Zone1 Who created all things?

[ding]

Why would I assume they spontaneously appeared from nothing? That violates every scientific stance I've ever known.

Why would you assume the universe spontaneously appeared from nothing? Because it did. And that was known 6,000 years before science discovered it.

Did it violate every scientific stance ever known? No. It is possible for matter to have a beginning. In a closed universe the gravitational energy which is always negative exactly compensates the positive energy of matter. So the energy of a closed universe is always zero. So nothing prevents this universe from being spontaneously created. Because the net energy is always zero. The positive energy of matter is balanced by the negative energy of the gravity of that matter which is the space time curvature of that matter. There is no conservation law that prevents the formation of such a universe. In quantum mechanics if something is not forbidden by conservation laws, then it necessarily happens with some non-zero probability. So a closed universe can spontaneously appear - through the laws of quantum mechanics - out of nothing. And in fact there is an elegant mathematical description which describes this process and shows that a tiny closed universe having very high energy can spontaneously pop into existence and immediately start to expand and cool. In this description, the same laws that describe the evolution of the universe also describe the appearance of the universe which means that the laws were in place before the universe itself.

 

[hadit]

Well, that's the conversation you jumped into.

Yes, it is, and my opinion is that nothing comes from nothing. That's science, and to claim that science proves everything came from nothing is to violate science. I believe a being created not only everything, but the laws that govern its movements, its interactions, and its very existence.

 

[frigidweirdo]

Yes, it is, and my opinion is that nothing comes from nothing. That's science, and to claim that science proves everything came from nothing is to violate science. I believe a being created not only everything, but the laws that govern its movements, its interactions, and its very existence.

So, then, everything has always existed. Doesn't need to have been created. Just, it's there.

If God was just there. Then so to can energy.

 

[ding]

What I don't get is why humans claim the bible is inspired by some god in the first place. Where is the proof?

It started about the time of Exodus when the belief was established that they were chosen to follow God's laws.

 

[ding]

Yes, it is, and my opinion is that nothing comes from nothing. That's science, and to claim that science proves everything came from nothing is to violate science. I believe a being created not only everything, but the laws that govern its movements, its interactions, and its very existence.

It comes from God. God is no thing.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Nonsense, I'm saying that you can see Dad's car moves and takes you places, but you have no understanding of how Dad got it or who built it and from what. That has nothing to do with whether it can fly. And, quite frankly, if the child watched "Chitty Chitty Bang Bang", he/she probably believes it can.

We can observe how the stars, planets and galaxies move. We can theorize the existence of dark matter because the observable universe doesn't contain enough matter for things to move as they do. We can observe the life cycle of stars, how they form, burn and eventually die. IOW, we can see the universe as it is now and can theorize the nature of its beginning.

What we cannot understand is how and why it all started. Your belief that it all just did completely on its own without any thought, design, or energy requires as much, if not more faith than mine does. Science is saying that the laws of physics that we painstakingly quantified and understand just magically appeared in an instant because they didn't exist an instant before. because they are violated by the universe spontaneously going from nothing to everything. Your belief REQUIRES that you leave behind your rationality as you approach the beginning of everything, because you can't see past that moment. You can only imagine what MIGHT have happened.

Grasping that a far larger intelligence and power created the universe is actually more believable than insisting it all just happened for no good reason because you don't want to accept the existence of that being.

Science is not in the business of religion. It involves reviewing evidence to determine the most probable cause of events. Science has not yet discovered the reasons for all things and may not ever do so when it comes to the beginning. It is OK to say "I don't know, because we don't.

Some atheists argue that science has demonstrated that something can emerge from nothing, citing scientists who claim that quantum fields exist in a vacuum. As a nonbeliever in any religion, that scientific finding that energy is created in a "vacuum" by saying that quantum fields exist does not answer where a quantum field came from. Thus, the scientific argument fails to answer the question of a beginning.

