Zone1 Who created all things?

[Meriweather]

Duly noted you agree that your verse contradicts.

Once more you deliberately misconstrue what I say. Why does what I really say frighten you so badly?

 

[onefour1]

onefour1:

I read your post in which you are using the same lame argument as BS Filter, claiming that "firstborn" refers to pre-eminence despite the fact scripture throughout the Christian Greek Scriptures (New Testament) repeatedly refers to Jesus Christ as "begotten." Someone who was begotten is someone who was sired, literally born or created and did not exist before he/she was begotten.


Alter2Ego

"begotten" does mean that a being is born of another but it does not imply that they never existed before they were begotten. That is your own personal definition. Check out my post entitled, "Did you exist before you were born into this life?". There is alot of scriptural evidence that we existed prior to being born in this life. There is even more evidence that Jesus existed before being born into this life. As one example, check out the following verses:

John 1:1-3, 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Verse 1 tells us that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Verse 2 tells us that the Word was in the beginning with God. Verse 3 tells us that through the Word, all things were created and that nothing that was made that was made without him. Verse 14 tells us that the Word was Christ.

Christ's and all our spirits existed before being born into this world. Yes, we were all born through the process of procreation into this life just as Jesus was, but our spirits existed before this birth and we existed in heaven as the sons and daughter of God the Father just as Jesus did. In the book of Job we read that when the earth was being created, all the sons of God shouted for joy. Who do you think these sons of God were?

Job 38:3-7
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

How could the sons of God shout for joy if they never existed until they were born into this life? Read all the verses at the beginning of the "Did you exist before being born into this life?" thread to see more evidence of the premortal existence of man.

 

[BS Filter]

"begotten" does mean that a being is born of another but it does not imply that they never existed before they were begotten. That is your own personal definition. Check out my post entitled, "Did you exist before you were born into this life?". There is alot of scriptural evidence that we existed prior to being born in this life. There is even more evidence that Jesus existed before being born into this life. As one example, check out the following verses:

John 1:1-3, 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Verse 1 tells us that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Verse 2 tells us that the Word was in the beginning with God. Verse 3 tells us that through the Word, all things were created and that nothing that was made that was made without him. Verse 14 tells us that the Word was Christ.

Christ's and all our spirits existed before being born into this world. Yes, we were all born through the process of procreation into this life just as Jesus was, but our spirits existed before this birth and we existed in heaven as the sons and daughter of God the Father just as Jesus did. In the book of Job we read that when the earth was being created, all the sons of God shouted for joy. Who do you think these sons of God were?

Job 38:3-7
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

How could the sons of God shout for joy if they never existed until they were born into this life? Read all the verses at the beginning of the "Did you exist before being born into this life?" thread to see more evidence of the premortal existence of man.

That's mormon doctrine. Correct?

 

[Alter2Ego]

BS Filter:

According to you, God died and resurrected himself. Tell us more of your fairytale.

BTW: Be sure and provide scripture from God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, to prove your claim that Jesus is Jehovah.


Alter2Ego

John 2:19. You might want to knock off the sarcastic arrogance, unless you're intent on embarrasing yourself.

BS Filter:

Sarcastic arrogance? Hardly. You just can't cope with being corrected by scripture. So much so that you're grasping at straws with that cherry-picked verse at John 2:19 in which Jesus used the temple to symbolize his body, to indicate he would be dead for three days.

At John 2:19, Jesus was quoting a prophecy about his death and resurrection rather than saying he would resurrect himself. Below are quotations of John 2:19 from three different Bible translations. Notice the quotation signs that I enlarged in red, indicating that Jesus was quoting somebody's words.


Berean Literal Bible
Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."


New King James Version
Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."


Christian Standard Bible
Jesus answered, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it up in three days."


Not only that, you are also ignoring the following facts:

1. Death means one's life is gone; one no longer exists as a living person. Therefore, a dead person cannot resurrect himself. The Bible itself says Jesus died and had to be resurrected by his Father, Almighty God Jehovah.

"This Jesus, God has raised to life-- a fact to which all of us testify." (Acts 2:32 -- Weymouth New Testament)


2. Scripture says God cannot die.

"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." (Psalm 90:4 -- King James Version)


An everlasting person cannot die. Not even for a second. Jesus literally died and was dead for three days.



Alter2Ego

 

[Alter2Ego]

"begotten" does mean that a being is born of another but it does not imply that they never existed before they were begotten. That is your own personal definition. Check out my post entitled, "Did you exist before you were born into this life?". There is alot of scriptural evidence that we existed prior to being born in this life. There is even more evidence that Jesus existed before being born into this life. As one example, check out the following verses:

John 1:1-3, 14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Verse 1 tells us that in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. Verse 2 tells us that the Word was in the beginning with God. Verse 3 tells us that through the Word, all things were created and that nothing that was made that was made without him. Verse 14 tells us that the Word was Christ.

