What percentage of Israeli settlers are terrorists?

[Coyote]

Now I will answer your other questions.


How many settlers have conducted terrorism against the Arabs in Areas A or B?

In Area C?

In Israel?

Is it anywhere near the level of attacks on Jews and non Jews, by Arabs of all ages, in all of those places since 1967 ?

I really would like to have a statistic of that since 1967.

Does anyone have a source for it?[/QUOTE]

First #3: There are no settlers in Israel proper are there - that would go against the definition of settlers.

For the other questions - I don't know the breakdown per area nor do I see the relevence of breaking it down. The main source of settler terrorism are the extremist groups - collectively labeled Price Taggers.

Price tag policy - Wikipedia

#4 - how is that relevent? Are you saying that somehow, if one side engages in it more often that justifies the actions or minimalizes what they do? It happens often enough to be considered a problem by Israeli authorities who are no longer looking the other way so much when these terrorist attacks directed at Palestinian civilians occur.

 

[P F Tinmore]

What about all of the terrorist attacks on Palestinians by Israel?

When the Arab leaders sign a Peace Treaty with Israel, and when IDF or civilians continue to attack Arabs for no reason OTHER THAN to defend themselves, THEN you can call what Jews and Israel have been doing since 1920 as terrorism and not an act of DEFENSE against Arab/Muslim aggression against Jews or Israel.

You are NOT making an impression on this last day of the Gregorian Calendar

Israel is only defending its illegal settler colonial project. That is not legal self defense. You can't defend aggression.

Israel is a recognized country. It has been since 1948.

There is nothing illegal about her.

There is nothing illegal about Jews taking back their land in Judea and Samaria, including the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem, which they had been expelled from by the Hashemite Arabs in 1948.

Israel defends its RIGHT to be a country, a Jewish State, and the homeland of the Jewish People/Nation. She defends ALL who live within her and in the Jewish people's ancient land of Judea and Samaria, Jews and non- Jews.


Winning, yet?????

Depends on how they go about doing it doesn't it?

Like any other people they have every right to purchase property and settle there.

They have no other "right" to "take back" anything.

Did Jordan and Egypt have the "right" to take Gaza, Judea, Samaria and the Jewish Quarter?
And to expel all Jews from those areas? In an offensive war?

Israel wins those areas back in a defensive war from the same countries and other Arab ones.


What rights did Egypt and Jordan have which Israel does not?

Good points. But they have nothing to do with Palestine.

 

[Coyote]

What about all of the terrorist attacks on Palestinians by Israel?

When the Arab leaders sign a Peace Treaty with Israel, and when IDF or civilians continue to attack Arabs for no reason OTHER THAN to defend themselves, THEN you can call what Jews and Israel have been doing since 1920 as terrorism and not an act of DEFENSE against Arab/Muslim aggression against Jews or Israel.

You are NOT making an impression on this last day of the Gregorian Calendar

Israel is only defending its illegal settler colonial project. That is not legal self defense. You can't defend aggression.

Israel is a recognized country. It has been since 1948.

There is nothing illegal about her.

There is nothing illegal about Jews taking back their land in Judea and Samaria, including the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem, which they had been expelled from by the Hashemite Arabs in 1948.

Israel defends its RIGHT to be a country, a Jewish State, and the homeland of the Jewish People/Nation. She defends ALL who live within her and in the Jewish people's ancient land of Judea and Samaria, Jews and non- Jews.


Winning, yet?????

Depends on how they go about doing it doesn't it?

Like any other people they have every right to purchase property and settle there.

They have no other "right" to "take back" anything.

Did Jordan and Egypt have the "right" to take Gaza, Judea, Samaria and the Jewish Quarter?
And to expel all Jews from those areas? In an offensive war?

Israel wins those areas back in a defensive war from the same countries and other Arab ones.


What rights did Egypt and Jordan have which Israel does not?

This is 2017.

What inherent right does a people have to forceably take back territory it's ancestors occupied (and, it's questionable whether they even occupied the entire area you reference) thousands of years ago?

The only "right" is the right that any people have to purchase property, live in peace, freedom and security, raise their families according to the standards believe in.

My ancestors are from Wales and Norway and Denmark. I have no right to go there and take anything.

 

[Coyote]

I will answer your questions in two posts. First, on the human shield question.

Except for this case

Israel: Soldiers’ Punishment for Using Boy as ‘Human Shield’ Inadequate

.....do you know of any other?

Is this a rule within the IDF on how to combat the enemy?

Or two Israeli soldiers who did not follow the rules of combat?

Does it follow a pattern of terrorism against Palestinians within the IDF? Or is it an isolated case?

