Debate Now What should be the goal of our prison system?

[EvilEyeFleegle]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

You're cool...LOL! I'm reminded of the scene where Richard Pryor tells Gene Wilder to "Act cool" in Stir Crazy..when Gene asks why.... Richard replies, "so they don't f'k you!"!

Crime and punishment. Tough subject. First, I think you need to separate the mentally ill from the issue. Our prisons serve as ad hoc warehouses for those that society chooses not to spend money on...as regards mental health services. It is no accident that prison populations went up when the funding for mental health went down..especially in those cases where an inpatient setting was required.

Then there is the punitive aspect..that society demands. Make a prison too comfortable..too safe--and it doesn't seem like all that much of a disincentive, now does it?

Is the goal to provide society with its 'pound of flesh'? Or...is the goal to prevent recidivism? Hard time hardens--and deepens the antipathy twixt individual and society. Add the extreme difficulty many ex-convicts deal with--and it would seem to me that the counter-intuitional approach is called for...to give people a sense of self-worth..one must treat them as though they are worth something, right? I would ask the heretical question..is punishment...as a goal---even a real part of the discussion? Broken people thrive on punishment...it reinforces their sense of victim-hood...and allows them to commit continued crimes--and bask in their self-justification.

Better to fix the person..if possible.
Often, it is not. Money..and our sense of outrage..stand in the way.

Then..there is the economic/racial component of the problem. The substance abuse issues. The very real fact that in many areas..prison is an industry..providing both jobs and a sense of superiority to folks who have limited skills of their own. Crime is big business...I have a friend who opened a substance abuse testing company...he is a millionaire from testing that parolee piss. California's largest and most influential union is the Correctional Officers Union..how do you think they would take a proposed massive down-turn in prison population?

I think...that in most prisons..the tools exist for someone to rise up...and reforge themselves. It's the culture that stands in the way. The prison culture..and our popular culture. I've often heard complaining about providing convicts with college...why should they get to make that step up..at our expense? The thought that it might prevent crime really does not register with those sort...they don't care.....they just want more time....and more punishment--not seeing that that's just a way to kick the can...and the thought that a crime might have been uncommitted..is too elusive for them to internalize.

Financially...we spend enough on every inmate to send them to college! The cost of incarceration to our economy and our culture may well be incalculable.

The cost of ending incarceration may even be worse? What of justice?

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

For some perspective here was my routine from day one to release.

First 30 days locked down 23 hours a day in solitary confinement while being monitored for illness & possible prison placement. (Worst 30 days of my life)

On day 31 placed in a community cell block with cells made for 1, but housed 2,on a 4 level long row house. (Picture Alcatraz format)
Started kitchen detail for 90 days (that or laundry are the options)
Up every morning at 4 am to begin breakfast prep. Allowed 4 hours of exercise per week in the "yard" for kitchen duty. 3 hours for laundry.
After 90 days allowed classes to finish a GED.
After that placed in construction outfit to build out buildings for 2 years.
3rd year had enough "good behavior" accumulated to become the cell block "janitor" for lack of a better word. Spent the day sweeping, moping and cleaning vacated cells.

There comes a point when you become "institutionalized" and prison is no longer a threat. That is the reason people come back combined with a severe lack of social & marketable skills.

 

[Crick]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

You're cool...LOL! I'm reminded of the scene where Richard Pryor tells Gene Wilder to "Act cool" in Stir Crazy..when Gene asks why.... Richard replies, "so they don't f'k you!"!

Crime and punishment. Tough subject. First, I think you need to separate the mentally ill from the issue. Our prisons serve as ad hoc warehouses for those that society chooses not to spend money on...as regards mental health services. It is no accident that prison populations went up when the funding for mental health went down..especially in those cases where an inpatient setting was required.

Then there is the punitive aspect..that society demands. Make a prison too comfortable..too safe--and it doesn't seem like all that much of a disincentive, now does it?

Is the goal to provide society with its 'pound of flesh'? Or...is the goal to prevent recidivism? Hard time hardens--and deepens the antipathy twixt individual and society. Add the extreme difficulty many ex-convicts deal with--and it would seem to me that the counter-intuitional approach is called for...to give people a sense of self-worth..one must treat them as though they are worth something, right? I would ask the heretical question..is punishment...as a goal---even a real part of the discussion? Broken people thrive on punishment...it reinforces their sense of victim-hood...and allows them to commit continued crimes--and bask in their self-justification.

Better to fix the person..if possible.
Often, it is not. Money..and our sense of outrage..stand in the way.

Then..there is the economic/racial component of the problem. The substance abuse issues. The very real fact that in many areas..prison is an industry..providing both jobs and a sense of superiority to folks who have limited skills of their own. Crime is big business...I have a friend who opened a substance abuse testing company...he is a millionaire from testing that parolee piss. California's largest and most influential union is the Correctional Officers Union..how do you think they would take a proposed massive down-turn in prison population?

I think...that in most prisons..the tools exist for someone to rise up...and reforge themselves. It's the culture that stands in the way. The prison culture..and our popular culture. I've often heard complaining about providing convicts with college...why should they get to make that step up..at our expense? The thought that it might prevent crime really does not register with those sort...they don't care.....they just want more time....and more punishment--not seeing that that's just a way to kick the can...and the thought that a crime might have been uncommitted..is too elusive for them to internalize.

Financially...we spend enough on every inmate to send them to college! The cost of incarceration to our economy and our culture may well be incalculable.

The cost of ending incarceration may even be worse? What of justice?

