Zone1 Which God?

[Ivan88]

The word 'god' or 'God' comes from the name of a Babylonian idol for good luck.

Being as how the Creator's name is Yahveh or something close to that, why call Him God? Perhaps the same logic that Christians love to call YahShua, the Christ to be Jesus, pronounced as Geesus.... a Greek word for unfaithful pig. There were no J's before about 500 years ago when Edomite central, the Vatican invented that letter.

 

[zaangalewa]

More precisely, the question is, what is the nature of God?

In this context god is "creator" not creation and/or nature. What you can see in the nature is how it is made. We are able to use mathematrics to find this out so we can say nature is made reasonable at all in its basic physical structures and we believe an important characteristics of god is "god is reason". This means for example also "there's only one truth" - what's also the "credo" of natural science.

 

[Stann]

A favorite challenge/throwdown by atheists is "Which God?", giggle, giggle.

I compiled the first answer I have ever seen. Please offer your suggestions
to add.

Which God?

​

“In God We Trust” – The Motto of the United States, found on every coin and every bill of currency


“God and My Right” – The Motto of Great Britain

Nature’s God, cited in America’s Declaration of Independence:


“When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. “


“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”


“We, therefore, the Representatives of the united States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by the Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, . . . .And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.”


The U.S. Constitution was signed as follows:

“Done in convention by the unanimous consent of the states present the seventeenth day of September in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven and of the independence of the United States of America the twelfth.”


Named in the Supreme Court Opening Prayer: “God bless this honorable court”.


“No human society has ever been able to maintain both order and freedom…apart from the moral precepts of the Christian religion applied and accepted by all the classes.” – John Jay, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, and Founding Father

“The Christian religion, in its purity is the basis and the source of all genuine freedom in government.” – Noah Webster

“The general principles on which the Fathers achieved independence were the only principles in which that beautiful assembly of young gentlemen could unite …the general principles of Christianity.” – John Adams

“If we abide by the principles taught in the Bible, our country will go on prospering and to prosper; but if we and our posterity neglect its instructions and authority, no man can tell how sudden a catastrophe may overwhelm us and bury all our glory in profound obscurity.” – Daniel Webster

“Our Constitution was made only for a religious people. It is wholly inappropriate for the government of any other.” - John Adams


The consensus of humanity, as Christians constitute the largest group in the world. Consensus is relentlessly cited as “proof” of Darwinian evolution, as “proof” of climate change, but strangely it is pooh-poohed by those consensus folks when it comes to Christianity.

The Holy Bible is the best-selling book of all time.

"I say unequivocally that the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus Christ is so overwhelming that it compels acceptance by proof which leaves absolutely no room for doubt!" - Sir Lionel Luckhoo, listed in the Guinness Book of Records as the most successful attorney in history


“If you were to take the sum total of all authoritative articles ever written by the most qualified of psychologists and psychiatrists on the subject of mental hygiene--if you were to combine them and refine them and cleave out the excess verbiage if you were to take the whole of the meat and none of the parsley, and if you were to have these unadulterated bits of pure scientific knowledge concisely expressed by the most capable of living poets, you would have an awkward and incomplete summation of the Sermon on the Mount. And it would suffer immeasurably through comparison. For nearly two thousand years the Christian world has been holding in its hands the complete answer to its restless and fruitless yearnings. Here . . . rests the blueprint for successful human life with optimum mental health and contentment.” - A Few Buttons Missing: The Case Book of a Psychiatrist, by James T Fisher


Oxford University 1096 :

“The Lord is my light”

Harvard 1650:

Whereas through the good hand of God…

Brown University 1764:

Motto: In Deo Speramus, Latin for “In God We Trust”

Princeton University

Motto: “Dei sub numine viget”, Latin for “Under God’s Power She Flourishes”

University of Pennsylvania

“…hoping through the favour of Almighty God,”


"For the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries." ~Dr. Robert Jastrow


“In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth.” – Genesis 1:1, validated by science only in the 20th Century

It really doesn't matter Humans don't even understand themselves, nevermind the nature of GOD. Humans invent concepts like god, love and righteousness only to use those same ideas to disparage, even kill, those who disagree with them. They actually believe they own those concepts and cannot see the hypocrisy of that. Then they wonder why everything they touch turns to shit. They never look inward to discover the truth; they fear so many things, it's a wonder they're able to crawl out of bed each morning and hold their heads up high. Life was never meant to be such a struggle. No one is listening.

