When is an embryo/fetus a human life?

[schmidlap]

I'm not convinced that it is a human life from the moment of conception (given that it doesn't have a brain, for example), but at some point during pregnancy, I believe it qualifies as a human life.

If people are merely arguing that it is a "potential life" from the moment of conception, then preventing a potential life from coming into existence obviously isn't the same as taking a life from existence. (If that was true, then if a person only has 2 children when they have the ability to have 5 means they should be charged with 3 counts of murder, and we know that is absurd).

Most rational folks know that a microscopic, mindless amalgam of cells is not a person.

Extremists can fantasize otherwise; they can't force their notion upon everyone else.

 

[iamwhatiseem]

I'm not convinced that it is a human life from the moment of conception (given that it doesn't have a brain, for example), but at some point during pregnancy, I believe it qualifies as a human life.

If people are merely arguing that it is a "potential life" from the moment of conception, then preventing a potential life from coming into existence obviously isn't the same as taking a life from existence. (If that was true, then if a person only has 2 children when they have the ability to have 5 means they should be charged with 3 counts of murder, and we know that is absurd).

Moment of conception. A little thing called Deoxyribonucleic acid.
The moment you, as a sperm cell entered your mothers egg - this substance began creating you. All derived from your unique lineage of your ancestors.

 

[Chuz Life]

Most rational folks know that a microscopic, mindless amalgams of cells is not a person.

Extremists can fantasize otherwise; they can't force their notion upon everyone else.

Do you think things (especially important things) like "persons" should be defined by the attributes they HAVE? Or should the attributes they have be dismissed and disregarded, until we just can't justify the denial anymore?

I sure would appreciate a well-thought-out, considerate answer to that.

 

[schmidlap]

life is life .. human life begins at conception .. an abortion at any stage ends human life .

A human being that has been declared brain-dead is the equivalent of a microscopic amalgam of cells before a functioning brain had developed.

 

[irosie91]

A human being that has been declared brain-dead is the equivalent of a microscopic amalgam of cells before a functioning brain had developed.

Not to the mother of the patient

 

[Chuz Life]

A human being that has been declared brain-dead is the equivalent of a microscopic amalgam of cells before a functioning brain had developed.

Only in your opinion. That is.

 

[Chuz Life]

Not to the mother of the patient

Or father. In my case.

 

[schmidlap]

Do you think things (especially important things) like "persons" should be defined by the attributes they HAVE? Or should the attributes they have be dismissed and disregarded, until we just can't justify the denial anymore?

I sure would appreciate a well-thought-out, considerate answer to that.

I recognize a functioning brain is an essential attribute of every living person, but anyone who differs should be respected, just as they should respect everyone who shares my view,

No one should dictate to everyone else, and a female's loved ones, and trusted medical and spiritual advisers, are far preferable to anonymous politicians and bureaucrats issuing blanket edicts.

 

[irosie91]

Or father. In my case.

uhm -----sorry if you faced that.......

 

[DukeU]

With Adam, God formed Adam...but Adam did not have life until God breathed life in to him, not until the first breath taken, did Adam have LIFE.

Apples and oranges.

Adam was created from dust of the Earth and was created as an adult.

 

[toobfreak]

I respectfully disagree. A zygote IS a human being, just in the very earliest stages of life.

True. And I think Leo said that even if he doesn't realize it. A zygote is a human being at its first stage of development. Development is the essential quality of life. All living things develop and grow until the time of their death.

A sunflower seed IS a sunflower!

A germinating sunflower seed is a sunflower!

A germinating sunflower seed emerging from the soil is a sunflower!

A sunflower dicotyledon is a sunflower!

A young sunflower with no seed head is still a sunflower.

Just as every thunderstorm begins with a raindrop, while a sunflower or a person may change is size and appearance, at every natural stage, they are still true to who and what they are.

If I take a sunflower seed apart or a zygote and analyze them, I will find everything that makes a sunflower or a person there, right down to the nuclear code.

Whether a seed or a zygote, both are simply nature's way of replacing something very big with something practically and conveniently small, which then grows up to reach its full, final size again.

 

[ThisIsMe]

I'm not convinced that it is a human life from the moment of conception (given that it doesn't have a brain, for example), but at some point during pregnancy, I believe it qualifies as a human life.

If people are merely arguing that it is a "potential life" from the moment of conception, then preventing a potential life from coming into existence obviously isn't the same as taking a life from existence. (If that was true, then if a person only has 2 children when they have the ability to have 5 means they should be charged with 3 counts of murder, and we know that is absurd).

If a drunk driver hits a woman who is 6 weeks pregnant and causes her to lose the pregnancy, can he be charged with murder?