Reforming inmates is far, far more economical than simply incarcerating them. And justice is far, far better serviced by reforming inmates than allowing recidivism to dominate the process.

 

[TNHarley]

Lethal injection to all felons.
A purge, if you will.

Killing people not found guilty of capital offenses would make you a murderer, and thus vulnerable to capital punishment yourself.

How do you apply capital punishment to the govt?

You could effectively apply capital punishment to our government at the ballot box. But the more important question here is why do you think everyone in prison deserves to die?

Lol i was just messing with gramps

 

[Andylusion]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

But then I feel like, you are rewarding people for bad behavior. Because I have watched documentaries on people who intentionally get sent to prison. In fact, I had a family member who robbed quick-marts, got caught, went to prison, got training, and came out a Union pipefitter making good money.

Now you can say "See that's proof it works"... but I can't help but think... did we just punish victims to reward criminals? The very people this guy was pointing a gun at, paid the taxes so this guy could get free training, and get a middle class income. And think about it... the people he was pointing the gun at were poor people. Or at least they are low-income people.

So we are taxing the people who had a gun shoved in their face, to pay for the criminal to get a middle class income?
Maybe if we had it setup so that people who got out of prison, and earned $30K a year or more, had to pay back the cost of the education.

But to have crime victim people, pay taxes so law breaking people can get a middle class income, while they stay poor....

There is just something morally wrong about this.

And honestly if we're giving them free education, so they don't commit crime.... then something is wrong. That's like legal extortion. That's like a mafia. You need to pay protection money, and then we won't burn down your house.

We have to pay criminals to keep them from being criminal? Terrible.

If we can't ever trust a criminal to not commit crime out of prison, then he should never leave prison.

It's that simple. And I don't buy this idea that you get out of prison, and it is impossible to find work. You can find work. It may not be great work, or high pay work, but you can find work.

You can get a job a McDonald's. I know people who have done it. You can get promoted at McDonald's. I know people with convictions, that are in management.

There are programs for ex-convicts, with free training from charities, and job placement.

Not saying it's easy, or that it won't be a struggle. But I don't know anyone anywhere, that never had to struggle. And yes, it is more of a struggle for an ex-convict, and it should be. That's why you don't commit crime.

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

But then I feel like, you are rewarding people for bad behavior. Because I have watched documentaries on people who intentionally get sent to prison. In fact, I had a family member who robbed quick-marts, got caught, went to prison, got training, and came out a Union pipefitter making good money.

Now you can say "See that's proof it works"... but I can't help but think... did we just punish victims to reward criminals? The very people this guy was pointing a gun at, paid the taxes so this guy could get free training, and get a middle class income. And think about it... the people he was pointing the gun at were poor people. Or at least they are low-income people.

So we are taxing the people who had a gun shoved in their face, to pay for the criminal to get a middle class income?
Maybe if we had it setup so that people who got out of prison, and earned $30K a year or more, had to pay back the cost of the education.

But to have crime victim people, pay taxes so law breaking people can get a middle class income, while they stay poor....

There is just something morally wrong about this.

And honestly if we're giving them free education, so they don't commit crime.... then something is wrong. That's like legal extortion. That's like a mafia. You need to pay protection money, and then we won't burn down your house.

We have to pay criminals to keep them from being criminal? Terrible.

If we can't ever trust a criminal to not commit crime out of prison, then he should never leave prison.

It's that simple. And I don't buy this idea that you get out of prison, and it is impossible to find work. You can find work. It may not be great work, or high pay work, but you can find work.

You can get a job a McDonald's. I know people who have done it. You can get promoted at McDonald's. I know people with convictions, that are in management.

There are programs for ex-convicts, with free training from charities, and job placement.

Not saying it's easy, or that it won't be a struggle. But I don't know anyone anywhere, that never had to struggle. And yes, it is more of a struggle for an ex-convict, and it should be. That's why you don't commit crime.

Morning,

A few points:

1) The penal system is part of the American system of justice. The portion of my taxes that go to the justice system do a great deal more than pay for the reform of some individual who harmed me. The fundamental purpose of the justice system is to push our society to one of universal mutual respect. This benefits all.
2) Successfully reforming criminals into functional members of our society benefits me in many ways: it reduces the threat of criminal activity aimed at me and mine and, by reducing the cost of enforcement and increasing average income, reduces the cost to me both directly via taxation and through the added cost of merchandise needed to fund secondary processes: security and insurance.
3) I hold all humans to have value. Even were society to receive no tangible benefit from turning someone away from criminal behavior, I would deem it a worthy goal - certainly worth the few pennies of my tax dollar funding such efforts.

1. No the purpose is not to push our society to one of universal mutual respect.

The purpose is to serve justice, period. End of story. And any time you change the purpose of the system to deviate from it's primary purpose, the result is you deny justice. We've seen this with your system over and over.

Besides that, it is ridiculous to think that you can foster mutual respect in prison. This isn't possible. Mutual respect comes from absolute moral values, which have be taught in culture and religious institutions, which all teach there is something greater than "Me, myself, and I".

2. No one is suggesting that reforming criminals into productive citizens doesn't benefit you. What everyone is suggesting is that what you are claiming isn't possible.

This is backed up by the mounds of evidence, showing that recidivism rates in hard line prisons, are not much higher than those in prisons pushing criminal reform.

Human beings are not robots you can reprogram at will. We've been trying your system for decades, and the result is we have some of the highest murder and violent crime rates in the OECD.

3. Yeah, I see value in human life too. That's exactly why I'm fighting against those who de-value human life. A person is murdered every 30 minutes in the US. I'm for stopping that, by killing the criminals. You are for protecting the criminals, giving them so reform program, and releasing them back into society.

