rylah
Gold Member
- Jun 10, 2015
- 23,409
- 4,953
- 290
Holy bait n' switch, Ahmad that's quick,
it takes you less than a page to
flush your own arguments....
Already capitulating on your previous claim?
Last edited:
Who are the Israelis?
- Thread starter P F Tinmore
- Start date
Holy bait n' switch, Ahmad that's quick,
it takes you less than a page to
flush your own arguments....
Already capitulating on your previous claim?
rosends
Gold Member
- Oct 19, 2012
- 3,630
- 1,117
- 198
So your problem is with the English? Appeal to translators.
rosends
Gold Member
- Oct 19, 2012
- 3,630
- 1,117
- 198
Israel uses many languages. It's founding documents are in Hebrew. Your concern is about how the people are referred to in the founding documents. Or was there somethi g else.
- Jul 1, 2024
- 11,814
- 4,596
- 188
No, your problem is with English.
No need, they translated it perfectly.
- Jul 1, 2024
- 11,814
- 4,596
- 188
No, you're getting confused again, this was my first post here that you replied to a few hours ago:
rosends
Gold Member
- Oct 19, 2012
- 3,630
- 1,117
- 198
How do you know they translated it perfectly if you can't read the original and understand it. And why would you say they translated it perfectly when your entire point was that instead of speaking of Israelis we should be speaking of Israelites. If there is no distinct word for that, why assume that the translators were perfect?
rosends
Gold Member
- Oct 19, 2012
- 3,630
- 1,117
- 198
Right, so you want to draw a distinction between the two terms but can't explain how that distinction could be represented in the language that people speak in Israel.
- Jul 1, 2024
- 11,814
- 4,596
- 188
How does one tell if anything is translated "perfectly"?
The Zionists invented the word "Israeli", look:
Israeli is a nationality, citizens of the state of Israel are deemed "Israelis" nothing to do with Israelite or Jew.
Well people, scholars, experts have been translating Hebrew into Greek, Latin and English for a very long time, Jerome started doing this around 380AD. I've seen no evidence that uses of "Israelite" is controversial have you?
- Jul 1, 2024
- 11,814
- 4,596
- 188
Which "two" terms? we've been talking of "Israeli" and "Israelite" and "Jew" and "Judah" and so on, rather more than two terms. If you take issue with a statement I made please quote it verbatim.
rosends
Gold Member
- Oct 19, 2012
- 3,630
- 1,117
- 198
I don't know -- you made the claim. You tell me.
So the New York Times is "Zionist"
So then switching to "Israelite" wouldn't make any sense.
I haven't seen any indication of why or when it would be used. If one looks up the word "Israelite" one does not see it as referring to any modern peoples. It is taken from the Latin. Why you would think it relevant now is unclear.
rosends
Gold Member
- Oct 19, 2012
- 3,630
- 1,117
- 198
Here is what you wrote. I will bold the two terms you choose to differentiate between:
"You ask "Who are the Israelis?" and the better question would have been "Who are the Israelites?"
rylah
Gold Member
- Jun 10, 2015
- 23,409
- 4,953
- 290
Every work by Rambam is signed - 'Rabbi Moshe bar-Maimon the Israeli'.
Since the dawa propagandists love
to reference him as "Muslim",
without reading a single
word ever written...
Was that 1940?
موسى بن ميمون: تجديد اليهودية من رحم النسق الإسلامي
موسى بن ميمون أبرز علماء اليهود على مر التاريخ، وهو واحد من الفلاسفة الذين عاشوا وأبدعوا في إطار الحضارة العربية، ليكون بذلك جسرًا بين الأديان والحضارات.
www.ida2at.com
- Jul 1, 2024
- 11,814
- 4,596
- 188
Yes and that was in response to your insinuation that there was an issue with the English translation, which there isn't, but if you think there is then say so.
Is it? Zionists invented it and the NYT was the earliest printed use of it that that the OED had on file, quite different concepts.
It would make sense if the state were setup to be the national home of the Israelites (tribes descending from Israel) as opposed to the national home of Jews (two tribes, descendants of Judah + Benjamin), a subset of the larger group of descendants of Jacob.
As I had to explain to you recently all Jews are Israelites but not all Israelites are Jews.
That you do not know who is and is not an Israelite is beside the point. The fact is non-Jew Israelites have no place in modern Israel, only Jews are welcomed to the "national homeland". I know why too, it is not POSSIBLE to recognize Israelites today and so an inclusive state cannot be created because it cannot meaningfully recognize legitimate descendants of the ten tribes.
The state that exists today is a sham, it excludes the cousins that comprise ten other Israelite tribes. Yes the region is likely littered with people descended from those tribes, what we call "Palestinian" are likely blood relative, not Jews but perhaps from Dan or Gad or Ephraim etc.