 

[Hollie]

Cast not pearls before swine.
Go from the presence of a foolish man.
Answer not a fool according to his folly. He is a disciple of Richard Dawkins and company.
They choose to reject truth as it suits their perverted beliefs.

Have you ever heard of a prisoner released after years of confinement, leaving prison and proclaiming, "I'm a new man!
I found atheism in prison and it set me free. Now I'm brilliant like all those oh-so-happy atheists!"

No, you have not and you will not. Atheists are miserable sinners, who like other sinners, want to drag as many down into the cesspool with themselves as they possibly can.

Let's Examine Claims of Atheists

Gee, whiz. While you Jimmy Swaggert worshippers spend your lives consumed by self-hate, who is it that lives in a cesspool?

Virtually every post of yours is the same rant screeching about your hate for Dawkins, non-xtians and everyone else who doesn't believe as you do.

The history of religious extremists such as yourself is really dark. It speaks to an insensate anger and a totalitarian ideology.

The concept of forced religion is one the Founding Fathers addressed in the Constitution.

The library of congress (link below), has an enormous catalog of early American history. It’s also important to remember that the framers of the Constitution were aware the early colonies of settlers were conclaves of religious intolerance, wherein a Baptist in one colony was safe, but a Roman Catholic was a criminal, yet in a different colony the reverse was true. This is completely unworkable and the Founding Fathers knew it.

The various sects of Christianity were completely at odds with one another as colonial states. Catholics couldn't live in one state, Quakers were executed if they went to another, Protestants were reviled in still others, and so on. These documents still exist. Anyone can research the laws of the original 13 colonies.

America as a Religious Refuge: The Seventeenth Century, Part 2 - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)

Puritans expelled dissenters from their colonies, including Roger Williams and Anne Hutchinson. Although they were victims of religious persecution in Europe, the Puritans supported the theory that sanctioned it, the need for uniformity of religion in the state.

www.loc.gov

 

[surada]

RE: Which God
SUBTOPIC: Human Understanding
⁜→ ChemEngineer, et al,
.
IF the Supreme Being is responsible for the design and brought into existence the Human Being (an inferior entity) THEN → the result demonstrates just how imperfect and defective the Creator's design has been.
.

(COMMENT)
.
An all-powerful Being capable of creating the entirety of the universe with just a thought and has no need to teach and convert inferior entities to a particular protocol or way of life. An all-powerful Being, with a thought, creates the life-form with the desired characteristics already formed.
.

(COMMENT)
.
Free Will is an illusion. The illusion make humanity feel like it has some measure of control. (The "feel-good" impression.)

IF the Creator knows today what decision you will make tomorrow (through perfect knowledge) THEN tomorrow you will have no option other than to comply with what the Creator knew to be true the day before. Otherwise, IF you deviate from the Creator's prediction THEN the Creator does NOT have perfect knowledge. This is the paradox of Free Will.
.

(COMMENT)
.
Humanity (particularly the followers of the Abrahamic Religions) has demonstrated that there is an internal conflict as to morality, as an example is the half-dozen (or so) Crusades, the wars in the name of the Almighty.

IF the Creator wanted the "Question of Palestine" (particularly the status of Jerusalem) to be resolved, THEN with just a thought, the Supreme Being would make it happen, and the followers of the Abrahamic Religions would come to a consensus → singing Kum Ba Yah by Sundown.
'

.
(COMMENT)

Does this mean that everyone has the same morality?

This is the Paradox of "morality." While all of humanity has the life force from the same source (the Creator), the Source did not disseminate the same measure of morality.

(EPILOG)
.
IF you are the Supreme Being with the universe (and everything in it) at your command, everything by your design, by your specifications THEN what need is there for the Ten Commandments?