Which of us, really cares for the value of human life in our actions, not platitudes?

I would suggest I do. You know why Singapore is the safest city on the planet? Because they kill murderers. They protect human life.

In the 1930-1950, even during the poorest and most desperate time of the depression, we had extremely low murder and crime rates. Even with the moonshiners and organized crime, murder and rape were rare.

But that was under a penal system, where the purpose was to punish criminals.

Now we have your system, and a woman is raped every 2 minutes. Which of us cares about the value of human life?

Again, I would suggest I do, and clearly so. I'd have these rapist executed and buried. You would give them a program, and release them back into society.

And we know this is what you would do, because people saying what you have said are doing that right now as we speak. California has actively engaged in criminal reform and release. Crime is spiking, and people are being harmed. Your system doesn't work.

It's that simple. Your system simply don't work. No evidence that your system has ever worked anywhere.

 

[Andylusion]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

You're cool...LOL! I'm reminded of the scene where Richard Pryor tells Gene Wilder to "Act cool" in Stir Crazy..when Gene asks why.... Richard replies, "so they don't f'k you!"!

Crime and punishment. Tough subject. First, I think you need to separate the mentally ill from the issue. Our prisons serve as ad hoc warehouses for those that society chooses not to spend money on...as regards mental health services. It is no accident that prison populations went up when the funding for mental health went down..especially in those cases where an inpatient setting was required.

Then there is the punitive aspect..that society demands. Make a prison too comfortable..too safe--and it doesn't seem like all that much of a disincentive, now does it?

Is the goal to provide society with its 'pound of flesh'? Or...is the goal to prevent recidivism? Hard time hardens--and deepens the antipathy twixt individual and society. Add the extreme difficulty many ex-convicts deal with--and it would seem to me that the counter-intuitional approach is called for...to give people a sense of self-worth..one must treat them as though they are worth something, right? I would ask the heretical question..is punishment...as a goal---even a real part of the discussion? Broken people thrive on punishment...it reinforces their sense of victim-hood...and allows them to commit continued crimes--and bask in their self-justification.

Better to fix the person..if possible.
Often, it is not. Money..and our sense of outrage..stand in the way.

Then..there is the economic/racial component of the problem. The substance abuse issues. The very real fact that in many areas..prison is an industry..providing both jobs and a sense of superiority to folks who have limited skills of their own. Crime is big business...I have a friend who opened a substance abuse testing company...he is a millionaire from testing that parolee piss. California's largest and most influential union is the Correctional Officers Union..how do you think they would take a proposed massive down-turn in prison population?

I think...that in most prisons..the tools exist for someone to rise up...and reforge themselves. It's the culture that stands in the way. The prison culture..and our popular culture. I've often heard complaining about providing convicts with college...why should they get to make that step up..at our expense? The thought that it might prevent crime really does not register with those sort...they don't care.....they just want more time....and more punishment--not seeing that that's just a way to kick the can...and the thought that a crime might have been uncommitted..is too elusive for them to internalize.

Financially...we spend enough on every inmate to send them to college! The cost of incarceration to our economy and our culture may well be incalculable.

The cost of ending incarceration may even be worse? What of justice?

Reforming inmates is far, far more economical than simply incarcerating them. And justice is far, far better serviced by reforming inmates than allowing recidivism to dominate the process.

Oh please. There is no evidence at all that it is more economical, unless you simply don't deal with crime. Yeah, if you don't have police stopping murderers and rapists, and you just let people get harmed, then it is by far, cheaper to reform them.

The 44% of all people who go through expensive reform programs, end up back in prison within the first year of being released. National institute of justice. 44% in the first year. Over the course of multiple years, it is upwards of 80% or more.

And don't buy the huge cost savings, made up by politicians trying to get votes, and government officials in charge of the penal system, trying to get more of your tax money.

Here's the facts.
A report published by the Correctional Education Association, (notices a conflict of interests? Who stands to benefit from pushing "reforming works" mantra?)

Report is titled "Education reduces crime: Three state recidivism study".
Why am I posting a pro-reform study to prove it doesn't work? Because they can smoother you with BS and flowery words, but the hard data doesn't lie, and they can ignore it, but they can't refuse to print it.

Page 5: showed a 33% recidivism rate for non-participants compared to 29% for participants.

Page 6: Overall, correctional education participants had a re-incarceration rate of 23% com-pared to non-participants who had a re-incarceration rate of 24%.

Page 10: Ohio only had 524 participants for the study. Meaning, an over all difference of recidivism of 1% total over all data.... is 5 people.

How many millions were spent on 524 people, in order so that barely 5 people did not end up in prison by the end of the research? That assumes they didn't end up in prison after the research concluded.

Big savings? "BIG" savings? Where? You think that a reduction of 5 people, offset the millions spent on the program? No, that's ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

If you'd like to prove that claim, go ahead. Provide your evidence.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

But then I feel like, you are rewarding people for bad behavior. Because I have watched documentaries on people who intentionally get sent to prison. In fact, I had a family member who robbed quick-marts, got caught, went to prison, got training, and came out a Union pipefitter making good money.

Now you can say "See that's proof it works"... but I can't help but think... did we just punish victims to reward criminals? The very people this guy was pointing a gun at, paid the taxes so this guy could get free training, and get a middle class income. And think about it... the people he was pointing the gun at were poor people. Or at least they are low-income people.

So we are taxing the people who had a gun shoved in their face, to pay for the criminal to get a middle class income?
Maybe if we had it setup so that people who got out of prison, and earned $30K a year or more, had to pay back the cost of the education.

