Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2

[Ben Thomson]

The Jews are not the pure innocent victims they like to portray themselves as that's for sure. On a side note the first major terrorist attack in the Mideast was carried out by the Jewish terrorist group Irgun, when they bombed the King David Hotel in '46. Don't get me started on the U.S.S Liberty...Historian on King David Hotel bombing: 'It was an act of terror'

 

[P F Tinmore]

Your clear implication is that Israel did not meet these recommendations on citizenship and full political and civil rights. So I ask you to clarify, Find or identify for me the Arabs and Jews who, were "citizens" of the new state that did not get their rights by law.

750,000 Palestinian refugees. Their normal residence was in territory that became Israel.

 

[toastman]

The Jews are not the pure innocent victims they like to portray themselves as that's for sure. On a side note the first major terrorist attack in the Mideast was carried out by the Jewish terrorist group Irgun, when they bombed the King David Hotel in '46. Don't get me started on the U.S.S Liberty...Historian on King David Hotel bombing: 'It was an act of terror'

So? What’s your point? Who said Jews portray themselves as innocent victims ?

 

[toastman]

Your clear implication is that Israel did not meet these recommendations on citizenship and full political and civil rights. So I ask you to clarify, Find or identify for me the Arabs and Jews who, were "citizens" of the new state that did not get their rights by law.

750,000 Palestinian refugees. Their normal residence was in territory that became Israel.

Right of return is never going to happen. Refugees or not, they ain’t coming to Israel so you can stop whining about them ..

 

[Hollie]

Your clear implication is that Israel did not meet these recommendations on citizenship and full political and civil rights. So I ask you to clarify, Find or identify for me the Arabs and Jews who, were "citizens" of the new state that did not get their rights by law.

750,000 Palestinian refugees. Their normal residence was in territory that became Israel.

False premise. Your phony number of so-called Pal refugees is a farce. The original number of Arab occupiers who were uprooted as a result of the Arab war is, according to many sources, half of your number. You have made no case that any of those who fled upon the onset of the Arab initiated war were occupying land now part of Israel are still alive.

You heed to do a better job of assembling phony numbers.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ Ben Thomson, et al,

BLUF in Thumbnail: No country, connected with the influences of the post-WWII Middle East is without some fault. And the Jewish leadership, from the inception of the Arab Palestinian Black Hand (1930 • first major terrorist group in the region) to the founding of The Irgun (AKA: IZL or Itzel • 1931) (probably the second major terrorist group in the region) was not perfect. The Irgun was a splinter group formed by cell commanders off the newly formed Haganah (embryonic Paramilitaries • 1920). The Haganah was formed in response to the Fedayeen (suicide groups) behind the 1920 Riots calling for Arab independence, which were backed by prominent Arab Leaders of the day (for example → Haj Amin al-Husseini and Izz al-Din al-Qassam).

The Jews are not the pure innocent victims they like to portray themselves as that's for sure. On a side note the first major terrorist attack in the Mideast was carried out by the Jewish terrorist group Irgun, when they bombed the King David Hotel in '46. Don't get me started on the U.S.S Liberty...Historian on King David Hotel bombing: 'It was an act of terror'

(COMMENT)

It is true, that the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) Navy intentionally attacked the USS Liberty (ATGR-5), a very lightly armed Naval Electronics Surveillance (SIGINT) Ship, inflicting heavy damage and severe casualties (137-WIA and 37-KIA). And no matter what set of theories you subscribe to, this incident will always be a black mark on Israeli History. While many people have tried to explain it, that stain will take a century or more of cleaning before it's forgotten.

Shortly after Israeli Independence, the Israeli government "ordered" that the Irgun to be disbanded. Even within the Israeli Cabinet, Jewish Agency and the Haganah, there was no support for the type and kind of radical operations and mission that the Irgun was known to initiate.

₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪ BREAK ₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪₪​

American and Israeli politics are like a dynamic IP address. While it is always 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, the political policy connections you make can change from one day to the next. What most people have a tendency to overlook, is that what is seen coming out of the White House or Capitol Building is driven by the impact of the great utilitarian needs of the various party influences and leaders. This is not so different from the impact of the responses coming from the Knesset and Beit Aghion. And these processes have a huge impact on the perception of the various critical issue of these times. Similarly, the Quartet on the Middle East (the UN US, EU, and Russia) are just as prone to these same forces; and just as likely to make decisions of the day that on a follow-up examination next year, will be found at fault. But at the end of the day, politically peaceful outcomes can only emerge from the agreements between the parties in conflict.

