What Price Security...?

[Bullypulpit]

For those of you who remain unconvinced as to Alberto Gonzales' willingness to ignore, not only the Constitution, but also international law, I suggest you goto <a href=http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=246536><i><b>"Alberto Gonzales: A Record of Injustice"</b></i></a>. It provides a full disclosure of his past actions with links to the memos(pdf) in question.

Now, let me ask you...Why are you willing to give up the freedoms, paid for by the blood of our forefathers, so easily? Why so eager trade these hard won freedoms for a small measure of illusory security? If it's for fear of further attack, that is the price of living in a free and open society. Unless you are willing to live in a closed and tightly controlled state, you should be careful what you wish for.

 

[dilloduck]

For those of you who remain unconvinced as to Alberto Gonzales' willingness to ignore, not only the Constitution, but also international law, I suggest you goto <a href=http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=246536><i><b>"Alberto Gonzales: A Record of Injustice"</b></i></a>. It provides a full disclosure of his past actions with links to the memos(pdf) in question.

Now, let me ask you...Why are you willing to give up the freedoms, paid for by the blood of our forefathers, so easily? Why so eager trade these hard won freedoms for a small measure of illusory security? If it's for fear of further attack, that is the price of living in a free and open society. Unless you are willing to live in a closed and tightly controlled state, you should be careful what you wish for.

Freedom is just as illusory as security ,Bully.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Freedom is just as illusory as security ,Bully.

The Buddha pointed to everything around himself and stated, "All this is empty.", as in having no permanent or eternal existence. Simply because a thing is impermanent, does not mean that it is not worth protecting while it does last.

 

[CSM]

For those of you who remain unconvinced as to Alberto Gonzales' willingness to ignore, not only the Constitution, but also international law, I suggest you goto <a href=http://www.americanprogress.org/site/pp.asp?c=biJRJ8OVF&b=246536><i><b>"Alberto Gonzales: A Record of Injustice"</b></i></a>. It provides a full disclosure of his past actions with links to the memos(pdf) in question.

Now, let me ask you...Why are you willing to give up the freedoms, paid for by the blood of our forefathers, so easily? Why so eager trade these hard won freedoms for a small measure of illusory security? If it's for fear of further attack, that is the price of living in a free and open society. Unless you are willing to live in a closed and tightly controlled state, you should be careful what you wish for.

You never disappoint, Bully. Once again you are being less than honest and trying to reperesent a pumpkin as being an orange. I read the entire memo and it is clear that it is a reply to a request for legal advice regarding the application of a specific section of Title 18. No where does it direct, authorize or otherwise condone the torture of prisoners.

 

[dilloduck]

The Buddha pointed to everything around himself and stated, "All this is empty.", as in having no permanent or eternal existence. Simply because a thing is impermanent, does not mean that it is not worth protecting while it does last.

odd--that's exactly what my sig says !

a balance between freedom and security is certainly something to shoot for tho. At this point in time, I am simply more concerned about foreign attack than I am about our govt stripping us of all of our freedoms. Ashcroft was vehemently attacked for his policies--how many Americans have been ACTUALLY been violated by them ? Are we just dealing with hypotheticals?

 

[theim]

A Hypothetical Bully:

Abu Muhammed al-Sahadi, is a 23 year-old citizen of the United States. His parents are originally from Qatar.

You are the Attorney General of the USA.

You know the following about Al-Sahadi:

He recently went to the library and checked out 2 books. One is a book which contains information on how to make a bomb (the Anarchist Cookbook, etc.). The other is a book on Popular Tourist Destinations in the USA.

He recently attended an event at his local Mosque and said the following:
"The Jews have no right to their own state! They took that land from the Arab people! They do not deserve a country! They are murderers, and every nation that supports them is a murderous nation that can be punished with Jihad!"

He was recently seen at Six Flags Amusment Park with a camera. He stayed and took pictures for about half an hour. He did not go on any rides.
=======================================================

The Patriot Act now lets you get a warrant to place a wiretap or look at some of his emails. You have 2 choices:

A) Do Nothing. In which case you are unfit for the job of AG. The moment you risk peoples' lives because of your unwillingness to hurt some feelings, you lost your job. If there is a terrorist attack, the blood will be on your hands.

B) Place the wiretaps and look at the E-mail. The most prudent course of action. Does it violate al-Sahadi's rights? Yes. Do you have a damn good reason? Yes. Are you violating his rights with reckless disregard? No.