But to have crime victim people, pay taxes so law breaking people can get a middle class income, while they stay poor....

There is just something morally wrong about this.

And honestly if we're giving them free education, so they don't commit crime.... then something is wrong. That's like legal extortion. That's like a mafia. You need to pay protection money, and then we won't burn down your house.

We have to pay criminals to keep them from being criminal? Terrible.

If we can't ever trust a criminal to not commit crime out of prison, then he should never leave prison.

It's that simple. And I don't buy this idea that you get out of prison, and it is impossible to find work. You can find work. It may not be great work, or high pay work, but you can find work.

You can get a job a McDonald's. I know people who have done it. You can get promoted at McDonald's. I know people with convictions, that are in management.

There are programs for ex-convicts, with free training from charities, and job placement.

Not saying it's easy, or that it won't be a struggle. But I don't know anyone anywhere, that never had to struggle. And yes, it is more of a struggle for an ex-convict, and it should be. That's why you don't commit crime.

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

But then I feel like, you are rewarding people for bad behavior. Because I have watched documentaries on people who intentionally get sent to prison. In fact, I had a family member who robbed quick-marts, got caught, went to prison, got training, and came out a Union pipefitter making good money.

Now you can say "See that's proof it works"... but I can't help but think... did we just punish victims to reward criminals? The very people this guy was pointing a gun at, paid the taxes so this guy could get free training, and get a middle class income. And think about it... the people he was pointing the gun at were poor people. Or at least they are low-income people.

So we are taxing the people who had a gun shoved in their face, to pay for the criminal to get a middle class income?
Maybe if we had it setup so that people who got out of prison, and earned $30K a year or more, had to pay back the cost of the education.

But to have crime victim people, pay taxes so law breaking people can get a middle class income, while they stay poor....

There is just something morally wrong about this.

And honestly if we're giving them free education, so they don't commit crime.... then something is wrong. That's like legal extortion. That's like a mafia. You need to pay protection money, and then we won't burn down your house.

We have to pay criminals to keep them from being criminal? Terrible.

If we can't ever trust a criminal to not commit crime out of prison, then he should never leave prison.

It's that simple. And I don't buy this idea that you get out of prison, and it is impossible to find work. You can find work. It may not be great work, or high pay work, but you can find work.

You can get a job a McDonald's. I know people who have done it. You can get promoted at McDonald's. I know people with convictions, that are in management.

There are programs for ex-convicts, with free training from charities, and job placement.

Not saying it's easy, or that it won't be a struggle. But I don't know anyone anywhere, that never had to struggle. And yes, it is more of a struggle for an ex-convict, and it should be. That's why you don't commit crime.

Morning,

A few points:

1) The penal system is part of the American system of justice. The portion of my taxes that go to the justice system do a great deal more than pay for the reform of some individual who harmed me. The fundamental purpose of the justice system is to push our society to one of universal mutual respect. This benefits all.
2) Successfully reforming criminals into functional members of our society benefits me in many ways: it reduces the threat of criminal activity aimed at me and mine and, by reducing the cost of enforcement and increasing average income, reduces the cost to me both directly via taxation and through the added cost of merchandise needed to fund secondary processes: security and insurance.
3) I hold all humans to have value. Even were society to receive no tangible benefit from turning someone away from criminal behavior, I would deem it a worthy goal - certainly worth the few pennies of my tax dollar funding such efforts.

1. No the purpose is not to push our society to one of universal mutual respect.

The purpose is to serve justice, period. End of story. And any time you change the purpose of the system to deviate from it's primary purpose, the result is you deny justice. We've seen this with your system over and over.

Besides that, it is ridiculous to think that you can foster mutual respect in prison. This isn't possible. Mutual respect comes from absolute moral values, which have be taught in culture and religious institutions, which all teach there is something greater than "Me, myself, and I".

2. No one is suggesting that reforming criminals into productive citizens doesn't benefit you. What everyone is suggesting is that what you are claiming isn't possible.

This is backed up by the mounds of evidence, showing that recidivism rates in hard line prisons, are not much higher than those in prisons pushing criminal reform.

Human beings are not robots you can reprogram at will. We've been trying your system for decades, and the result is we have some of the highest murder and violent crime rates in the OECD.

3. Yeah, I see value in human life too. That's exactly why I'm fighting against those who de-value human life. A person is murdered every 30 minutes in the US. I'm for stopping that, by killing the criminals. You are for protecting the criminals, giving them so reform program, and releasing them back into society.

Which of us, really cares for the value of human life in our actions, not platitudes?

I would suggest I do. You know why Singapore is the safest city on the planet? Because they kill murderers. They protect human life.

In the 1930-1950, even during the poorest and most desperate time of the depression, we had extremely low murder and crime rates. Even with the moonshiners and organized crime, murder and rape were rare.

But that was under a penal system, where the purpose was to punish criminals.

Now we have your system, and a woman is raped every 2 minutes. Which of us cares about the value of human life?

Again, I would suggest I do, and clearly so. I'd have these rapist executed and buried. You would give them a program, and release them back into society.

And we know this is what you would do, because people saying what you have said are doing that right now as we speak. California has actively engaged in criminal reform and release. Crime is spiking, and people are being harmed. Your system doesn't work.

It's that simple. Your system simply don't work. No evidence that your system has ever worked anywhere.

This thread is not about murderer's or rapists or child molesters.

This thread is about average convicts like myself.

It's super easy to point to the extremes and say "see I told you so"
After all we do it EVERY DAY in the politics forum.