No one is without some blame. All we can do is try to NOT make it any worse.

Just My Thought,

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Sixties Fan]

 

[Sixties Fan]

The Hamas authorities in the Gaza Strip began a campaign to expropriate state-owned lands near the Rafah border crossing, as part of a project to expand the crossing, leaving many citizens homeless and jobless.

Hamas forcibly expels residents from their homes in Rafah

The Hamas authorities in the Gaza Strip began a campaign to expropriate state-owned lands near the Rafah border crossing, as part of a project to expand the crossing, leaving many citizens homeless and jobless.

www.al-monitor.com

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: No matter what the figure maybe, this is an extremely unreasonable issue to even give consideration. And what is more powerful to the outcome is that the Arab Palestinians won't even consider possible alternatives to this issue.

Your clear implication is that Israel did not meet these recommendations on citizenship and full political and civil rights. So I ask you to clarify, Find or identify for me the Arabs and Jews who, were "citizens" of the new state that did not get their rights by law.

750,000 Palestinian refugees. Their normal residence was in territory that became Israel.

(COMMENT)

There were many, many reasons for these streams of refugees, displacement, and movement. Again, in 1948, the Binding Laws, Covenants, and Treaties that address these issues were nonexistent. The "Right of Return" (as the Arab Palestinians refer to it) did not exist then and to a large extent is not now. While Article 12 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR) has an impact, it was subject to exceptions. Clearing the table of all other hidden agendas, political motivations, and requirements to remove populations from areas of hostilities and combat, there are still important exceptions:

◈ Article 24 • Non-retroactivity ratione personae • Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court​

1. No person shall be criminally responsible under this Statute for conduct prior to the entry into force of the Statute. The CCPR entered into force in 1976.​

2. In the event of a change in the law applicable to a given case prior to a final judgement, the law more favourable to the person being investigated, prosecuted or convicted shall apply.​

​

❖ It does not matter as to whether you are discussing the 18 Act of Aggression (1948) by the Arab League - or - the Six-Day War (1967), you cannot apply criminal sanctions retroactively on Israel.​

​

◈ Article 12 • International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR)​

Rights shall not be subject to any restrictions except those which are provided by law, are necessary to protect national security, public order (ordre public), public health or morals or the rights and freedoms of others, and are consistent with the other rights recognized in the present Covenant.​

​

❖ Israel has the right to sift-out any border-crosser know to have been a member of any Jihadist, Fedayeen Activist, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters that engaged in "criminal acts" directed against Israel, intended or calculated to create "terror" in the minds of the citizenry and general public. This would weed-out nearly every Gazan, and near 85% of the Arab Palestinians in the West Bank.​

​

◈ Article 20 • International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR)​

1. Any propaganda for war shall be prohibited by law.​

2. Any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law.​

​

❖ This would apply to nearly thousands and thousands of those Hostile Arab Palestinians that advocated escalations in confrontations.​

​

◈ Article Ic3 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees • Resolution 2198 ( XXI )​

Shall cease to apply to any person who has acquired a new nationality, and enjoys the protection of the country of his new nationality;​

​

❖ How many Arabs in Palestine or the Gaza Strip claim to be "Palestinian Citizens."​

​

Even if you attempt to apply contemporary law and obligations to the situation, Israel has some pretty persuasive arguments in defense of its actions. Now, is Israel always in the right? (RHETORIC) NO! Clearly, some of the actions had a political hidden motivator. And then there is the twin issues of "Defensible Borders" and the undependable posture of the Arab Palestinians to keep the peace.

No Dancing around your questions and implications. This is not the first time we've discussed this...

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

RE: Who Are The Palestinians? Part 2
⁜→ P F Tinmore, et al,

BLUF: No matter what the figure maybe, this is an extremely unreasonable issue to even give consideration. And what is more powerful to the outcome is that the Arab Palestinians won't even consider possible alternatives to this issue.