1. Yes - many cases
2. Unknown - would need to research
3. In the one case you reference - quite possible in other cases no.
4. It is not an isolated case per the info below.

There are a couple of things to consider here...the power of memes and their resulting inaccuracies.

1. "Palestinians use human sheilds" is such an oft repeated meme - how true is it? How often does it occur?

2. The opposite meme, represented by the picture posted, that is often posted - how true is it?


Human shield - Wikipedia

I don't want to cut'n'paste the whole thing, it's far too lengthy - but it is states that there were multiple occassions of IDF using human sheilds.

In the First Intifada - "According to Israeli defense officials, the Israel Defense Forces made use of the "human shield" procedure on 1,200 occasions during the Second Intifada (2000-2005), and only on one occasion did a Palestinian civilian get hurt.[17][18]"

Then: "In 2002 the Supreme Court of Israel issued a temporary injunction banning the practice in the wake of the death of a Nidal Abu Mohsen (19) who was shot dead when he was forced by the IDF to knock on the door of his neighbor, Hamas militant Nasser Jarrar, in the West Bank village of Tubas and inform him of the Israeli army's demands that he surrender.[18][25][26]"​

However that was temporary and it continued.

During the 2008-2009 Gaza War, again, accusations of human sheilds being used by Hamas and Israel abounded according to testimony from both Palestinians and IDF soldiers. A subsequent UN investigation found the Hamas guilty of human rights abuses, but no evidence of using human sheilds in these particular instances.

What I conclude is that the Hamas use of human shields seems largely about where they locate their bases of operation - near or in schools and hospitals, and that seems largely an attempt to use those areas as a sheild to prevent being fired upon.

The IDF likewise uses human sheilds, but they use civilians to enter potentially dangerous Palestinian areas and knock on doors etc. Certianly in one case at least, it resulted in the boy being shot to death.

I do not think such activities have been made illegal yet.

Please take the time to do the proper research.

Assumptions do not count. From either side.

I am taking a LOT more time then you are with your one liners.

 

[rylah]

RE: What percentage of Israeli settlers are terrorists?
※→ abi, et al,

I do not believe that Israel has anything like "Extrajudicial Action" and that of "Military Extrajudicial Jurisdiction Act" (legal proceedings and law enforcement action taken outside the jurisdiction or judicial system) like that of the US (example: Osama bin Laden). Many people use that terminology without an understanding of what extrajudicial Action and extraterritorial authority means. But, as our friend "abi" uses it, it is not something bad or despicable. It has clear practical uses. It is covered by law. While the FBI does not conduct foreign intelligence gathering or counterintelligence investigations, it has many other international interests. The US has agents and support professionals in many overseas offices, pursuing terrorist, intelligence, and criminal threats with international dimensions in every part of the world. The US also takes part in all manner of global and regional crime-fighting initiatives, including Interpol and Europol, and Resolution 6 Co-locates operations to combat drug activity. It’s no exaggeration to say that the various US agencies have established 21st Century Operations in the protection of citizens and interest of the United States.

(COMMENT)

I know of no Israeli program for the express purpose of "extrajudicial killings of Palestinians." Are Palestinian killed (RHETORICAL)? Yes, of course. Palestinians have been killed in the venue of both International Armed Conflicts (IAC) and Non-International Armed Conflicts (NIAC); as well as in major foreign intelligence and counterintelligence operation. Are Palestinians killed in the conduct of Article 43 HR essential missions (RHETORICAL)? Hell yes. I supports over the last half century, many Hostile Arab Palestinians have been fatally injured/killed as a result of confrontations tat were intentionally incited, induced and organized for political, anti-Israeli and Jihadist reasons; to include staged media events.

Now, are there times when Israelis have done wrongs? Yes. In a have century, and the tens-of-thousands of Police, Security Services, and military personnel that served and will serve --- operating in an environment that deliberately aggravated by Hostile Arab Palestinian Leader --- to maintain a belligerent and hostile climate and glorifies such action as heroic in the societal view and in a religious context, how could it not be true. The Israelis have, while a much lower level of criminally inclined individuals and many fewer mentally unbalanced psychopaths (than that of the Arab Palestinians), there will be examples of improper action and Major Crimes (including homicides). It is simply unavoidable.