I would venture a guess that half or more convicts are not the hardened criminals so many make them out to be in order to justify their feelings on the matter.

In fact I'd go so far as to say that many convicts in jail are no different than the average teen or young adult. Just in the wrong place at the wrong time and either got caught or was made an example out of. Countless deadbeat dads and other similar convictions. I met MANY during my time that had absurd convictions. Some might even say I was unjustfully
sentenced being I was only 16 at the time. I would not make that argument as I'm sure i would be dead today had the system not intervened.
The movies and tv are not an accurate representation of the mess that is our system.

As I stated earlier people reoffend because they are institutionalized, hopeless and uneducated.
Those three factors can easily be influenced as I am living proof. Obviously not everyone can be redeemed but every life deserves a chance.

And just also let me add that almost ALL of the people I knew personally in prison came from completely broken homes, including myself, and they had NO IDEA what compassion was. No clue about empathy. No sense of self worth. Often abused or abandoned like myself. At 7 years old my mom told me to pack my bags for a weekend trip to grandmas. An hour later she dropped me off at a 3 story red brick building full of strangers. That night I was in an emergency foster home full of people i didn't know. From THAT point forward it was a downward spiral. A new family every few months for YEARS. It's a no brainer that I eventually wound up in juvie and ultimately prison.

People LIKE ME are what are prisons are full of. And I would like to think that I have redeemed myself and have something to offer. So why can't they?

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Constitutionally Limited Government Issues | Stand Together

A government that protects equal rights and guards against its tendency to abuse power is essential for human flourishing.

www.charleskochinstitute.org

Home

• Educational Programs
  • Educational Programs
  • Koch Associate Program
  • Poynter-Koch Media and Journalism Fellowship
  • Koch Internship Program
  • Participating Organizations
  • Application Process
  • Frequently Asked Questions
• Issue Areas
  • Issue Areas
  • Criminal Justice Reform
  • Free Speech & Toleration
  • Foreign Policy
  • Stopping Corporate Welfare
  • Technology & Innovation
• About Us
  • About Us
  • Events
  • Our Vision
  • Charles G. Koch
  • Market-Based Management®
• Blog
• News
• Contact
• Careers

Why Prison Reform Matters in America
Jeremiah Mosteller, Criminal Justice Reform Policy Liaison
More on Justice Reform
Share

• facebook
• twitter
• linkedin
• email

The American Criminal Justice System
American prisons house more than 1.5 million individuals, an increase of more than 390 percent since 1978. This growth persisted even in the face of an overarching decline in crime rates since the 1990s and the longest terms of incarceration since we began to collect accurate data. Over 600,000 men and women are released from federal and state prisons each year. Upon release, these individuals will face many practical and social challenges to rejoining their communities, with many of them facing barriers to opportunity due to a lack of education and practical skills. A recent report shows that the current strategies used by our justice system to achieve rehabilitation and increased public safety have been ineffective, with more than 80 percent of those leaving our state prisons being rearrested again in the future. Most Americans agree with the conclusion that can be drawn from these statistics: Something must change if we are to achieve an effective justice system that protects and enhances public safety while respecting human dignity.
What is Prison Reform?
Prison reform is one remedy to the ineffectiveness of our justice system that many states and the federal government have explored. Prison reform is focused on ensuring public safety and restoration for those impacted by crime through the creation of a constructive culture within our prison system. These reforms seek to alter the circumstances of incarceration in ways that allow the system to model and incentivize the attitudes, behaviors, and lifestyles conducive to personal responsibility and self-control. Achieving these goals through prison reform usually falls within two broad categories. First, ensuring access to programs which help individuals gain knowledge, skills, job training, and positive values during their period of incarceration. Second, by revising correctional policies to ensure that minimal barriers exist to maintaining positive community relationships during the period of incarceration. By providing individuals with opportunities to gain productive skills and equipping them to strengthen their positive relationships, we can help them achieve their full potential and transform their lives upon returning to our communities.
Creating a Constructive Culture: Prison
One of the arguments for prison reform has to do with reducing the number of people who are rearrested. Upon leaving prison, those who have been incarcerated face significant barriers to their success upon returning to our communities. It is estimated that in addition to the societal stigma these individuals face, there are more than 48,000 legal barriers that bar them from securing employment, housing, occupational licenses, and many of the foundational things needed to be a productive member of any community. Seventy-four percent of men released from prison are still searching for employment eight months after their release. These many barriers negatively impact public safety and inhibit those with a criminal record from achieving their full potential.

I can personally attest to this. I could not get a job outside of the construction field because of this and I only landed those jobs because of the tax rebate offered to the employers for hiring me. I struggled to get an appartment. Getting ANY kind of credit was out of the question. If not for my young wife and pastor I would have been screwed.

I may have the name wrong but mark Wahlberger couldn't legally run his own restaurant in California because of laws pertaining to ex convicts.

Mark Wahlberg’s Pardon Plea: A Look Back At His Troubling, Violent, and Racist Rap Sheet

The actor-entrepreneur wants to expand his Wahlburgers fast food chain but is running into licensing problems, so he wishes to be pardoned for his past crimes. But they’re not pretty.

www.thedailybeast.com

Does anyone actually think he is a threat to society? Yet the laws on the books continue to punish him after he served his time.

Tim The Tool Man Talor, every righties favorite Hollywood actor is also an ex convict. Should he be barred from pursuing freedom?

Everyone likes to think of convicts as the rapist, murderer or crack head and that stigma couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[justinacolmena]

I cannot relate to what ought to be, only to what is.