Your clear implication is that Israel did not meet these recommendations on citizenship and full political and civil rights. So I ask you to clarify, Find or identify for me the Arabs and Jews who, were "citizens" of the new state that did not get their rights by law.

750,000 Palestinian refugees. Their normal residence was in territory that became Israel.

(COMMENT)

There were many, many reasons for these streams of refugees, displacement, and movement. Again, in 1948, the Binding Laws, Covenants, and Treaties that address these issues were nonexistent. The "Right of Return" (as the Arab Palestinians refer to it) did not exist then and to a large extent is not now. While Article 12 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR) has an impact, it was subject to exceptions. Clearing the table of all other hidden agendas, political motivations, and requirements to remove populations from areas of hostilities and combat, there are still important exceptions:

◈ Article 24 • Non-retroactivity ratione personae • Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court​

1. No person shall be criminally responsible under this Statute for conduct prior to the entry into force of the Statute. The CCPR entered into force in 1976.​

2. In the event of a change in the law applicable to a given case prior to a final judgement, the law more favourable to the person being investigated, prosecuted or convicted shall apply.​

​

❖ It does not matter as to whether you are discussing the 18 Act of Aggression (1948) by the Arab League - or - the Six-Day War (1967), you cannot apply criminal sanctions retroactively on Israel.​

​

◈ Article 12 • International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR)​

Rights shall not be subject to any restrictions except those which are provided by law, are necessary to protect national security, public order (ordre public), public health or morals or the rights and freedoms of others, and are consistent with the other rights recognized in the present Covenant.​

​

❖ Israel has the right to sift-out any border-crosser know to have been a member of any Jihadist, Fedayeen Activist, Hostile Insurgents, Radicalized Islamic Followers, and Asymmetric Fighters that engaged in "criminal acts" directed against Israel, intended or calculated to create "terror" in the minds of the citizenry and general public. This would weed-out nearly every Gazan, and near 85% of the Arab Palestinians in the West Bank.​

​

◈ Article 20 • International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (CCPR)​

1. Any propaganda for war shall be prohibited by law.​

2. Any advocacy of national, racial or religious hatred that constitutes incitement to discrimination, hostility or violence shall be prohibited by law.​

​

❖ This would apply to nearly thousands and thousands of those Hostile Arab Palestinians that advocated escalations in confrontations.​

​

◈ Article Ic3 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees • Resolution 2198 ( XXI )​

Shall cease to apply to any person who has acquired a new nationality, and enjoys the protection of the country of his new nationality;​

​

❖ How many Arabs in Palestine or the Gaza Strip claim to be "Palestinian Citizens."​

​

Even if you attempt to apply contemporary law and obligations to the situation, Israel has some pretty persuasive arguments in defense of its actions. Now, is Israel always in the right? (RHETORIC) NO! Clearly, some of the actions had a political hidden motivator. And then there is the twin issues of "Defensible Borders" and the undependable posture of the Arab Palestinians to keep the peace.

No Dancing around your questions and implications. This is not the first time we've discussed this...

Most Respectfully,
R

You are doing your best to wriggle away from my original post.
-----------------
Chapter 3

Citizenship, international conventions and financial obligations


1. Citizenship. Palestinian citizens residing in Palestine outside the City of Jerusalem, as well as Arabs and Jews who, not holding Palestinian citizenship, reside in Palestine outside the City of Jerusalem shall, upon the recognition of independence, become citizens of the State in which they are resident and enjoy full civil and political rights.

This means that all Palestinians who normally live in the territory that becomes the Jewish state shall become citizens of that state with full civil and political rights.
-------------------
Why should the Palestinians give up their legal rights just to make Israel happy? Israel has made its bed now it must sleep in it.

You can say refugee, but I was really talking about the rule of nationality and state succession. Resolution 194 was based on current international law.

 

[P F Tinmore]

❖ How many Arabs in Palestine or the Gaza Strip claim to be "Palestinian Citizens."

Palestine is Palestine. Palestinians are Palestinians. The status of those terms depends on who you ask.

 

[Mindful]

The use of the name Palestine, was always in reference to the Jews, and Arabs were Arabs, it’s a relatively modern theme that Arabs became Palestinians.