Christ's and all our spirits existed before being born into this world. Yes, we were all born through the process of procreation into this life just as Jesus was, but our spirits existed before this birth and we existed in heaven as the sons and daughter of God the Father just as Jesus did. In the book of Job we read that when the earth was being created, all the sons of God shouted for joy. Who do you think these sons of God were?

Job 38:3-7
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

How could the sons of God shout for joy if they never existed until they were born into this life? Read all the verses at the beginning of the "Did you exist before being born into this life?" thread to see more evidence of the premortal existence of man.

onefour1:

At Post 384, I gave the definition of "begotten" from the dictionary.

Zone1 Post in thread 'Who created all things?'

Monday at 7:58 PM

The Hebrew word translated Possessed at Prov 8:22 means created-Jesus is the Firstborn of all creation. So yes he is created, That is Why-HE=Jehovah created it all.

Firstborn doesn't mean created. You've been lied to. Exodus 4:22 God says Israel is His Firstborn son. Explain that.

BS Filter:

I've got news for you. The word "born," in and of itself, means someone that was created or sired. Throughout the Christian Greek Scriptures aka New Testament, Jesus is repeatedly referred to as "begotten" (which is the past participle of beget)...

• Alter2Ego

• 

It's not my problem that you can't cope with reality. I'm not going to waste my precious time reading your wall of text.



Alter2Ego

 

[BS Filter]

BS Filter:

Sarcastic arrogance? Hardly. You just can't cope with being corrected by scripture. So much so that you're grasping at straws with that cherry-picked verse at John 2:19 in which Jesus used the temple to symbolize his body, to indicate he would be dead for three days.

At John 2:19, Jesus was quoting a prophecy about his death and resurrection rather than saying he would resurrect himself. Below are quotations of John 2:19 from three different Bible translations. Notice the quotation signs that I enlarged in red, indicating that Jesus was quoting somebody's words.


Berean Literal Bible
Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."


New King James Version
Jesus answered and said to them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."


Christian Standard Bible
Jesus answered, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it up in three days."


Not only that, you are also ignoring the following facts:

1. Death means one's life is gone; one no longer exists as a living person. Therefore, a dead person cannot resurrect himself. The Bible itself says Jesus died and had to be resurrected by his Father, Almighty God Jehovah.

"This Jesus, God has raised to life-- a fact to which all of us testify." (Acts 2:32 -- Weymouth New Testament)


2. Scripture says God cannot die.

"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." (Psalm 90:4 -- King James Version)


An everlasting person cannot die. Not even for a second. Jesus literally died and was dead for three days.



Alter2Ego

The words of Jesus are very clear in the Scriptures that you yourself provided. DESTROY THIS BODY AND IN THREE DAYS I WILL RAISE IT UP.

Revelation 1 Jesus said "I was dead and now I am alive. Jesus also said in chapter 1 that He is The Almighty. Read it yourself.

Do you believe the Scripture of John 2:19? Is it true ir false?

 

[onefour1]

onefour1:

At Post 384, I gave the definition of "begotten" from the dictionary.

Yes, and your definition did not include the idea that you never existed prior to being begotten.

 

[BS Filter]

Yes, and your definition did not include the idea that you never existed prior to being begotten.

the mormon doctrine that humabs can become God Almighty is not Biblical.

 

[ding]

Mainstream science presents the current best explanations for things. No one, except possibly you, expects all current explanations to remain valid. They may do, but experience shows us new evidence begets new explanations.

That you wish to argue nature can be explained by 'gawd, he done it' merely reinforces your fear of the unknown.

I haven't gotten within a hundred miles of God when discussing the science. And if you want to argue we can't know anything because we don't know everything, then be my guest. But the reality is the mainstream science does say the universe began by popping into existence not being created from existing matter/energy and this does freak out atheists. Such that they will always argue we don't know as you seem to be doing now.

 

[ding]

Remember to check under your bed to make sure the dust bunnies don't have companions.

Militant atheism is universal in its behaviors and are quite predictable as well. So if you want to pretend that you couldn't become as bad as they were, you are vastly underestimating your capacity for hate. So maybe you should be checking under your bed to see if you have any of those dust bunnies hiding.

 

[ding]

Did you too find the Book nearly as boring as the Book?