The purpose of the prison system is to torture men into compliance with every law passed by Congress, or by the legislature of any state, and every ordinance passed by a city council, borough or municipal assembly, or county board.

That honest men may be thoroughly punished at the pleasure of every whore and pimp of the district as ordered at the discretion of a judge for any reason.

 

[freyasman]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

I think there should be a lot less laws to lock people up for violating.

 

[freyasman]

As a person from the other side of the fence I think they should do hard time for violent crime and property crimes but they should have a chance to get some training in prison for when they get out. The prison I worked at had schools they could attend and jobs they could get inside as well. Also, the leniency the correctional officers are forced to apply to convicts who don't conform is directly rooted in the unwarranted violence done to convicts in the past. I do not condone hurting a convict because they use bad language toward you but wholeheartedly agree with bashing their heads in when they become violent. Killers and child molesters should never be released and most should be killed. The thing that was surprising to me was that after a while there were more convicts I would have chosen to work with than correctional officers. Plus the revolving door should be closed. Stop repeatedly letting violent criminals go free.

Almost every corrections officer I ever met was the kind of person who was going to end up behind bars one way or another.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

As a person from the other side of the fence I think they should do hard time for violent crime and property crimes but they should have a chance to get some training in prison for when they get out. The prison I worked at had schools they could attend and jobs they could get inside as well. Also, the leniency the correctional officers are forced to apply to convicts who don't conform is directly rooted in the unwarranted violence done to convicts in the past. I do not condone hurting a convict because they use bad language toward you but wholeheartedly agree with bashing their heads in when they become violent. Killers and child molesters should never be released and most should be killed. The thing that was surprising to me was that after a while there were more convicts I would have chosen to work with than correctional officers. Plus the revolving door should be closed. Stop repeatedly letting violent criminals go free.

Almost every corrections officer I ever met was the kind of person who was going to end up behind bars one way or another.

A lot of them, yes but not all of them.

 

[Andylusion]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

But then I feel like, you are rewarding people for bad behavior. Because I have watched documentaries on people who intentionally get sent to prison. In fact, I had a family member who robbed quick-marts, got caught, went to prison, got training, and came out a Union pipefitter making good money.

Now you can say "See that's proof it works"... but I can't help but think... did we just punish victims to reward criminals? The very people this guy was pointing a gun at, paid the taxes so this guy could get free training, and get a middle class income. And think about it... the people he was pointing the gun at were poor people. Or at least they are low-income people.

So we are taxing the people who had a gun shoved in their face, to pay for the criminal to get a middle class income?
Maybe if we had it setup so that people who got out of prison, and earned $30K a year or more, had to pay back the cost of the education.

But to have crime victim people, pay taxes so law breaking people can get a middle class income, while they stay poor....

There is just something morally wrong about this.

And honestly if we're giving them free education, so they don't commit crime.... then something is wrong. That's like legal extortion. That's like a mafia. You need to pay protection money, and then we won't burn down your house.

We have to pay criminals to keep them from being criminal? Terrible.

If we can't ever trust a criminal to not commit crime out of prison, then he should never leave prison.

It's that simple. And I don't buy this idea that you get out of prison, and it is impossible to find work. You can find work. It may not be great work, or high pay work, but you can find work.

You can get a job a McDonald's. I know people who have done it. You can get promoted at McDonald's. I know people with convictions, that are in management.

There are programs for ex-convicts, with free training from charities, and job placement.

Not saying it's easy, or that it won't be a struggle. But I don't know anyone anywhere, that never had to struggle. And yes, it is more of a struggle for an ex-convict, and it should be. That's why you don't commit crime.

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

But then I feel like, you are rewarding people for bad behavior. Because I have watched documentaries on people who intentionally get sent to prison. In fact, I had a family member who robbed quick-marts, got caught, went to prison, got training, and came out a Union pipefitter making good money.

Now you can say "See that's proof it works"... but I can't help but think... did we just punish victims to reward criminals? The very people this guy was pointing a gun at, paid the taxes so this guy could get free training, and get a middle class income. And think about it... the people he was pointing the gun at were poor people. Or at least they are low-income people.

So we are taxing the people who had a gun shoved in their face, to pay for the criminal to get a middle class income?
Maybe if we had it setup so that people who got out of prison, and earned $30K a year or more, had to pay back the cost of the education.

But to have crime victim people, pay taxes so law breaking people can get a middle class income, while they stay poor....

There is just something morally wrong about this.

And honestly if we're giving them free education, so they don't commit crime.... then something is wrong. That's like legal extortion. That's like a mafia. You need to pay protection money, and then we won't burn down your house.

We have to pay criminals to keep them from being criminal? Terrible.

If we can't ever trust a criminal to not commit crime out of prison, then he should never leave prison.

It's that simple. And I don't buy this idea that you get out of prison, and it is impossible to find work. You can find work. It may not be great work, or high pay work, but you can find work.

You can get a job a McDonald's. I know people who have done it. You can get promoted at McDonald's. I know people with convictions, that are in management.

There are programs for ex-convicts, with free training from charities, and job placement.

Not saying it's easy, or that it won't be a struggle. But I don't know anyone anywhere, that never had to struggle. And yes, it is more of a struggle for an ex-convict, and it should be. That's why you don't commit crime.

