Debate Now What should be the goal of our prison system?

[Weatherman2020]

There are indeed some there on purpose. They don't want to be free. I talked with a few that had that mindset and thought it was crazy. But I do think they are a small minority and a result of becoming instutionalized

There are others who have been in so long social skills are gone. The world changed. Adapting is close to impossible.

There’s a lot of skills. For example I know someone who works at a prison showing prisoners how to work the dairy Farm the prison has.

All well and good, but is it practical when they get out?

I’d rather see them learn what’s not yours is not yours.

Learning a trade goes a long way with anyone choosing to walk the straight and narrow path.

 

[Weatherman2020]

There are indeed some there on purpose. They don't want to be free. I talked with a few that had that mindset and thought it was crazy. But I do think they are a small minority and a result of becoming instutionalized

There are others who have been in so long social skills are gone. The world changed. Adapting is close to impossible.

There’s a lot of skills. For example I know someone who works at a prison showing prisoners how to work the dairy Farm the prison has.

All well and good, but is it practical when they get out?

I’d rather see them learn what’s not yours is not yours.

You’ve probably seen this bread in your grocery store. The owner only hires ex-felons.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

There are indeed some there on purpose. They don't want to be free. I talked with a few that had that mindset and thought it was crazy. But I do think they are a small minority and a result of becoming instutionalized

There are others who have been in so long social skills are gone. The world changed. Adapting is close to impossible.

There’s a lot of skills. For example I know someone who works at a prison showing prisoners how to work the dairy Farm the prison has.

All well and good, but is it practical when they get out?

I’d rather see them learn what’s not yours is not yours.

You’ve probably seen this bread in your grocery store. The owner only hires ex-felons.
View attachment 340421

I think that Ramsey guy has a prison program that teaches convicts IN PRISON.

 

[Weatherman2020]

There are indeed some there on purpose. They don't want to be free. I talked with a few that had that mindset and thought it was crazy. But I do think they are a small minority and a result of becoming instutionalized

There are others who have been in so long social skills are gone. The world changed. Adapting is close to impossible.

There’s a lot of skills. For example I know someone who works at a prison showing prisoners how to work the dairy Farm the prison has.

All well and good, but is it practical when they get out?

I’d rather see them learn what’s not yours is not yours.

You’ve probably seen this bread in your grocery store. The owner only hires ex-felons.
View attachment 340421

I think that Ramsey guy has a prison program that teaches convicts IN PRISON.

I posted this a few years ago about rehab of criminals:
80% of the inmates in Angola prison are serving life sentences without the possibility of parole. Angola prison had been averaging 40 murders a year when the new warden stepped in. His first actions were to have everyone treated as if they were created in the image of God. All people should be treated with that dignity. No swearing by prisoners or guards was allowed. People who died in prison would get wooden coffins, not the cardboard that had been used.

The next step was to create Christian seminaries in the prison to teach people how God has reached out to them so that He may always be with them. Through private funding a Christian college and several chapels were built. Inmates are free to attend as they wish.

Today there are a number of prisoners who are now ordained Pastors. Most inmates now attend the college or services. Even Muslims attend. And Angola has gone from 40 murders a year to not one since 1996.

 

[Bloodrock444]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

Nice post, Grampa, thanks.

Any opinion on the subject?

No opinion but I know here in NC they calculate the number of prison beds they need based on the # of 3rd graders in the school system. Have no idea how it works.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

While I've never been in prison, I grew up in the atmosphere. My father was a professional mercenary and his last stint was 11 years on a federal conspiracy to commit murder rap. I've had cousins who were career criminals and one that became a tv ambulance chaser and I've been involved with the law and have been a foster parent / DFCS asset before. I wrote about this stuff extensively a couple of years ago. Even tried to get a bill introduced in the state legislature. Problem is - everybody wants a quick fix and they don't want the real answer.

In today's atmosphere, there are a lot of tools at the disposal of the system IF they knew how to use them. We should start with crime prevention and then work our way toward identifying potential threats before they become what you were.

Our first and foremost problem in America is that parents, school officials, the government, doctors, and Big Pharma are killing kids with drugs. The drug addicts are made with "legal" drugs, starting with things like Adderall or Ritalin for what are, basically non-existent problems. At the first sign of hyperactivity, the doctors rush for the prescription pad, not a questionnaire to find the source of the real problem. Then, as children grow older, they are put on SSRIs (those are so dangerous that all mass shooters are on SSRIs OR political jihadists.) That only encourages kids to experiment with illegal drugs. Put into perspective, for every drug addict in a health care facility receiving treatment, MORE than ten are in prison. The United States consumes over 80 percent of the world's opioid supply.

So, my first solution is that drugs only be prescribed as a last resort. There are plenty of therapies that can be employed before drugs. Drugs are no substitute for lifestyle changes. Having said that, we're going back to when you were 16. I'll try not to take up a lot of space, but start there.

What we should do is focus on identifying and treating children before they become a problem. Sooo... what I would do, since we now have National ID Cards (that I hate, for the record) is to have each county with their own Special Response Team. Here is how it works:

If you are under 18 a system would be in place so that every time a child generated an incident (reprimand at school, report of wrong-going, generated a police report, got arrested, etc.) it would be entered into a database. If that child generated three occurrences, the Special Response Team (SRT) springs into action. They have someone interview the child and another team member would show up at the parent's home and discuss the concerns. The SRT would be ready to assist the parents in referring them to programs to help them and / or their children.