The state knowingly excludes these cousins and in fact murders them every day by falsely labelling them non-Israelite - that's how disgusting the Zionists are, they have perverted Biblical history in their obsessive greed for land and material wealth to such a degree that killing their own brethren is deemed acceptable.
Attachments
rylah
Gold Member
- Jun 10, 2015
- 23,409
- 4,953
- 290
So you recognize the right of Israelites to reject Israelis?
Very smart, guess that's all it takes to come to terms with reality.
A Zionist Islam: An Interview with Sheikh Ahmad al-Adwan
“Historic Palestine”? A heretical invention. The right to al-Aqsa? Nothing less than a distortion of Allah’s word. An unconventional view of Zionism and Islam, courtesy of Jordanian Sheikh Ahmad al-Adwan.
mida.org.il
rylah
Gold Member
- Jun 10, 2015
- 23,409
- 4,953
- 290
rosends
Gold Member
- Oct 19, 2012
- 3,630
- 1,117
- 198
You made a distinction between words when you cannot articulate a source or a linguistic precedent for the distinction.
So where did Zionists invent it? If it wasn't printed, what evidence do you have?
You are back to this ridiculousness. I have shown evidence that the kingdom of Judah had members of all tribes. I have shown, linguistically, that the words you use are not clear. I have shown that you are ignorant of aspects of history, religion and language, among other topics. When your claims are debunked you move somewhere else and start with the same hate filled screeds. Repetition doesn t make your lies true.
- Jul 1, 2024
- 11,814
- 4,596
- 188
Which words? do you make no distinction between them?
Where? I'm sorry, I have no idea where they were when the choice was made. Your the linguist can't you find this evidence without my help?
Yes and you also reject Josephus out of hand, claimed he was poorly translated when he spoke of "Jew" and the usage of that term and then refused to elaborate on said mistranslation when you realized Josephus wrote in Greek and you know jack shit about Greek.
rosends
Gold Member
- Oct 19, 2012
- 3,630
- 1,117
- 198
The two terms. I don't know what they mean or how the distinction would be drawn.
You made a claim. Now you say you have no source. It isn't my job to prove your claim.
I gave source material and cited relevant authorities. You just don't like being so publicly and repeatedly corrected so you refuse to read.
rylah
Gold Member
- Jun 10, 2015
- 23,409
- 4,953
- 290
Rabbi Mosheh Calfon | North African Zionism
Early Zionist leader and 'Global Village' visionary
Rabbi Calfon Mosheh HaCohen (1874-1950) was the chief rabbi of Djerba, of the greatest scholars of Tunisia. Wrote numerous books, among them on the topics of Hebrew law, education, morality, sermons, and responsa.
An enthusiastic supporter of Zionism, all his life activity was to return to Eretz Yisrael.
Wrote a cosmopolitan vision, professing world peace and the establishment of an organization similar to the UN in Jerusalem. Passed away in Jerbah on the eve of moving to Israel, and in 2005 his bones were buried in Jerusalem.
The family of Rabbi HaCohen was from the attributed family Cohen Abri"sh, according to tradition descendants of 'Ezra HaSofer. His grand-grandfather Rabbi Shaul HaCohen was the head of court in the small quarter on the island of Djerba. His grandfather from the father's side is Rabbi Moseh HaCohen, the author of the book "Pnei Mosheh", after whom he was named. His father, Rabbi Shalom, authored the books "Nahar Shalom", "Hefetz Yakar", and "Hayyim Shalom", who was the head of court in Jirjis near Djerba.
Born in 1874 to Rabbi Shalom Vetraci, on the island of Djerba in south Tunisia. During childhood, his family knew years of prosperity and wealth and was known for generous support for scholars and the poor of Jerbah. During his teenage years, the family's situation worsened and he had to help the housing economy, for which among other things he used to proofread and copy books. Studied with his father and with Rabbi Yosef Barabi, later the Chief Rabbi of Djerba.
When his father was called to lead the community of Jirjis, Rabbi Calfon Mosheh HaCohen was asked to be the Shohet. At 17, learned Shhitah from Rabbi Binyamin Hadad, and served as a Shohet and examiner. Following the hard working conditions, during the summer days under the sun, became ill with fever and his vision was injured. Despite that, initially didn't want to stop his work to support the house, but after many entreaties returned to Djerba to continue his study.
In 1895 Rabbi HaCohen married Msi'adah, a cousin on his mother's side, and the couple had 3 sons and 4 daughters. One of the sons, Rabbi Shushan HaCohen, after making Aliyah, was appointed the Rabbi of the village of Eitan in Israel.