But by far, the number of sociopaths in the overall Arab Palestinian population able to sustain the provide direct support for Jihadism, Belligerent Fedayeen Action, Hostile Insurgency Operations, Radicalized Islamic Behaviors, and Asymmetric Violence is incredible. Yes, the world thumps on Israel fr its crimes directed at the Arab Palestinians, the fact is ⇒ Israel does not hijack commercial planes, Israel does not takeover cruise ships, Israel does not infiltrate the Palestinian and just begin killing people until they themselves are killed. Israel does nt line-up Arab Palestinian men, women and children and gun them down for the sheer pleasure of it. Israel does not engage the suicide bombings of buses restaurants and reception events just to induce fear in the general population. The Arab Palestinians, or for that matter, any organization or state, has a lot of guile to suggest that Israel is guilty of any criminal on the order of the Arab Palestinians.

View attachment 168847
​

I did a search on the GTD for terrorist attacks the twelve-year period 2005-2016 (≈ 4380). I eliminated all but the events confirmed as a terrorist attack from Palestinian Groups (not all but as listed). Now it may not sound like much, but when you consider that Israel is about the size of New Jersey (8,019 sq miles), one confirmed terrorist attack (in that small of an area) every 27 days (round of to once a month), it has quite an impact. If any single state of the US was getting a terrorist attack from any surrounding neighbor, we would wack them into near mass extinction. We would total take control of that neighbor.

If that big-mouth country of Sweden (Conference of European Rabbis requests urgent meeting with Swedish Prime Minister over govt. failure to act against anti-Semitism) were to experience one attack every month, and they knew the source, what would they do?

Most Respectfully,
R

Now it may not sound like much, but when you consider that Israel is about the size of New Jersey (8,019 sq miles), one confirmed terrorist attack (in that small of an area) every 27 days (round of to once a month), it has quite an impact. If any single state of the US was getting a terrorist attack from any surrounding neighbor, we would wack them into near mass extinction. We would total take control of that neighbor.

What about all of the terrorist attacks on Palestinians by Israel?

When the Arab leaders sign a Peace Treaty with Israel, and when IDF or civilians continue to attack Arabs for no reason OTHER THAN to defend themselves, THEN you can call what Jews and Israel have been doing since 1920 as terrorism and not an act of DEFENSE against Arab/Muslim aggression against Jews or Israel.

You are NOT making an impression on this last day of the Gregorian Calendar

Israel is only defending its illegal settler colonial project. That is not legal self defense. You can't defend aggression.

Israel is a recognized country. It has been since 1948.

There is nothing illegal about her.

There is nothing illegal about Jews taking back their land in Judea and Samaria, including the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem, which they had been expelled from by the Hashemite Arabs in 1948.

Israel defends its RIGHT to be a country, a Jewish State, and the homeland of the Jewish People/Nation. She defends ALL who live within her and in the Jewish people's ancient land of Judea and Samaria, Jews and non- Jews.


Winning, yet?????

Israel is a recognized country. It has been since 1948.

Where is it? Do you have a 1948 map of Israel?

Sure no problem, but try to remember it once

 

[P F Tinmore]

Now I will answer your other questions.


How many settlers have conducted terrorism against the Arabs in Areas A or B?

In Area C?

In Israel?

Is it anywhere near the level of attacks on Jews and non Jews, by Arabs of all ages, in all of those places since 1967 ?

I really would like to have a statistic of that since 1967.

Does anyone have a source for it?

First #3: There are no settlers in Israel proper are there - that would go against the definition of settlers.

For the other questions - I don't know the breakdown per area nor do I see the relevence of breaking it down. The main source of settler terrorism are the extremist groups - collectively labeled Price Taggers.

Price tag policy - Wikipedia

#4 - how is that relevent? Are you saying that somehow, if one side engages in it more often that justifies the actions or minimalizes what they do? It happens often enough to be considered a problem by Israeli authorities who are no longer looking the other way so much when these terrorist attacks directed at Palestinian civilians occur.[/QUOTE]
Would stealing or destroying property and crops be considered terrorism?

 

[Coyote]

They have no other "right" to "take back" anything.

Why not?

Because no one has a right to take something from another against their will, unless you believe that might makes right.

Right implies an entitlement...

In my view, the right of Jews (or for that matter Palestinians) to "take back" anything is no different then the "right" of any people to choose to settle somewhere via the legal purchasing of property. It's not a "right" per se. I view sacred sites differently though - a people has a right to access to and protection of their sacred sites.

Rights - Wikipedia
Rights are legal, social, or ethical principles of freedom or entitlement; that is, rights are the fundamental normative rules about what is allowed of people or owed to people, according to some legal system, social convention, or ethical theory.

 

[P F Tinmore]

What about all of the terrorist attacks on Palestinians by Israel?