Has anyone ever had their rights infringed upon by the Patriot Act simply because they are dissenters? No.

 

[dumphauler]

This is the problem - The Abuse of the patriot Act By law enfocement And Other Offical's, They have already have a record of abuse especialy with getting wiretap's. I don't beleave this is the United States I was Taught to beleave in - Home of the free? Free to Make Money? Free to work? It's better than starving to death But alot more than Sept,11th has to go on Before I roll over. People need to get some respect for themself's, How dare the goverment think they can get away with takeing away our freedom???

 

[jimnyc]

This is the problem - The Abuse of the patriot Act By law enfocement And Other Offical's, They have already have a record of abuse especialy with getting wiretap's. I don't beleave this is the United States I was Taught to beleave in - Home of the free? Free to Make Money? Free to work? It's better than starving to death But alot more than Sept,11th has to go on Before I roll over. People need to get some respect for themself's, How dare the goverment think they can get away with takeing away our freedom???

What freedoms have you personally lost?

 

[CSM]

This is the problem - The Abuse of the patriot Act By law enfocement And Other Offical's, They have already have a record of abuse especialy with getting wiretap's. I don't beleave this is the United States I was Taught to beleave in - Home of the free? Free to Make Money? Free to work? It's better than starving to death But alot more than Sept,11th has to go on Before I roll over. People need to get some respect for themself's, How dare the goverment think they can get away with takeing away our freedom???

A lot more than 9/11??? I suspect you mean that since the catastrophic event did not affect you personally, it is diminished in relevance.

 

[theim]

This is the problem - The Abuse of the patriot Act By law enfocement And Other Offical's, They have already have a record of abuse especialy with getting wiretap's. I don't beleave this is the United States I was Taught to beleave in - Home of the free? Free to Make Money? Free to work? It's better than starving to death But alot more than Sept,11th has to go on Before I roll over. People need to get some respect for themself's, How dare the goverment think they can get away with takeing away our freedom???

They are not taking away your freedom. Take off the goddamn tinfoil hat.



Can you name ONE person who has head their rights violated by the Patriot Act?

If America is no longer the land of the free Canada and Mexico are just a stone's throw away.

 

[sagegirl]

odd--that's exactly what my sig says !

a balance between freedom and security is certainly something to shoot for tho. At this point in time, I am simply more concerned about foreign attack than I am about our govt stripping us of all of our freedoms. Ashcroft was vehemently attacked for his policies--how many Americans have been ACTUALLY been violated by them ? Are we just dealing with hypotheticals?

the story goes....when they came for the jews I didnt say anything, and when they came for the catholics I didnt say anything.......and when they came for me, there wasnt anyone left to say anything

What you gonna do when they come for you.........

 

[theim]

the story goes....when they came for the jews I didnt say anything, and when they came for the catholics I didnt say anything.......and when they came for me, there wasnt anyone left to say anything

What you gonna do when they come for you.........

I don't get it. Who have "they" come for as of yet? :huh:

 

[insein]

This is the problem - The Abuse of the patriot Act By law enfocement And Other Offical's, They have already have a record of abuse especialy with getting wiretap's. I don't beleave this is the United States I was Taught to beleave in - Home of the free? Free to Make Money? Free to work? It's better than starving to death But alot more than Sept,11th has to go on Before I roll over. People need to get some respect for themself's, How dare the goverment think they can get away with takeing away our freedom???

First of all, with your european spelling i doubt your american. (beleave, takeing, colour)

Secondly, can you show me evidence of the patriot act being abused? Can you show me where the Patriot Act allows for said abuse to occur?

The Patriot act is worded very carefully so that abuse is next to impossible to be achieved. It has been a vital ally in the war on terror as this incident indicates. Many people who would have skated by on legal technicalities are now investigated and brought to justice before lives are lost.

 

[drac]

I don't get it. Who have "they" come for as of yet? :huh:

This is from the nazi germany. It is a statement by a german who was against nazi policy. (sry i forgot the name). In that case "they" means nazis. This is very well can be applied to today's world as it was in 1940 with different definition of "they" of cause.

Let me know if my post makes it clear

 

[sagegirl]

I don't get it. Who have "they" come for as of yet? :huh:

Well I suppose you could fill in any people or group that has been oppressed by any institution/government.....usually religious persecution but also racial. thus the jews, the catholics, the protestants, the blacks, the japanese (put in detainment camps during WWII,) the list just goes on. The point being that you have to be tolerant of others to be hopeful that you too will be tolerated.