 

[Midnight FM]

Only in your opinion. That is.

A person who is clinically braindead can be legally taken off of life support, so this strongly implies that the brain or consciousness plays a role in defining what is a human life.

 

[Midnight FM]

True. And I think Leo said that even if he doesn't realize it. A zygote is a human being at its first stage of development. Development is the essential quality of life. All living things develop and grow until the time of their death.

A sunflower seed IS a sunflower!
View attachment 1140930
A germinating sunflower seed is a sunflower!

A germinating sunflower seed emerging from the soil is a sunflower!

A sunflower dicotyledon is a sunflower!

A young sunflower with no seed head is still a sunflower.

Just as every thunderstorm begins with a raindrop, while a sunflower or a person may change is size and appearance, at every natural stage, they are still true to who and what they are.

If I take a sunflower seed apart or a zygote and analyze them, I will find everything that makes a sunflower or a person there, right down to the nuclear code.

Whether a seed or a zygote, both are simply nature's way of replacing something very big with something practically and conveniently small, which then grows up to reach its full, final size again.

You're presuming that human life is defined by having DNA. I would argue that that's a poor definition, given that human skin cells may be a form of life, and have human DNA, but are not a human life.

This, again, sounds like one is conflating "potential life" with being an actual life.

 

[toobfreak]

You're presuming that human life is defined by having DNA.

Where did I "presume" that?" All I meant was that even if you take just a single cell from a human zygote, it will be just as human as an adult. It will not be that of a tree, or a frog, or a butterfly. The main difference between a zygote and a grown adult is SIZE.

I would argue that that's a poor definition,

It was /your/ definition.

given that human skin cells may be a form of life, and have human DNA, but are not a human life.

Yet you can clone a whole new human from that cell. You can't clone a human from a tree cell.

 

[DGS49]

The point is, nobody knows when human life starts. The logical response to this reality is, Don't kill anything that might be a human life.

Here's an analogy that I like. Imagine a forest that is used to grain artillery weapons. Monday morning rolls around and a day of practice is about to start. The CO is informed that a large group of "hippies" camped out in the forest the preceding weekend. He asks the First Sergeant if all the Yoots are out of there. The First Sergeant responds, "Probably." THis is not satisfactory to the CO. Unless he knows that nobody remains in the forest, he will not start shooting. The First Sergeant sends a platoon out to see if they see any hippies in the woods. They come back an hour later. The First Sergeant tells the CO, "We are pretty sure there is no one out there." Still, the CO will not commence firing.

In fact, he will not start the operation until he is absolutely certain that no living person is in those woods. No matter what it takes.

You don't kill a living thing unless you are absolutely certain that it is not a person. Which is not possible with respect to a developing human, regardless of the stage.

 

[Midnight FM]

Where did I "presume" that?" All I meant was that even if you take just a single cell from a human zygote, it will be just as human as an adult. It will not be that of a tree, or a frog, or a butterfly. The main difference between a zygote and a grown adult is SIZE.

No it isn't. An adult has far more complex consciousness than a zygote does.

Yet you can clone a whole new human from that cell. You can't clone a human from a tree cell.

I fail to see what your point is. You can "clone" a new skyscraper from a blueprint. That doesn't mean a blueprint is a skyscraper.

 

[toobfreak]

The point is, nobody knows when human life starts.

Sure we do. Does it begin BEFORE conception?

Obviously not.

Therefore, it must begin AFTER conception.

An oak tree begins once the acorn seed sprouts. After that, every stage of growth and development is that of a tiny oak tree.

Same thing with a person. Just because a child is smaller and younger than a grown adult makes him no less human. Killing either is murder. The act of birth is merely that transition point between where a human can live outside the mother's body and cannot, the more complex the life, the longer the gestation period.

 

[toobfreak]

No it isn't. An adult has far more complex consciousness than a zygote does.
I fail to see what your point is.

That is obvious as none of your arguments are even germane. Consciousness is not a condition of life. More to the point, a human is still a human even if braindead. More importantly, consciousness is a quality limited only to higher life forms and is an attribute which grows and develops over time as an accumulative quality.

 

[Midnight FM]

That is obvious as none of your arguments are even germane. Consciousness is not a condition of life. More to the point, a human is still a human even if braindead.

Legally, braindead people can be taken off of life support. So I would argue that they're not a "human life" in the same way that a person with a functioning brain is.

More importantly, consciousness is a quality limited only to higher life forms and is an attribute which grows and develops over time as an accumulative quality.

And lower forms of life which lack consciousness typically don't have rights enshrined into the law.

Animals, such as dogs and cats, have some rights because they have a measure of consciousness, but not the same rights as humans have, because they have less complex consciousness.