When he was 25 was asked to accept membership in the Beit Din (Hebrew court) of Jerbah, but rejected arguing he didn't want to receive any goods from the public. Despite his rejection, over the years various propositions kept reaching him, to serve in various Rabbinic positions, sometimes with promises of major respected rewards, but he always rejected.
In 1917, at 43 years, was eventually appointed as a member of the Beit Din in Jerbah, however then as well rejected the offer to head the court, rather only as of the 3rd judge, and only at certain hours of the day. In practice, the conditions didn't fulfill, and all-day he was busy with almost all of Jerbah's cour carried on his shoulders. Several times considered leaving the position due to his health conditions and the load of work.
His leadership stood out at critical times when the Nazi invaders into Djerbah demanded 50kg of gold from the Jewish community. This was on Sabbath and he drove with them all over the Jewish neighborhoods, obliging every Jew to bring all the gold in possession.
At 75 Rabbi Calfon fell fataly ill. After a short improvement, he passed on Sabbath, 7th of June 1950. On the day of his burial, the surrounding towns were almost emptied of Jews, and the main marketplace in Jerbah (owned mostly by Jews) was closed. Tens of thousands, among whom were Tunisian and French governors took part in the funeral.
Was buried in Djerbah, but in 2005, 55 years after his passing, his bones were brought from Tunisia to Israel, and buried on the mountain of Menuhot in Jerusalem, by Rabbi Shalom Msas.
In the funeral procession that lasted 3 days, took part tens of thousands from Israel, Tunisia, and France, among them Rabbi Mordechai Elyahu and Rabbi 'Ovadiah Yosef.
Named after him, are various synagogues, schools, as well as streets in the cities of Netivot, Ashkelon, and a street in Jerusalem.
Due to the establishment of the 'Alliance' schools in Tunisia, objected with his cousin Rabbi Mordechai Amyas HaCohen against many, including Rabbi Yisrael Zayton, the Chief Rabbi of Tunisia, preferring to keep traditional Torah education. After the school was established, most Djerba residents listened to Rabbi Calfon, and didn't send their children to study there.
Despite opposing modernization in the Alliance schools, Rabbi Calfon was an enthusiastic supporter of the Zionist movement, despite knowing its central figures were far from tradition, he wrote -
"In our days, many of our brothers of the house of Israel though didn't grow up on the knees of Judaism, Torah, and commandments, and their judgment is as of abducted children among the nations. However, in their heart awakened a nationalist emotion, for the love of existence of the Israeli nation, and its persistence to be a separate nation from the nations of the world." - from the pamphlet "Geulat Mosheh" in his book "Zchut Mosheh".
Referring to Binyamin Zeev Herzl he wrote -
"In our days, an exalted man has risen among us, a man of character with a clear mind and sharp ideas, Binyamin Zeev Herzl is his name...came up with a wonderful idea, fo everyone to gather under the shade of the Zionist community and be called Zionists...and knocked on the gates of kings and counts - to take from them a clear ruling, for Eretz Yisrael to be for us as before".
In 1919 was among the founders of the Zionist movement "Ateret Zion" in Djerba, which acted in coordination with KKL and Keren HaYesod, to strengthen the Hebrew language, and her members were constantly updated about news from the land of Israel, through Hebrew newspapers like "HaLevanon", "HaMagid", "HaTzfirah" and "HaHavatzelet".
In his lesson during Shabat of Torah portion "Naso", 12th of Sivan, several days after the San Remo conference and confirmation of the Balfour Declaration by the League of Nations said that this was "the beginning of the redemption". He wrote and edited the lesson at the end of Shabat, and published it as the "The Fifth Sermon For The Beginning Of Redemption" in his book "Matte Mosheh", writing the following - "from now on there is no doubt this is the beginning of the redemption, and every man of Israel should thank thousands of time to G-d for the redemption and salvation, for G-d has commanded his nation and brought us from bondage to redemption".
Rabbi Calfon explained that getting familiar with Eretz Yisrael will significantly increase Aliyah, and in a vision, he wrote in the 1920s, suggested organizing visits of young Jews from around the world to Eretz Yisrael with the funding of the Zionist movement. A similar idea was fulfilled with the establishment of the "Taglit" organization in the year 2000.
Rabbi Calfon supported 'Aliyah and made sure the community members support the immigrants. He also called for purchasing parcels of land in the country and worked for the revival of the Hebrew language. With the establishment of the state of Israel, ruled for the Israeli Independence Day to be celebrated on the island of Djerba for entire 3 days.