I find them to be sometimes challenging to understand the author's descriptive portrayal of reality. Almost impossible if one is lazy and doesn't have their heart in the right place.

 

[ding]

In NZ, a politician promoting their religion is dead in the water. The various Christian loony parties can't pass the minimum 5% of the vote to be assigned party seats.

Render to Caesar...

But it's not surprising because D&I has almost always been misunderstood and misapplied.

 

[hadit]

habit:

That's false. Jesus didn't create anything. Only Jehovah, the Father of Jesus, has the ability to create. Scripture says Jesus himself is a created being.

"{7} just as you learned it from Epaphras our beloved fellow servant. He is a faithful minister of Christ on your behalf {15} He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:7 and 15 -- English Standard Version)


"{7} As ye also learned of Epaphras our dear fellowservant, who is for you a faithful minister of Christ; {15} Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:"
(Colossians 1:7 and 15 -- King James Bible)


"{7} That is what you have learned from our beloved fellow slave Epʹa·phras, who is a faithful minister of the Christ on our behalf. {15} He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;" (Colossians 1:7 and 15 -- New World Translation by Jehovah's Witnesses)

https://www.jw.org/en/search/?q=colossians+1&link=%2Fresults%2FE%2Fbible%3Fsort%3Drel%26q%3Dcolossians%25201

I quoted verse 7 so that you could see the subject of verse 15 is none other than Jesus Christ. A created being is incapable of creating.




Alter2Ego

"Firstborn" is a title as well as a designation. David was called "firstborn", though he was the youngest of his father's sons. Ephraim is referred to as "firstborn", though he was not the first of his father's sons. IOW, God can and does appoint people to "firstborn" status who are not physically born first.

Additionally, Jesus “is before all things, and in him all things hold together”. No, you simply can't make the case from the Bible that Jesus is a created being. The only thing you can do is pervert the Bible by having "translators" (who can't read the original languages) go through it and simply rewrite the parts they don't like without regard to the original texts.

 

[Paradoxical#1]

Once more you deliberately misconstrue what I say. Why does what I really say frighten you so badly?

Would you PUHLEEZE stop with this juvenile taunt using the word frightened, as if I would still be scared of your fictional god being real and punishing me after I die?? You know that I converted long ago and am no longer under the spell of the cult of propaganda and indoctrination using fear as their primary selling point and then guilt, shame, remorse, and all the other hot-button emotions used by used car salesmen.

 

[Meriweather]

Would you PUHLEEZE stop with this juvenile taunt using the word frightened, as if I would still be scared of your fictional god being real and punishing me after I die?? You know that I converted long ago and am no longer under the spell of the cult of propaganda and indoctrination using fear as their primary selling point and then guilt, shame, remorse, and all the other hot-button emotions used by used car salesmen.

The solution is easy. You stop accusing people of faith with fear and I'll stop reaching the conclusion you are projecting the mirror image of your own fear onto others. The fact that I bounce your use of the word fear back onto you and it annoys you makes my point.

Speaking of taunting, let's take a look at the other words you are throwing around: Fictional. Cult. Propaganda. Indoctrination. Using fear as the primary selling point....etc. You claim to be a former Catholic, but somehow you have missed love, mercy, forgiveness, redemption, kingdom living being open to all. Do you understand why I question your claim that you were once Catholic?

 

[Paradoxical#1]

The solution is easy. You stop accusing people of faith with fear and I'll stop reaching the conclusion you are projecting the mirror image of your own fear onto others. The fact that I bounce your use of the word fear back onto you and it annoys you makes my point.

Speaking of taunting, let's take a look at the other words you are throwing around: Fictional. Cult. Propaganda. Indoctrination. Using fear as the primary selling point....etc. You claim to be a former Catholic, but somehow you have missed love, mercy, forgiveness, redemption, kingdom living being open to all. Do you understand why I question your claim that you were once Catholic?

I come from an extremely large family of believers and was taught by the nuns. Never tell me I don't know about the Catholic cult because I studied it and practiced it and was once a devout believer. I listen to numerous podcasts and YouTube videos of former pastors, priests, and ministers who deconverted after decades of being believers. Those people are the real experts in the bible and realized after many decades how they were duped into believing because people like you would try to talk their way out of contradictions by using some other verse to claim that the verse in question doesn't apply or doesn't mean what it says.

Look, if some people live with their heads in the sand and believe that the bible is all about love and we go to some heaven that is barely described forever and ever and meet our departed loved ones at the same age they were when they departed that's all well and good for them. If they can be happy eternally worshipping at the feet of a creator, more power to them.