Before the creation of Israel, it was actually the Jews who were referred to as Palestinians, not the Arabs. As a matter of fact, Arabs did not accept being called “Palestinians” because they did not want to be associated with Jews or with the British Mandate for Palestine.

“The Arabs who lived in the region became “Palestinians” only after the war of 1967. Before that, Judea and Samaria, together with Jerusalem, were occupied by Jordan, and Gaza was occupied by Egypt — but not a single Arab thought of himself as a “Palestinian”. Moreover, to call an Arab a “Palestinian” would mean to insult him.
“We are not Jews, we are Arabs”, they used to say in answer.

“Until the late 60s the word “Palestinian” was commonly, unanimously and globally associated with Jews. The world knew: Palestine is just another name for Israel (or Judaea), like Kemet was just another name for Egypt. And they had very good reasons to say it.

“Palestine”, What’s in a name? by Allan Ellison – Australian Jewish Association

jewishassociation.org.au

 

[Mindful]

^ Until 1950, the name of the Jerusalem Post was THE PALESTINE POST, The journal of the Zionist Organisation of America was NEW PALESTINE
The Bank Leumi was the ANGLO-PALESTINE BANK
The Israel Electric Company´s original name was the PALESTINE ELECTRIC COMPANY
There was the PALESTINE FOUNDATION FUND and the PALESTINE SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA
All these were JEWISH ORGANISATIONS, organised and run by JEWS.
In America, the Anthem of the Zionist youngsters sang, “PALESTINE, MY PALESTINE”, “PALESTINE SCOUT SONG” and “PALESTINE SPRING SONG”.
Arabs knew that the term “Palestinian” is the synonym of a “Jew”, that is why they felt offended.

 

[Mindful]

The Jews are not the pure innocent victims they like to portray themselves as that's for sure.

For sure.

I’ve never seen myself as a victim.

 

[surada]

What land does the UN call Pal’istan? When did the UN get into the land calling business?

In all of the 1949 UN Armistice Agreements, the UN called all of Palestine Palestine. In the Jordanian and Egyptian Armistice Agreements the UN called the Negev Palestine. Israel claims borders on that territory.

What territory specifically are you talking about that Israel ‘claims’ is theirs . Post a map and hiloge

the territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies

the establishment in Palestine

There can't be a Mandate For Palestine if there is no Palestine. Balfour recognizes the existence of Palestine. The Treaty of Lausanne called it a state. The League of Nations called it a state. Various court rulings called it a state. The US had a trade agreement with Palestine in 1932.

The liars in Israel says that Palestine is not a state with no evidence to back up that claim.

There can't be a Mandate For Palestine if there is no Palestine.

And since there is no longer a Mandate for Palestine, we agree there is no longer a Palestine.

There can't be a Mandate For Palestine if there is no Palestine.

A state does not need a Mandate to exist.

An imaginary state doesn't need borders.

Interesting thing to say since Israel has never declared its borders.

You sure about that ? Would you like me to embarrass you again by posting Israel’s INTERNATIONALLY RECOGNIZED BORDERS with Egypt and Jordan ? Yea or no Tinmore ?

Of course there are a couple concerns that everybody ducks.

Israel claims borders on land that the UN calls Palestine.

Those treaties were brokered by the US. You know...the country that illegally gave East Jerusalem and The Golan Hts. to Israel.

There is a question of validity here.

BTW , where did you read that the US gave Israel East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights? Israel captured them during wars that Arabs started .

Israel planned the war beginning in 1953 .. Read Moshe Dayan. They attacked Egypt when all Egypt's troops were fighting in Yemen.

Israel started which war ?

1967.. They planned it for over a decade/ Read Moshe Dayan.

I read facts, like the facts that the Arabs were massing troops around Israel, making threats of annihalation and had closed the straits of Tiran, which Israel had said would be taken as an act of war. So Israel pre emptively attacked the Arabs (which is pathetic considering how small Israel is compared to the countries of beat by destroying all their air forces )
Since the Arabs lost the war, of course they act like crying babies and play the victim card. Truly pathetic..

They weren't amassing troops around Israel.. The Straits of Tiran had been closed for 14 months.. Nasser had asked for a summit to resolved the problem. Egyptian troops were deployed in Yemen to fight the civil war there.