According to the legend, every time King Solomon went into the Holy of Holies (the most sacred place with the Temple of Jerusalem and Tabernacle), Solomon's First Oration (according to the Ars Notoria • The Notory Art of Solomon) contained the prayer passage:

"I humbly implore and beseech, that thou wilt mercifully with the Father, illustrate my Minde with the beams of thy holy Spirit, that I may be able to come and attain to the perfection of this most holy Art; and that I may be able to gain the knowledge of every Science, Art, and Wisdom; and of every Faculty of Memory, Intelligences, Understanding, and Intellect, by the Vertue and Power of thy most holy Spirit, and in thy Name."​

No one actually knows if the Grand Deity ever responded. We do know that in the Three Millenium that followed, Jerusalem was never under divine protection and is still in a low-intensity conflict between factions of the Abrahamic Religions; all claiming to have the same source of moral judgment.
.

Most Respectfully,
R

So God must have sanctioned the Holocaust???

What about the notion that we're made in God's image? Did you throw that out?

 

[surada]

Gee, whiz. While you Jimmy Swaggert worshippers spend your lives consumed by self-hate, who is it that lives in a cesspool?

Virtually every post of yours is the same rant screeching about your hate for Dawkins, non-xtians and everyone else who doesn't believe as you do.

The history of religious extremists such as yourself is really dark. It speaks to an insensate anger and a totalitarian ideology.

The concept of forced religion is one the Founding Fathers addressed in the Constitution.

The library of congress (link below), has an enormous catalog of early American history. It’s also important to remember that the framers of the Constitution were aware the early colonies of settlers were conclaves of religious intolerance, wherein a Baptist in one colony was safe, but a Roman Catholic was a criminal, yet in a different colony the reverse was true. This is completely unworkable and the Founding Fathers knew it.

The various sects of Christianity were completely at odds with one another as colonial states. Catholics couldn't live in one state, Quakers were executed if they went to another, Protestants were reviled in still others, and so on. These documents still exist. Anyone can research the laws of the original 13 colonies.

America as a Religious Refuge: The Seventeenth Century, Part 2 - Religion and the Founding of the American Republic | Exhibitions (Library of Congress)

Puritans expelled dissenters from their colonies, including Roger Williams and Anne Hutchinson. Although they were victims of religious persecution in Europe, the Puritans supported the theory that sanctioned it, the need for uniformity of religion in the state.

www.loc.gov

Quakers, Huguenots and Anabaptists didn't get along either.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Which God
SUBTOPIC: Human Understanding
⁜→ surada, et al,

Follow the dots... You might believe that The One Deity sanctioned the Eradication Effort known as the Holocaust, but that is NOT had the facts presented in this discussion has said (so far).

So God must have sanctioned the Holocaust???

(COMMENT)

IF The One Deity (the biblical The God of Abraham) possesses the three essential powers: (Courtesy of
The WONDERFUL ATTRIBUTES OF YOUR FATHER GOD)

◈ The "God of Abraham is all-powerful" (Omnipotence)​

◈ The "God of Abraham is all-knowing" (Omniscience)​

​

◈ The "God of Abraham is everywhere all the time (Omniscience)​

IF The Creator of the universe is all-powerful THEN The Creator could have set the conditions such that humanity would not have been able to carry-out the Holaust. The Creator would have not allowed the development of the human brain generate the thought of such a perverse action. IF the all-powerful Creator and engineered human life forms, and did not want the Holocaust, THEN the Creator made a mistake in the creation of humanity and was not able to correct the mistake.

IF The Creator of the universe is all-knowing THEN The Creator had foreknowledge that the Holocaust would occur, and allowed it to proceed. That means The God of Abraham gave tacit approval for the holocaust to proceed.

IF The Creator of the universe is present everywhere at every moment in time along the linear past, present and future, THEN The Creator THEN the Creator saw the future (the Hilocaust) been humanity and had the ability to alter the future by changing the past and the future.

What about the notion that we're made in God's image? Did you throw that out?