I didn't miss the "love" part as you suggested. I just realized that when someone loves you, they do so unconditionally and don't demand a belief that they exist even though we can't see them. Any rational-thinking person would know that is impossible and contrived to make people believe what they are being told in spite of no evidence other than claims and stories written by unknown fearful humans centuries ago.

I used to ask the nuns pointed questions in class that they couldn't answer such as the bible being vague about heaven and hell when it had the time to post 613 laws and made rules about when you beat a slave and he doesn't die and killing men, women, and animals in the name of "God", and a flood that kills babies and animals as being somehow "loving".

I am not projecting my fear. I am exposing the fear-laden bible for what it is.

 

[ding]

I come from an extremely large family of believers and was taught by the nuns. Never tell me I don't know about the Catholic cult because I studied it and practiced it and was once a devout believer. I listen to numerous podcasts and YouTube videos of former pastors, priests, and ministers who deconverted after decades of being believers. Those people are the real experts in the bible and realized after many decades how they were duped into believing because people like you would try to talk their way out of contradictions by using some other verse to claim that the verse in question doesn't apply or doesn't mean what it says.

Look, if some people live with their heads in the sand and believe that the bible is all about love and we go to some heaven that is barely described forever and ever and meet our departed loved ones at the same age they were when they departed that's all well and good for them. If they can be happy eternally worshipping at the feet of a creator, more power to them.

I didn't miss the "love" part as you suggested. I just realized that when someone loves you, they do so unconditionally and don't demand a belief that they exist even though we can't see them. Any rational-thinking person would know that is impossible and contrived to make people believe what they are being told in spite of no evidence other than claims and stories written by unknown fearful humans centuries ago.

I used to ask the nuns pointed questions in class that they couldn't answer such as the bible being vague about heaven and hell when it had the time to post 613 laws and made rules about when you beat a slave and he doesn't die and killing men, women, and animals in the name of "God", and a flood that kills babies and animals as being somehow "loving".

I am not projecting my fear. I am exposing the fear-laden bible for what it is.

My opinion is that you don't know jack shit about Catholicism or the bible despite your claims otherwise. You are an apostate and you act like every other apostate that thinks they know Catholicism and the bible better than those who actually believe and practice their faith. Your insolence is fueled by your ignorance. You have the arguments of a child and you have no evidence to back up your beliefs. It's all rhetoric.

 

[Meriweather]

I come from an extremely large family of believers and was taught by the nuns. Never tell me I don't know about the Catholic cult because I studied it and practiced it and was once a devout believer. I listen to numerous podcasts and YouTube videos of former pastors, priests, and ministers who deconverted after decades of being believers. Those people are the real experts in the bible and realized after many decades how they were duped into believing because people like you would try to talk their way out of contradictions by using some other verse to claim that the verse in question doesn't apply or doesn't mean what it says.

Look, if some people live with their heads in the sand and believe that the bible is all about love and we go to some heaven that is barely described forever and ever and meet our departed loved ones at the same age they were when they departed that's all well and good for them. If they can be happy eternally worshipping at the feet of a creator, more power to them.

I didn't miss the "love" part as you suggested. I just realized that when someone loves you, they do so unconditionally and don't demand a belief that they exist even though we can't see them. Any rational-thinking person would know that is impossible and contrived to make people believe what they are being told in spite of no evidence other than claims and stories written by unknown fearful humans centuries ago.

I used to ask the nuns pointed questions in class that they couldn't answer such as the bible being vague about heaven and hell when it had the time to post 613 laws and made rules about when you beat a slave and he doesn't die and killing men, women, and animals in the name of "God", and a flood that kills babies and animals as being somehow "loving".

I am not projecting my fear. I am exposing the fear-laden bible for what it is.

So much missed and overlooked. However, you sound proud of this, so there is nothing further to say.

 

[hadit]

onefour1

You might as well have saved yourself the effort at dancing around the fact that Jesus is a created being. Scripture makes it clear that he was literally the first thing that Jehovah God created, which is why he is referred to as the "firstborn of all creation" at Colossians 1:15.

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." (Colossians 1:15 -- World English Bible)


Alter2Ego

You're ignoring Scripture that declares "firstborn" to also be a title. David was proclaimed the "firstborn", though he was the youngest of his father's sons, just for one example, so I wouldn't rely too heavily on that simplistic definition.

 

[onefour1]

the mormon doctrine that humabs can become God Almighty is not Biblical.

Matthew 5:48
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

John 17:20-23
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Can we not become perfect even as our Father in Heaven is perfect as Jesus taught? Can we not become perfect in one even as Jesus is one with the Father? Or was Jesus a false teacher?