If, within 45 days, the child generates another incident report, the SRT would respond within TEN business days and arrange to meet the parents, ask to go for a walk through of the house, ask pertinent questions such as any drug habits of the parents or others in the household, criminal records, etc. The child would be interviewed by two different mental health officials and another person to determine the child's IQ, skills and abilities, interests, diet, sleep / exercise / study regimen, possible drug habits, etc. and a determination made on how to address the problems. At this point, the parents can opt for whatever treatment is available via the government OR seek help through their own insurance.

Then, if another 45 days go by and the child gets another incident report, the SRT acts immediately to mandate that the child enroll in whatever program is required. The SRT would then do a complete criminal background check of everyone in the household, obtain a list of drugs that the child has done and is doing along with treatments / therapies past and present. At this stage, a person under 18 would not qualify for bail. If the child and /or parents refuse, the child is pulled from the home and put into a special program for wayward children. So, this SRT has to have a cost attached and where are we going to get the manpower for the programs?

After a school closes for the business day, the classrooms, auditorium, etc. could be used for parenting skills if the parents need parenting classes. There are rooms for counseling, one on one and group session. There could be a children's version of AA for those with substance abuse problems. There would be remedial classes so that tutors could work with these children. AND, all of that must be attempted for at least six months before pulling out that prescription pad. Since you are not wasting money on numerous calls to the same homes, jamming up jails with kids, and having the bureaucratic nightmare you have right now, you have money to pay counselors and mental health officials along with remedial assistance costs. You save money, not blow it.

And there is no need to worry. All these records are never available to the public. Now, if that interests you, I will continue on to show you how to deal with adults that get into trouble.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

It appears the OP abandoned their thread. Just for the record, however, when dealing with adult offenders, the goals of the prison should be:

1) Punish the offender

2) Rehabilitate them

3) Make them earn any early release (like get a GED, job training skills, interpersonal skills, drug rehab, etc. while incarcerated)

4) Help them transition back into society (work / probation program)

5) They pay restitution

6) Return to society as equals (not labeled for the rest of their lives and locked out of society AND be expected to be a productive citizen

 

[Sunsettommy]

Good post.

The goal should be to equip these people with the tools they need to function in society.

Our prison system currently is not equipped to do that.

Sadly I don't know the whoops answer.

Education should certainly be a part, not just "readin' writin' and 'rithmatic" but social education and coping skills as well. A trade is a necessity as well. They also could use job placement and a support network.

Obviously all.of them can't be rehabilitated. Serial killers shouldn't be released for instance.

My ¢.02.

Actually some prisons are doing that, but it depends on consistent funding and political support, which is why it is a tenuous situation.

 

[Quasar44]

USA needs far more prisons than ever before

 

[westwall]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

To be honest I feel only violent offenders should be in jail, and it should be for a very, very long time.

 

[Vastator]

No opinion but I know here in NC they calculate the number of prison beds they need based on the # of 3rd graders in the school system. Have no idea how it works.

Single mothers... Thats how.

 

[Vastator]

It appears the OP abandoned their thread. Just for the record, however, when dealing with adult offenders, the goals of the prison should be:

1) Punish the offender

2) Rehabilitate them

3) Make them earn any early release (like get a GED, job training skills, interpersonal skills, drug rehab, etc. while incarcerated)

4) Help them transition back into society (work / probation program)

5) They pay restitution

6) Return to society as equals (not labeled for the rest of their lives and locked out of society AND be expected to be a productive citizen

#6 On your list is a near guarantee that once a person has been put into the system; they'll be in, and out of it forever more.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

It appears the OP abandoned their thread.

Naw, sometimes I just read the responses rather than try to debate every point.
Also a lot of times I'm not even notified of responses such as your June 8th post.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

USA needs far more prisons than ever before

Actually, we need to cut the number of prisons in half. We already have more people in prison than nation on this planet. China has four times the population and we have more people in prison than communist China! If you're going to participate in this, you really should read the thread so we don't have to end up beating a dead horse.

 

[Porter Rockwell]

#6 On your list is a near guarantee that once a person has been put into the system; they'll be in, and out of it forever more.

That is absolutely false. Taking a person's Liberty, making them a second class citizen, making them less equal than the rest of humanity, locking them out of the system so that they cannot get a job or credit or a place to live is the guarantee that they will be in the revolving door of recidivism.

 

[Vastator]

We also need to revisit our interpretation of “cruel, and unusual punishment”.

 

[Vastator]

That is absolutely false. Taking a person's Liberty, making them a second class citizen, making them less equal than the rest of humanity, locking them out of the system so that they cannot get a job or credit or a place to live is the guarantee that they will be in the revolving door of recidivism.

Yeah... That’s what I said...

 

[Porter Rockwell]

Yeah... That’s what I said...

Maybe I misunderstood. The whole idea is to rehabilitate a person, punish them, and give them the tools they need to be successful. All we're accomplishing now is an iron clad guarantee that once a person acquires a record, their lives are pretty much shot, regardless of how much effort they put into being a productive citizen.

 

[Vastator]

Maybe I misunderstood. The whole idea is to rehabilitate a person, punish them, and give them the tools they need to be successful. All we're accomplishing now is an iron clad guarantee that once a person acquires a record, their lives are pretty much shot, regardless of how much effort they put into being a productive citizen.

I agree.

 

[Quasar44]

Actually, we need to cut the number of prisons in half. We already have more people in prison than nation on this planet. China has four times the population and we have more people in prison than communist China! If you're going to participate in this, you really should read the thread so we don't have to end up beating a dead horse.

We have more criminals than any place on earth
You cut the prisons and this nation is unlivable