When the Arab leaders sign a Peace Treaty with Israel, and when IDF or civilians continue to attack Arabs for no reason OTHER THAN to defend themselves, THEN you can call what Jews and Israel have been doing since 1920 as terrorism and not an act of DEFENSE against Arab/Muslim aggression against Jews or Israel.

You are NOT making an impression on this last day of the Gregorian Calendar

Israel is only defending its illegal settler colonial project. That is not legal self defense. You can't defend aggression.

Israel is a recognized country. It has been since 1948.

There is nothing illegal about her.

There is nothing illegal about Jews taking back their land in Judea and Samaria, including the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem, which they had been expelled from by the Hashemite Arabs in 1948.

Israel defends its RIGHT to be a country, a Jewish State, and the homeland of the Jewish People/Nation. She defends ALL who live within her and in the Jewish people's ancient land of Judea and Samaria, Jews and non- Jews.


Winning, yet?????

Israel is a recognized country. It has been since 1948.

Where is it? Do you have a 1948 map of Israel?

Sure no problem, but try to remember it once

That is a map of Palestine and Transjordan.

 

[Coyote]

Would stealing or destroying property and crops be considered terrorism?

It depends on the motivation.

 

[Shusha]

What inherent right does a people have to forceably take back territory it's ancestors occupied (and, it's questionable whether they even occupied the entire area you reference) thousands of years ago?
...
My ancestors are from Wales and Norway and Denmark. I have no right to go there and take anything.

The "right to take back land" which 60s is referring to is the legal right to sovereignty obtained between 1917 and 1948.

And, yes, actually, you probably DO have the right to return to Wales, Norway or Denmark -- depending on their nationality laws. The real question, though, is whether or not Denmark is permitted to attempt to retrieve her sovereign territory lost in a war of aggression committed by a neighboring sovereign.

 

[Shusha]

Would stealing or destroying property and crops be considered terrorism?

No.

 

[Shusha]

Because no one has a right to take something from another against their will, unless you believe that might makes right.

Right implies an entitlement...

In my view, the right of Jews (or for that matter Palestinians) to "take back" anything is no different then the "right" of any people to choose to settle somewhere via the legal purchasing of property. It's not a "right" per se. I view sacred sites differently though - a people has a right to access to and protection of their sacred sites.

Then Israel and the Temple Mount should immediately be returned to the people it belongs to -- the Jewish people. Since no one has a right to take something from another against their will.

 

[rylah]

When the Arab leaders sign a Peace Treaty with Israel, and when IDF or civilians continue to attack Arabs for no reason OTHER THAN to defend themselves, THEN you can call what Jews and Israel have been doing since 1920 as terrorism and not an act of DEFENSE against Arab/Muslim aggression against Jews or Israel.

You are NOT making an impression on this last day of the Gregorian Calendar

Israel is only defending its illegal settler colonial project. That is not legal self defense. You can't defend aggression.

Israel is a recognized country. It has been since 1948.

There is nothing illegal about her.

There is nothing illegal about Jews taking back their land in Judea and Samaria, including the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem, which they had been expelled from by the Hashemite Arabs in 1948.

Israel defends its RIGHT to be a country, a Jewish State, and the homeland of the Jewish People/Nation. She defends ALL who live within her and in the Jewish people's ancient land of Judea and Samaria, Jews and non- Jews.


Winning, yet?????

Israel is a recognized country. It has been since 1948.

Where is it? Do you have a 1948 map of Israel?

Sure no problem, but try to remember it once

That is a map of Palestine and Transjordan.

On the western side is the land of state of Israel, the only functional sovereign govt. at the time.
Jordan is Arab Palestine, Israel is Jewish Palestine.

This is why the official money of Palestine had "Land of Israel' written on it.
Now You know.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Would stealing or destroying property and crops be considered terrorism?

It depends on the motivation.

The hundred year old policy of moving the Palestinians out and moving the settlers in.

 

[Sixties Fan]

Coyote,

Israel is a country with laws.
It follows the rules of war, as any other country.
Those who break from those rules in the military are punished, and there are always those exemptions.

Hamas and PA do not follow any rule of war as known by the West.
What does it mean when it fights a country which DOES follow such rules?

Israel proper has no settlers?
That is not what Hamas, PA and others say as they view ALL Jews in Mandate Palestine as settlers.

Why are Jews returning to their ancient homeland after being expelled in 1920 or 1929 or 1948 being called settlers?
Did they not have the right to those homes and lands where they lived? Did they not buy those homes and much of that land and live on it until expelled do to an offensive war?

Because Israel got that land back and Jews got to again live on their lands, or close to them wherever the Arabs were not living, that is considered illegal settlements but the Arab ones which came to be after 1948 are perfectly legal and not called settlements at all?