In the year 1897, when at 24, tried for the first time to make 'Aliyah with the help of a friend from Tripoli, with whom he befriended during visits to cure his eyes. However, after the journey had already been organized, his father heard of this and wanted to talk him out of it, arguing that according to his counting the Mashiah comes in the year 1916 and he would wait till then. In order not to sadden his father Rabbi Mosheh Calfon HaCohen listened to his father and gave up on the opportunity to make 'Aliyah, an opportunity he regretted all his days.
In preparation for the 'Aliyah bought a parcel of land in the Beit HaCerem neighborhood in Jerusalem, and in his late days, while his health was precarious, decided to try making 'Aliyah once again. In the year 1949, he acquired a permit for 'Aliyah, and his son Shushan went to Tunis to order the documents. However, due to illness, his 'Aliyah was postponed as his health condition deteriorated, which didn't improve till his passing.
In his early writings, before the state of Israel was established, he judged detailed practical governmental ideas, not only in reference to the Zionist idea but also clearly cosmopolitan ideas.
Following the Russia-Japan war breaking out in 1904, Rabbi Calfon came to the conclusion, that Torah of Israel is not complete with only the liberation of Israel, but seeks to build a whole corrected world for all humanity. He formulated a wide cosmopolitan vision, mechanisms and institutions which will establish world peace.
Due to his suspicion that his word won't be accepted, due to his status and the status of the relatively sideline country in which he lived, Rabbi Calfon archived the vision. An Arabic newspaper reached him 15 years later, revealing before him to his surprise similar political ideas to which he wrote about in 1905. Since then decided it was his duty to publish his ideas publically.
In the early 20s of the 20th century, Rabbi Calfon gave speeches in which he focused on the need to deal with international law, and formulated in detail a practical proposition for the establishment of a world government and the establishment of international law. He advanced mechanisms for solving international conflicts and formulated a political-state program including many goals.
Rabbi Calfon called for the establishment in Jerusalem of an international committee and an international court to examine the conduct of the countries according to the wellbeing of all humanity, to include representatives from all countries which together decide in international conflicts and prevent the use of force and violence. This idea, which was realized later with the establishment of the UN, included several additional ideas, among which, an International army to treat countries not willing to follow the counsel of the nations, a council to act for education to tolerance in a moral way, the idea for the establishment of a central world bank, which partial income will be leveraged to the poor of the countries, and an international currency for trade, which value is equal in all countries. The latter idea was realized as well, with the invention of the BitCoin, a couple of decades later.
Rabbi Calfon explained that the establishment of the major center of the international committee should be in Jerusalem, 'for there is great hope for all nations - we Jews, the Christians and Ishmaelites'.
With the strengthening of the movement for the return to Zion and the Belfour Declaration, the revival of the Hebrew language and the improvement of the conditions for Jews in developed countries Rabbi Calfon saw the beginning of the redemption age.
Rabbi Calfon saw technological development as a means for the world to become a global village, requiring the world countries to come to the help of countries in distress as part of mutual guarantee and world peace. The last term was also a religious obligation, and technological development symbolized in his view the basis for a higher spiritual level.
Among his books, more than 50 writings have been published dealing with all aspects of Judaism.
The three stages of realization of the Jewish character
"In the Berachot tractate there's a famous Mishnah that deals with the stages of Jewish identity for generations. The Jewish nation has a very complicated identity, and this is expressed in the founding ethos of our nation, through our three forfathers, who each mastered a different virtue of charachter - we're also the children of Avraham A"H, and the children of Itzhak A"H and also the chidlren of Ya'akov A"H which is already very complex. And if we followed further, we see that the third stage that makes us the children of Ya'akov A"H is as well comlex, for the reason that our forefather Ya'akov has three names, or three general tendencies to the soul of Israel, and universal to all humanity in general - Ya'akov, Yisrael, and Yeshurun.
Referring to dimensions of - the sanctity, the nation, and the human. You'll see people concerned, or sensitive to the religious in life dismissing all else, some make parallels of the Orthodoxy in diaspora. Others are focused on national defense, economy etc regardless of all else. And others will argue that the (individual) human is important above all, not Israel, Israel they'll say are not important, focusing on the cosmopolitan universalist direction. Sometimes realizing into specific political parties and movements, common to every soul, nation and humanity as a whole.
- Rabbi Oury Cherki - "HaGeulah - The next step"
MATOT - RABBI KOOK - Machon Meir English Department
“Our knowledge is limited, and the ways of Hashem are hidden, but there is absolutely nothing in the world which can absolve a person from making Aliyah to Eretz Yisrael. We must strengthen our faith and belief that only in the Aliyah to Israel and its settlement will the Torah be fulfilled, as...
machonmeir.net
P F Tinmore
Diamond Member
- Dec 6, 2009
- 83,413
- 4,684
- 1,815
- Thread starter
- #9,400
Similar threads