(COMMENT)

The Creator of the universe (The God of Abraham) only ever presented himself as a Burning Bush or booming voice from the great beyond. Jesus was the personification of the Son of God. The Holy Spirit was never recorded as having been personified in human form. I do not know of any pictoral rendition of the Holy Spirit taking Human form.

Just My Limited Understanding,

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[surada]

RE: Which God
SUBTOPIC: Human Understanding
⁜→ surada, et al,

Follow the dots... You might believe that The One Deity sanctioned the Eradication Effort known as the Holocaust, but that is NOT had the facts presented in this discussion has said (so far).


(COMMENT)

IF The One Deity (the biblical The God of Abraham) possesses the three essential powers: (Courtesy of
The WONDERFUL ATTRIBUTES OF YOUR FATHER GOD)

◈ The "God of Abraham is all-powerful" (Omnipotence)​

◈ The "God of Abraham is all-knowing" (Omniscience)​

​

◈ The "God of Abraham is everywhere all the time (Omniscience)​

IF The Creator of the universe is all-powerful THEN The Creator could have set the conditions such that humanity would not have been able to carry-out the Holaust. The Creator would have not allowed the development of the human brain generate the thought of such a perverse action. IF the all-powerful Creator and engineered human life forms, and did not want the Holocaust, THEN the Creator made a mistake in the creation of humanity and was not able to correct the mistake.

IF The Creator of the universe is all-knowing THEN The Creator had foreknowledge that the Holocaust would occur, and allowed it to proceed. That means The God of Abraham gave tacit approval for the holocaust to proceed.

IF The Creator of the universe is present everywhere at every moment in time along the linear past, present and future, THEN The Creator THEN the Creator saw the future (the Hilocaust) been humanity and had the ability to alter the future by changing the past and the future.


(COMMENT)

The Creator of the universe (The God of Abraham) only ever presented himself as a Burning Bush or booming voice from the great beyond. Jesus was the personification of the Son of God. The Holy Spirit was never recorded as having been personified in human form. I do not know of any pictoral rendition of the Holy Spirit taking Human form.

Just My Limited Understanding,

Most Respectfully,
R

I can't pretend to know exactly, but I don't believe God sanctioned the Holocaust.

We don't resemble a burning bush or a booming voice. That's not our image.

 

[Stann]

RE: Which God
SUBTOPIC: Human Understanding
⁜→ surada, et al,

Follow the dots... You might believe that The One Deity sanctioned the Eradication Effort known as the Holocaust, but that is NOT had the facts presented in this discussion has said (so far).


(COMMENT)

IF The One Deity (the biblical The God of Abraham) possesses the three essential powers: (Courtesy of
The WONDERFUL ATTRIBUTES OF YOUR FATHER GOD)

◈ The "God of Abraham is all-powerful" (Omnipotence)​

◈ The "God of Abraham is all-knowing" (Omniscience)​

​

◈ The "God of Abraham is everywhere all the time (Omniscience)​

IF The Creator of the universe is all-powerful THEN The Creator could have set the conditions such that humanity would not have been able to carry-out the Holaust. The Creator would have not allowed the development of the human brain generate the thought of such a perverse action. IF the all-powerful Creator and engineered human life forms, and did not want the Holocaust, THEN the Creator made a mistake in the creation of humanity and was not able to correct the mistake.

IF The Creator of the universe is all-knowing THEN The Creator had foreknowledge that the Holocaust would occur, and allowed it to proceed. That means The God of Abraham gave tacit approval for the holocaust to proceed.

IF The Creator of the universe is present everywhere at every moment in time along the linear past, present and future, THEN The Creator THEN the Creator saw the future (the Hilocaust) been humanity and had the ability to alter the future by changing the past and the future.


(COMMENT)

The Creator of the universe (The God of Abraham) only ever presented himself as a Burning Bush or booming voice from the great beyond. Jesus was the personification of the Son of God. The Holy Spirit was never recorded as having been personified in human form. I do not know of any pictoral rendition of the Holy Spirit taking Human form.

Just My Limited Understanding,

Most Respectfully,
R

And that understanding of GOD is very limited, it is based upon the beliefs of primitive peoples.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Which God
SUBTOPIC: Human Understanding
⁜→ Stann, et al,

And that understanding of GOD is very limited, it is based upon the beliefs of primitive peoples.