In the months prior to June 1967, tensions became dangerously heightened. Israel reiterated its post-1956 position that the closure of the Straits of Tiran to Israeli shipping would be a cause for war (a casus belli).
ejecting UNEF.

Six-Day War - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Any more questions ??

The Straits of Tiran had been closed for 14 months before Israel attacked Egypt ,, and in the weeks prior Nasser had called for a summit to resolve the situation.

 

[surada]

^ Until 1950, the name of the Jerusalem Post was THE PALESTINE POST, The journal of the Zionist Organisation of America was NEW PALESTINE
The Bank Leumi was the ANGLO-PALESTINE BANK
The Israel Electric Company´s original name was the PALESTINE ELECTRIC COMPANY
There was the PALESTINE FOUNDATION FUND and the PALESTINE SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA
All these were JEWISH ORGANISATIONS, organised and run by JEWS.
In America, the Anthem of the Zionist youngsters sang, “PALESTINE, MY PALESTINE”, “PALESTINE SCOUT SONG” and “PALESTINE SPRING SONG”.
Arabs knew that the term “Palestinian” is the synonym of a “Jew”, that is why they felt offended.

In 1950 there were nearly 50,000 Palestinians living in Saudi Arabia.. Many worked in my town and some went to our Church.

 

[surada]

◈ In the Preamble and body of the Treaty between Egypt and Israel, the "Palestine" is only mentioned specifically as the "mandated territory of Palestine,"

Interesting since the Mandate had been gone for three decades and they are still using that pejorative term.

Palestine: documents

Documents on Israel/Palestine A large collection of historical documents, from the Balfour Declaration of 1917 to the peace process of the early 2000s, can be found at the Avalon Project website (Yale University Law School). Documents relating to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict Another large...

al-bab.com

Documents on Israel/Palestine
A large collection of historical documents, from the Balfour Declaration of 1917 to the peace process of the early 2000s, can be found at the Avalon Project website (Yale University Law School).

 

[surada]

Indeed, the territory under the authority of the earlier mandate, was known coincidently as the ''Mandate for Palestine''.

The Armistice Agreements were in 1949. The Mandate left Palestine in 1948

Golly. This is weird. There was an Israel - Lebanon Armistice agreement signed in 1949.

Indeed, I found no indication of any representation by a "country of Pal'istan'' in that agreement. Weird, huh?

IL LB_490323_IsraeliLebaneseGeneralArmisticeAgreement.pdf (un.org)

Indeed.

The Avalon Project : The Palestinian National Charter

The Avalon Project : The Palestinian National Charter

avalon.law.yale.edu

• 1. Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab …
  2. Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.
  3. The Palestinian Arab people possess the legal right to their homeland and have the right to …
  4. The Palestinian identity is a genuine, essential, and inherent characteristic; it is transmitted from …
  See full list on avalon.law.yale.edu

 

[Hollie]

Indeed, the territory under the authority of the earlier mandate, was known coincidently as the ''Mandate for Palestine''.

The Armistice Agreements were in 1949. The Mandate left Palestine in 1948

Golly. This is weird. There was an Israel - Lebanon Armistice agreement signed in 1949.

Indeed, I found no indication of any representation by a "country of Pal'istan'' in that agreement. Weird, huh?

IL LB_490323_IsraeliLebaneseGeneralArmisticeAgreement.pdf (un.org)

Indeed.

The Avalon Project : The Palestinian National Charter

The Avalon Project : The Palestinian National Charter

avalon.law.yale.edu

• 1. Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab …
  2. Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit.
  3. The Palestinian Arab people possess the legal right to their homeland and have the right to …
  4. The Palestinian identity is a genuine, essential, and inherent characteristic; it is transmitted from …
• See full list on avalon.law.yale.edu

I not clear what relevance that charter has with regard to Israel establishing armistice agreements with neighboring Arab nations.

 

[surada]

The Jews are not the pure innocent victims they like to portray themselves as that's for sure. On a side note the first major terrorist attack in the Mideast was carried out by the Jewish terrorist group Irgun, when they bombed the King David Hotel in '46. Don't get me started on the U.S.S Liberty...Historian on King David Hotel bombing: 'It was an act of terror'

So was the firebombing of the Haifa refinery.

So was Operation Susannah .. The Lavon Affair eventually lead to the Suez Crisis.