Could you explain to me this logic?

To answer your next post.

Jews bought land since the 1850s. Even so, they were attacked or simply expelled from 1920 on.

Do these Jews have a right to fight to get their land and homes back or not?

I have no "one liners".

You assumed that there were many more attacks on Arabs than the ones we posted. Please post them, and consider the circumstances and the punishment, if any, either side received.

 

[Shusha]

Coyote

I think at times in this thread you are confusing the rights of the States of Israel, Jordan and Egypt with the rights of the peoples of Israel and Palestine.

 

[Shusha]

Israel proper has no settlers?
That is not what Hamas, PA and others say as they view ALL Jews in Mandate Palestine as settlers.

Highlighting this as I believe it is a key point.

 

[Sixties Fan]

When the Arab leaders sign a Peace Treaty with Israel, and when IDF or civilians continue to attack Arabs for no reason OTHER THAN to defend themselves, THEN you can call what Jews and Israel have been doing since 1920 as terrorism and not an act of DEFENSE against Arab/Muslim aggression against Jews or Israel.

You are NOT making an impression on this last day of the Gregorian Calendar

Israel is only defending its illegal settler colonial project. That is not legal self defense. You can't defend aggression.

Israel is a recognized country. It has been since 1948.

There is nothing illegal about her.

There is nothing illegal about Jews taking back their land in Judea and Samaria, including the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem, which they had been expelled from by the Hashemite Arabs in 1948.

Israel defends its RIGHT to be a country, a Jewish State, and the homeland of the Jewish People/Nation. She defends ALL who live within her and in the Jewish people's ancient land of Judea and Samaria, Jews and non- Jews.


Winning, yet?????

Depends on how they go about doing it doesn't it?

Like any other people they have every right to purchase property and settle there.

They have no other "right" to "take back" anything.

Did Jordan and Egypt have the "right" to take Gaza, Judea, Samaria and the Jewish Quarter?
And to expel all Jews from those areas? In an offensive war?

Israel wins those areas back in a defensive war from the same countries and other Arab ones.


What rights did Egypt and Jordan have which Israel does not?

This is 2017.

What inherent right does a people have to forceably take back territory it's ancestors occupied (and, it's questionable whether they even occupied the entire area you reference) thousands of years ago?

The only "right" is the right that any people have to purchase property, live in peace, freedom and security, raise their families according to the standards believe in.

My ancestors are from Wales and Norway and Denmark. I have no right to go there and take anything.

Please, no " I am from here or there......" Those countries may not be in danger now, but they could be in future decades, as they were during WWII.

You have no feelings for any one of those countries, that is within you and your choices.

The Jewish people/Nation never stopped feeling a connection to their ancient homeland and dreaming of again being sovereign over it. And it is the same with all indigenous people in the world.
Their connection to their ancient land is their right, and no other people can take it away from them, even if the land is not under their sovereignty anymore.

Jews are not, nor did they with the Mandate for Palestine, demand ALL of their ancestral homeland.

Proof?
The Hashemites were given 78% of the Mandate in 1925.
Did the Jews attack the Hashemites and attempt to take any of that land back, even during or after the 1967 war? No.

Israel gave up the part of Gaza where there were Jewish communities in 2005.

In other words, all Jews and Israel keep doing is giving up on land, hoping that there will be peace with the Arabs who live in the Mandate the way a Peace treaty was achieved with Egypt and Jordan.

Jews went about becoming sovereign over ANY part of their ancient land LEGALLY. They did not invade in 1892 or in the 1920s or later with a military force to take over all of their ancient land. That never happened, and will never happened.

The Arab leaders can find it within themselves to stop the refusal to negotiate and eventually live next to Israel, she will be more than pleased to negotiate with them as she did with Egypt and Jordan who had land belonging to the Mandate and never thought or negotiating in behalf of the Arabs in the Mandate to have their own State. One which was refused twice before 1948 by the Arab League.

 

[rylah]

Israel proper has no settlers?
That is not what Hamas, PA and others say as they view ALL Jews in Mandate Palestine as settlers.

Highlighting this as I believe it is a key point.

Let's just be clear "no settlement" can be so vague as to include Tel-Aviv or even Mishkenot Shaananim outside the walls of Jerusalem (built 20 years before the 1st immigration).

It's a code word they use instead of saying "all of Israel".

 

[P F Tinmore]

Israel proper has no settlers?
That is not what Hamas, PA and others say as they view ALL Jews in Mandate Palestine as settlers.

Highlighting this as I believe it is a key point.

I have been asking people to clarity that for years and the question has been ducked 100% of the time.