Morning,

A few points:

1) The penal system is part of the American system of justice. The portion of my taxes that go to the justice system do a great deal more than pay for the reform of some individual who harmed me. The fundamental purpose of the justice system is to push our society to one of universal mutual respect. This benefits all.
2) Successfully reforming criminals into functional members of our society benefits me in many ways: it reduces the threat of criminal activity aimed at me and mine and, by reducing the cost of enforcement and increasing average income, reduces the cost to me both directly via taxation and through the added cost of merchandise needed to fund secondary processes: security and insurance.
3) I hold all humans to have value. Even were society to receive no tangible benefit from turning someone away from criminal behavior, I would deem it a worthy goal - certainly worth the few pennies of my tax dollar funding such efforts.

1. No the purpose is not to push our society to one of universal mutual respect.

The purpose is to serve justice, period. End of story. And any time you change the purpose of the system to deviate from it's primary purpose, the result is you deny justice. We've seen this with your system over and over.

Besides that, it is ridiculous to think that you can foster mutual respect in prison. This isn't possible. Mutual respect comes from absolute moral values, which have be taught in culture and religious institutions, which all teach there is something greater than "Me, myself, and I".

2. No one is suggesting that reforming criminals into productive citizens doesn't benefit you. What everyone is suggesting is that what you are claiming isn't possible.

This is backed up by the mounds of evidence, showing that recidivism rates in hard line prisons, are not much higher than those in prisons pushing criminal reform.

Human beings are not robots you can reprogram at will. We've been trying your system for decades, and the result is we have some of the highest murder and violent crime rates in the OECD.

3. Yeah, I see value in human life too. That's exactly why I'm fighting against those who de-value human life. A person is murdered every 30 minutes in the US. I'm for stopping that, by killing the criminals. You are for protecting the criminals, giving them so reform program, and releasing them back into society.

Which of us, really cares for the value of human life in our actions, not platitudes?

I would suggest I do. You know why Singapore is the safest city on the planet? Because they kill murderers. They protect human life.

In the 1930-1950, even during the poorest and most desperate time of the depression, we had extremely low murder and crime rates. Even with the moonshiners and organized crime, murder and rape were rare.

But that was under a penal system, where the purpose was to punish criminals.

Now we have your system, and a woman is raped every 2 minutes. Which of us cares about the value of human life?

Again, I would suggest I do, and clearly so. I'd have these rapist executed and buried. You would give them a program, and release them back into society.

And we know this is what you would do, because people saying what you have said are doing that right now as we speak. California has actively engaged in criminal reform and release. Crime is spiking, and people are being harmed. Your system doesn't work.

It's that simple. Your system simply don't work. No evidence that your system has ever worked anywhere.

This thread is not about murderer's or rapists or child molesters.

This thread is about average convicts like myself.

It's super easy to point to the extremes and say "see I told you so"
After all we do it EVERY DAY in the politics forum.

I would venture a guess that half or more convicts are not the hardened criminals so many make them out to be in order to justify their feelings on the matter.

In fact I'd go so far as to say that many convicts in jail are no different than the average teen or young adult. Just in the wrong place at the wrong time and either got caught or was made an example out of. Countless deadbeat dads and other similar convictions. I met MANY during my time that had absurd convictions. Some might even say I was unjustfully
sentenced being I was only 16 at the time. I would not make that argument as I'm sure i would be dead today had the system not intervened.
The movies and tv are not an accurate representation of the mess that is our system.

As I stated earlier people reoffend because they are institutionalized, hopeless and uneducated.
Those three factors can easily be influenced as I am living proof. Obviously not everyone can be redeemed but every life deserves a chance.

And just also let me add that almost ALL of the people I knew personally in prison came from completely broken homes, including myself, and they had NO IDEA what compassion was. No clue about empathy. No sense of self worth. Often abused or abandoned like myself. At 7 years old my mom told me to pack my bags for a weekend trip to grandmas. An hour later she dropped me off at a 3 story red brick building full of strangers. That night I was in an emergency foster home full of people i didn't know. From THAT point forward it was a downward spiral. A new family every few months for YEARS. It's a no brainer that I eventually wound up in juvie and ultimately prison.

People LIKE ME are what are prisons are full of. And I would like to think that I have redeemed myself and have something to offer. So why can't they?

In fact I'd go so far as to say that many convicts in jail are no different than the average teen or young adult.

My parents go to prisons and teach classes. Now understand, they do this for free, as volunteers through a church, not as part of a reform system.

They are different. They are not the same as an average teenager or young adult. You are wrong on this.

Just in the wrong place at the wrong time and either got caught or was made an example out of.

No, I disagree. I read enough to know, that the vast a majority were not "just at the wrong place", nor "made an example out of".

I haven't met a good guy yet, that was just "in the wrong place".

And just also let me add that almost ALL of the people I knew personally in prison came from completely broken homes, including myself, and they had NO IDEA what compassion was. No clue about empathy. No sense of self worth. Often abused or abandoned like myself. At 7 years old my mom told me to pack my bags for a weekend trip to grandmas. An hour later she dropped me off at a 3 story red brick building full of strangers. That night I was in an emergency foster home full of people i didn't know. From THAT point forward it was a downward spiral. A new family every few months for YEARS. It's a no brainer that I eventually wound up in juvie and ultimately prison.

Now all of that I agree with. Broken families are a cultural destruction, fostered by bad government policy, and the break down of moral values.

And certainly there is a connection between crime and broken families. However, that is not an excuse. Sorry, but it isn't. You can't tell me that someone robbing a quickmart does not know what they are doing is wrong.


6 Minutes in, Larry Elder talks about his father. If there was any man, who had every reason to be a criminal, it was Larry Elder's father. But he didn't. He had morals. He understood right and wrong. Bad family, or no family, wasn't an excuse.

People LIKE ME are what are prisons are full of. And I would like to think that I have redeemed myself and have something to offer. So why can't they?

