the chess pieces around the board. Some one has GOT to pay....

Nope. You're the initial deflector.

I'm gonna essplain this in terms so simple even you can figure it out.

Irosie declared "X does not exist".

So then I linked X. Which proves it DOES exist.

That's it.
The end.
All there is to it.
All she wrote.
Ain't no more.
Full stop.
Waiter, check please.

Pogo is right-----sanders is going to GIVE EVERYONE freebies------
by raising taxes SKY HIGH. Pogo sees the BEAUTY OF THE PLAN

I didn't even read the plan. I just knew that there was one.

oh----ok that's why you exclaimed "IT'S A PLAN"

 

[Pogo]

Red herring. The poster claimed that the candidate had, and I quote, "NO IDEA how his programs would be financed" ---- so I linked her to the webpage that spells out exactly how those programs would be financed.

Therefore she's wrong, and I win. Again.

No...YOU LOSE...Because those funding mechanisms leave out the source of the money...and that source can only be one place US.....
Government cannot spend trillions more by just moving the chess pieces around the board. Some one has GOT to pay....

Nope. You're the initial deflector.

I'm gonna essplain this in terms so simple even you can figure it out.

Irosie declared "X does not exist".

So then I linked X. Which proves it DOES exist.

That's it.
The end.
All there is to it.
All she wrote.
Ain't no more.
Full stop.
Waiter, check please.

Pogo is right-----sanders is going to GIVE EVERYONE freebies------
by raising taxes SKY HIGH. Pogo sees the BEAUTY OF THE PLAN

I didn't even read the plan. I just knew that there was one.

oh----ok that's why you exclaimed "IT'S A PLAN"

I didn't "exclaim" anything. I simply responded to your "NO IDEA" -- because I already knew that page existed, and therefore there was AN IDEA. Took me three seconds to look it up and link it.

And yet it's taking three days to explain a simple case of existence to entities that claim to be grown adults.