Religion CLAIMS to know the answer by inserting their conceived god there and their only "proof" are claims made by ancient people long since dead who copied the Greek gods who had various powers by combining all those powers into one god called Yahweh. Then they invented fantasies called a soul and a heaven and a hell to keep humans in check while at the same time gaining immense wealth and acclaim and respect. Humans made religion sacrosanct and untouchable by ruthlessly enforcing blasphemy laws, killing and torturing anyone who cast doubt on what any rational-thinking human would call preposterous and illogical beliefs if it wasn't claimed to be from God himself.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Why do you feel a need to "get it"?

Why not? Why should a human accept crazy cult beliefs?

 

[ding]

So, then, everything has always existed.

No. The universe literally popped into existence ~14 billion years ago and it was not created from existing matter/energy. That is what the Big Bang theory says.

The Early Universe

 

[ding]

Science is not in the business of religion.

Science is the study of nature, to discover the order within nature, so as to be able to make predictions of nature.

 

[ding]

Why not? Why should a human accept crazy cult beliefs?

You mean like the universe being created from nothing? Yes, they should accept that because that's what the EVIDENCE shows.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Down this road lies what I call, "Do a trick" theology. God could come down, present Himself to mankind and do miracle after miracle to prove His existence. Within a decade of Him leaving there would be those insisting that the miracles never happened, that they were illusions, that they were all explainable by natural processes, that they "just happened". Within a generation, a significant portion of the population would refuse to believe it, and God would have to come down and do it all over again because people are stubborn when they don't want to accept something.

Case in point, the Holocaust. How long was it after WWII ended and the camps were liberated before people were claiming it didn't happen, and how many people worldwide today think it either didn't happen or it wasn't horrific? This in spite of it being one of the most extensively documented atrocities the world has seen.

You are using strawmen to shoehorn in your contrived and conceived "god" by saying some people don't believe in the Holocaust. We can go back and check the records to see that it happened. No one gains any benefit by claiming it did not happen and only a few whack jobs say it didn't.

Contrast that with your cult. You have writings by unknown people centuries ago that followed ignorant and superstitious beliefs of where thunder, volcanoes, floods, earthquakes, and plagues came from and invented gods to explain all that. As centuries went on, humans found that there was no god of thunder, war, or the sun and that the earth was not the center of the universe.

But humans need explanations and reasons for things like why their loved one died in a car crash, why bad things happen to good people, what is the purpose of life and it was and is easy to "insert Bible God here."

Did you personally witness any miracles as accounted by unknown writers of 2-3,000 years ago? Did anyone other than Paul himself verify his vision? Does the trinity make a whit of sense or is it more likely people who wanted power invented the concept to elevate a Jewish Rabii to godhood?

 

[Paradoxical#1]

It started about the time of Exodus when the belief was established that they were chosen to follow God's laws.

I didn't ask when or where it started. BTW, there is zero proof that Exodus happened just as there is zero proof there was any god to follow.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Science is the study of nature, to discover the order within nature, so as to be able to make predictions of nature.

Duh!

 

[Paradoxical#1]

You mean like the universe being created from nothing? Yes, they should accept that because that's what the EVIDENCE shows.

Did I say I believed that? I said it is an unknowable question and cultists insert their god there.

 

[pknopp]

Why not? Why should a human accept crazy cult beliefs?

Who said that you had to accept anything?

 

[ding]

I didn't ask when or where it started. BTW, there is zero proof that Exodus happened just as there is zero proof there was any god to follow.

Something happened. Was it embellished? I think so. I don't care that you didn't ask when or where. That's where the conversation on "why" would naturally start. And since they started doing that then and there, the "why" is because they were chosen to follow the laws of God. So naturally, it had to be the word of God.

 

[ding]

Duh!

And I've forgotten more science than you have ever known.

 

[ding]

Did I say I believed that? I said it is an unknowable question and cultists insert their god there.

Incorrect on every front. The universe popping into existence is knowable and monotheists did not insert God there. They moved away from polytheistic beliefs that did that. Monotheists believe in a creator God that set creation into motion but does not interfere or control nature or man. Those were the beliefs of polytheists which monotheists rejected.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Who said that you had to accept anything?

I say cultists need to prove their warped beliefs.

 

[Moonglow]

Jesus created all things. Under the direction of the Father

So now we no longer have a one-person deity religion.