I don't see it. They come out of prison, twice the hellion they were when they went in.

You might be an exception, not the rule. Fact is.... most come out and continue to commit crimes. Most come out and rape, and murder. The evidence is not on your side.

That doesn't mean you should not be proud of your accomplishment, but don't apply your experience to everyone else in prison. They are not you, and you are not them.

Again, reform simply does not work. It doesn't. Less than 5% difference between those who go into prisons with reform programs, and those prisons that don't. Less than 5%. That's not opinion. That is a statistical fact.

 

[Remodeling Maidiac]

Most come out and rape, and murder.

I was "somewhat" with you till this statement.

It's irresponsible and 100% uninformed jibberish.

 

[EvilCat Breath]

The purpose of prison is to separate, for as long as possible, the predator from his or her prey.

 

[freyasman]

As a person from the other side of the fence I think they should do hard time for violent crime and property crimes but they should have a chance to get some training in prison for when they get out. The prison I worked at had schools they could attend and jobs they could get inside as well. Also, the leniency the correctional officers are forced to apply to convicts who don't conform is directly rooted in the unwarranted violence done to convicts in the past. I do not condone hurting a convict because they use bad language toward you but wholeheartedly agree with bashing their heads in when they become violent. Killers and child molesters should never be released and most should be killed. The thing that was surprising to me was that after a while there were more convicts I would have chosen to work with than correctional officers. Plus the revolving door should be closed. Stop repeatedly letting violent criminals go free.

Almost every corrections officer I ever met was the kind of person who was going to end up behind bars one way or another.

A lot of them, yes but not all of them.

Not all, no.... Rory Miller is one of the exceptions right off the top of my head. I've met a couple others I thought were good people as well, but generally speaking, they're a bunch of gangsters, IMO.

 

[Meathead]

So as you all know I speak from a bit of experience but I see what I consider crazy posts on the subject all the time.

For those that don't know I was sentenced to 5 to 15 at the age of 16. I was all about ME and as a result all the group homes and foster homes couldn't save me. So let's get to the point...

There seem to be two different mindsets to felons and imo BOTH are wrong. Some say "throw away the key's " while others say "no bail"

Well i can speak somewhat to the no bail position. My grandmother bailed me out time after time and all it achieved what to deepen my boldness because i considered myself untouchable. She wasn't a bad woman, she just blindly loved me. Basically she played the role of a bleeding heart liberal with their no bail bullshit.
The flipside to that is the people that think simply locking people up and forgetting about them solves the problem.

Recividisom is a major problem in the prison population. You lock a man up and hold him in a hole for years. Then suddenly he gets his freedom and just like before he went in he has no tools to cope with society. He's kicked into a halfway house for 30 days and then suddenly, after years of being treated like a dog in a kennel, is expected to function in society. No one will hire him except the people who want the tax credits available to them. Those same employers abuse the employees under the threat of "reporting them"

Imo every convict that isn't convicted of violent crimes should be offered basic educational classes and should be REQUIRED to finish a trade school vocation before being eligible for release.
When I was in prison vocational education was an option and not required. I took it to get the fuck out of my cell and that was the only reason. That vocation that i used for a sense of freedom is likely the only reason i am free today.

We have to "arm" convicts with the skills to succeed. Or we can simply lock them up and hope to God they dont become our or our children's neighbors when they get out.



/blog

My first attempt at a not troll debate in this forum.
I read that I'm supposed to make three rules but I have no idea what that means?
No insults
No partisan bs
Tell me I'm cool


Yeah, I like those three rules.....GO!

Simply to protect the public from thugs at the lowest cost possible.

 

[miketx]

As a person from the other side of the fence I think they should do hard time for violent crime and property crimes but they should have a chance to get some training in prison for when they get out. The prison I worked at had schools they could attend and jobs they could get inside as well. Also, the leniency the correctional officers are forced to apply to convicts who don't conform is directly rooted in the unwarranted violence done to convicts in the past. I do not condone hurting a convict because they use bad language toward you but wholeheartedly agree with bashing their heads in when they become violent. Killers and child molesters should never be released and most should be killed. The thing that was surprising to me was that after a while there were more convicts I would have chosen to work with than correctional officers. Plus the revolving door should be closed. Stop repeatedly letting violent criminals go free.

Almost every corrections officer I ever met was the kind of person who was going to end up behind bars one way or another.

You are an imbecile.

 

[freyasman]

As a person from the other side of the fence I think they should do hard time for violent crime and property crimes but they should have a chance to get some training in prison for when they get out. The prison I worked at had schools they could attend and jobs they could get inside as well. Also, the leniency the correctional officers are forced to apply to convicts who don't conform is directly rooted in the unwarranted violence done to convicts in the past. I do not condone hurting a convict because they use bad language toward you but wholeheartedly agree with bashing their heads in when they become violent. Killers and child molesters should never be released and most should be killed. The thing that was surprising to me was that after a while there were more convicts I would have chosen to work with than correctional officers. Plus the revolving door should be closed. Stop repeatedly letting violent criminals go free.

Almost every corrections officer I ever met was the kind of person who was going to end up behind bars one way or another.

You are an imbecile.

WTF, miketx?
Did you think I was attacking you or something?

Since when do you respond like this?

 

[Andylusion]

Most come out and rape, and murder.

I was "somewhat" with you till this statement.

It's irresponsible and 100% uninformed jibberish.

That's fine. You have your opinion, I have mine based on a girl I know raped by a guy released from prison after completing a reform program.

Not changing my opinion, thanks.