(QUESTION)

What are you say in this comment? Are you saying that the Supreme Being, the Creator of the Universe and all it contains, is NOT

◈ Omnipotence​

​

◈ Omniscience​

​

◈ Omnipresent​

Are you saying that there is no Supreme Being?

Are you saying that the God of Abraham is subject to the same flaws as humans?

Most Respectfully,
R
.

 

[RoccoR]

RE: Which God
SUBTOPIC: Human Understanding
⁜→ surada, et al,

You will have to help me out here.

I can't pretend to know exactly, but I don't believe God sanctioned the Holocaust.

(COMMENT)

I do not believe that any mortal has the answer to that question.

What is relatively interesting, are the questions:

​

◈ Could the God of Abraham prevented implanted the moral imperative in humans that would have prevented the Holocaust?​

​

◈ And if the God of Abraham could have set the moral imperative, but did not do so, what does that say about the deity?​

We don't resemble a burning bush or a booming voice. That's not our image.

(QUESTIONS)

You are right. So are we made in the Creator's image?

How do we know, other than the testimonial of Moses, what the Creator looks like?

We actually know very little about the Creator (if there is even such a thing). Yet, humanity, especially the clergy, assign all sorts of values and characteristics to the assumed entity known as the creator.

What do we know? How did we acquire that knowledge?
.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Stann]

RE: Which God
SUBTOPIC: Human Understanding
⁜→ Stann, et al,


(QUESTION)

What are you say in this comment? Are you saying that the Supreme Being, the Creator of the Universe and all it contains, is NOT

◈ Omnipotence​

​

◈ Omniscience​

​

◈ Omnipresent​

Are you saying that there is no Supreme Being?

Are you saying that the God of Abraham is subject to the same flaws as humans?

Most Respectfully,
R
.

I'm saying all religious gods are man-made, therefore they are just as flawed as mankind is. Even in reality, what you call the Creator being is not perfect. It's imperfection was the causality which encouraged it to bring about the creation of this physical universe. It was an attempt to resolve an issue it / they had in their universe. As for how that worked out, let it suffice to say, it's still a work in progress.

 

[rylah]

RE: Which God
SUBTOPIC: Human Understanding
⁜→ ChemEngineer, et al,
.
IF the Supreme Being is responsible for the design and brought into existence the Human Being (an inferior entity) THEN → the result demonstrates just how imperfect and defective the Creator's design has been.
.

(COMMENT)
.
An all-powerful Being capable of creating the entirety of the universe with just a thought and has no need to teach and convert inferior entities to a particular protocol or way of life. An all-powerful Being, with a thought, creates the life-form with the desired characteristics already formed.
.

(COMMENT)
.
Free Will is an illusion. The illusion make humanity feel like it has some measure of control. (The "feel-good" impression.)

IF the Creator knows today what decision you will make tomorrow (through perfect knowledge) THEN tomorrow you will have no option other than to comply with what the Creator knew to be true the day before. Otherwise, IF you deviate from the Creator's prediction THEN the Creator does NOT have perfect knowledge. This is the paradox of Free Will.
.

(COMMENT)
.
Humanity (particularly the followers of the Abrahamic Religions) has demonstrated that there is an internal conflict as to morality, as an example is the half-dozen (or so) Crusades, the wars in the name of the Almighty.

IF the Creator wanted the "Question of Palestine" (particularly the status of Jerusalem) to be resolved, THEN with just a thought, the Supreme Being would make it happen, and the followers of the Abrahamic Religions would come to a consensus → singing Kum Ba Yah by Sundown.
'

.
(COMMENT)

Does this mean that everyone has the same morality?

This is the Paradox of "morality." While all of humanity has the life force from the same source (the Creator), the Source did not disseminate the same measure of morality.

(EPILOG)
.
IF you are the Supreme Being with the universe (and everything in it) at your command, everything by your design, by your specifications THEN what need is there for the Ten Commandments?

According to the legend, every time King Solomon went into the Holy of Holies (the most sacred place with the Temple of Jerusalem and Tabernacle), Solomon's First Oration (according to the Ars Notoria • The Notory Art of Solomon) contained the prayer passage:

"I humbly implore and beseech, that thou wilt mercifully with the Father, illustrate my Minde with the beams of thy holy Spirit, that I may be able to come and attain to the perfection of this most holy Art; and that I may be able to gain the knowledge of every Science, Art, and Wisdom; and of every Faculty of Memory, Intelligences, Understanding, and Intellect, by the Vertue and Power of thy most holy Spirit, and in thy Name."​

No one actually knows if the Grand Deity ever responded. We do know that in the Three Millenium that followed, Jerusalem was never under divine protection and is still in a low-intensity conflict between factions of the Abrahamic Religions; all claiming to have the same source of moral judgment.
.

Most Respectfully,
R

Beautifully put, classic Greek questions.
Thanks for the logical sincerity without cynicism.

This is an interesting subject, and You're way ahead
reading the Gmara with knowledge of Greek literature.
without which, a lot is missing in the context of their conversation.

Before addressing specific points I'd like to say the general direction,
assuming You'll imply the various possible logical outcomes,
intuitively understand the rest.

The typical children answer to Greek logic,
is that none of the dichotomies bounding
our intellectual grasping, bound G-d.

They only make sense when
addressing G-d as an object
WHAT, rather than WHO.

Objects have functions,
subjects have will.

Logicially all works according to Greeks, and Muslims
G-d shouldn't be needing anything, and free will
is but an illusion, if logically.

However what G-d wants to need,
is a whole other question,
about the who rather
the what.

Philosophy is natural to the post-Prophecy period.
Before that there was no shred of ANY atheism
or a question of whether G-d was answering,
it was the COLLECTIVE HUMAN reality.

The ideological break today is its' return,
so loud as in almost breaking the doors.

 

[Stann]

However what G-d wants to need,
is a whole other question,
about the who rather
the what.

What the entity you refer to as GOD was attempting to do in creating the physical universe was end a paradox that confronted it's | their universe.

 

[BreezeWood]

RE: Which God
SUBTOPIC: Human Understanding
⁜→ surada, et al,

You will have to help me out here.


(COMMENT)

I do not believe that any mortal has the answer to that question.

What is relatively interesting, are the questions:

​

◈ Could the God of Abraham prevented implanted the moral imperative in humans that would have prevented the Holocaust?​

​

◈ And if the God of Abraham could have set the moral imperative, but did not do so, what does that say about the deity?​

(QUESTIONS)

You are right. So are we made in the Creator's image?

How do we know, other than the testimonial of Moses, what the Creator looks like?

We actually know very little about the Creator (if there is even such a thing). Yet, humanity, especially the clergy, assign all sorts of values and characteristics to the assumed entity known as the creator.

What do we know? How did we acquire that knowledge?
.

Most Respectfully,
R

You are right. So are we made in the Creator's image?

- all beings are made in the image of those in the heavens ...

 

[Stann]

- all beings are made in the image of those in the heavens ...

What intelligent design puts a sewer plant next to a playground.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

An Atheist won't ask "Which God?" for the simple fact that the Atheist does not allow for the existence of a "God"...

Of course they do. And funny how Atheists will argue FROM THE BIBLE which they claim not to believe in.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

That’s a nice little story but it doesn’t prove there’s s god. If you get a buzz from it, knock yourself out.

Because you haven't had her experiences, you cannot understand what she is saying.

I have faith, but I have faith BECAUSE I know He exists and is active in my life. You haven't had my experiences either so you cannot KNOW He exists. You cannot prove the existence of God except He REVEAL Himself to you

 

[Stann]

Pretty simple answer.

The God you believe in.

Anything else I can help out with?

And all beliefs in religious gods are inconsequential.

 

[Stann]

Of course they do. And funny how Atheists will argue FROM THE BIBLE which they claim not to believe in.

Actually, it is the religious who attempt to prove their gods existence by utilizing the supporting religious dogma as if it were fact, rather than the superstitious beliefs they are.