What makes arguing with liberals so frustrating #1

[FA_Q2]

Our "prosperity", our "standard of living", has been an illusion.

And there is the jist of it. In order to change we are going to have to accept that the standard of living is going to decrease. Simple as that and there is nothing we can do to avoid that. Unfortunately, Americans have become pampered whiners and do not want to accept that fate.

Or we can just demand an equal and reasonable division of wealth.

The thing is, there is plenty of wealth to provide a good standard of living for everyone. It's just that 1% owns about half of it.

And that's the problem. Right Wingers have made it easier for the 1% to take more, and they've created the exact kind of government dependence they decry.

Yup, and with that 'equal division' that is reached through better wages or confiscatory tax systems the price of all things increases and your standard of living decreases.

You can't get out of it by redistributing wealth, raising wages, taxing or any other way. The idea that I should move out at 18 and have a furnished flat, new car, good paying job and a million other things is asinine and yet how people operate these days. All through magical credit and it has destroyed our perception of a true standard of living.

 

[Foxfyre]

And there is the jist of it. In order to change we are going to have to accept that the standard of living is going to decrease. Simple as that and there is nothing we can do to avoid that. Unfortunately, Americans have become pampered whiners and do not want to accept that fate.

Or we can just demand an equal and reasonable division of wealth.

The thing is, there is plenty of wealth to provide a good standard of living for everyone. It's just that 1% owns about half of it.

And that's the problem. Right Wingers have made it easier for the 1% to take more, and they've created the exact kind of government dependence they decry.

Yup, and with that 'equal division' that is reached through better wages or confiscatory tax systems the price of all things increases and your standard of living decreases.

You can't get out of it by redistributing wealth, raising wages, taxing or any other way. The idea that I should move out at 18 and have a furnished flat, new car, good paying job and a million other things is asinine and yet how people operate these days. All through magical credit and it has destroyed our perception of a true standard of living.

And here-in is one of the reasons that arguing with the Left can be so frustrating. There is this huge disconnect that deveoped as soon as the entitlement mentality started setting in. It was fueled by a rising pool of Marxist thought and has been capitalized on by those in government who use it to keep themselves there and also increase their power, prestige, influence, and personal fortunes. One does not have to be long in Washington to become a millionaire these days which explains why so much money is spent to get elected to one of those jobs. If they play their cards right at all, being a multi-millionaire is almost guaranteed. And a huge part of that depends on increasing the size, scope, reach, and power of big government and infusing the entitlement mentality into as many as possible.

But I digress.

Back to that entitlement mentality, too many on the Left do not look to Washington as the problem. They look increasingly to Washington as the mother lode, the cash cow, the all benevolent source and dispenser of all that is good. Put somebody in office that does not promote that concept and such person will be demonized, dehumanized, belittled, and scorned. Put somebody in office who does promote that concept and such person will be forgiven any sin, any character flaw, any misspoken word, and he will exalted as a king.

And this includes infusion into the national psyche that the 'king' (aka big government) should own everything and it is right and good that the king be a benevolent king taking the wealth away from the greedy and selfish rich and redistributing it to those who have less. And then all, at least those who weren't the very few evil rich, will enjoy a much more Utopian society and live happily ever after.

Conservatives understand that America was the first nation in the history of the world that rejected the concept of any high church power and/or monarchy who assigns the rights the people will have and what property they will be allowed. The Founders assigned the role of government to recognize and secure the rights of the people and then the people would have total freedom to live their lives and govern themselves. The road to prosperity is to earn it, not receive it from a benevolent king or Robin Hood. The goal is for government to secure our rights and then get out of the way so that the people can strive to prosper or seek their own happiness as they have the drive and ability to do so. That great experiment of the Founders was successful beyond even their hopes and expectations.,

Until the entitlement mentality began to sink in.

You cannot enrich the poor by tearing down the rich.
You cannot punish the rich without hurting the pooir more.
You cannot eliminate the wealthy class without starving all.

 

[Bfgrn]

Or we can just demand an equal and reasonable division of wealth.

The thing is, there is plenty of wealth to provide a good standard of living for everyone. It's just that 1% owns about half of it.

And that's the problem. Right Wingers have made it easier for the 1% to take more, and they've created the exact kind of government dependence they decry.

Yup, and with that 'equal division' that is reached through better wages or confiscatory tax systems the price of all things increases and your standard of living decreases.

You can't get out of it by redistributing wealth, raising wages, taxing or any other way. The idea that I should move out at 18 and have a furnished flat, new car, good paying job and a million other things is asinine and yet how people operate these days. All through magical credit and it has destroyed our perception of a true standard of living.

And here-in is one of the reasons that arguing with the Left can be so frustrating. There is this huge disconnect that deveoped as soon as the entitlement mentality started setting in. It was fueled by a rising pool of Marxist thought and has been capitalized on by those in government who use it to keep themselves there and also increase their power, prestige, influence, and personal fortunes. One does not have to be long in Washington to become a millionaire these days which explains why so much money is spent to get elected to one of those jobs. If they play their cards right at all, being a multi-millionaire is almost guaranteed. And a huge part of that depends on increasing the size, scope, reach, and power of big government and infusing the entitlement mentality into as many as possible.

But I digress.

Back to that entitlement mentality, too many on the Left do not look to Washington as the problem. They look increasingly to Washington as the mother lode, the cash cow, the all benevolent source and dispenser of all that is good. Put somebody in office that does not promote that concept and such person will be demonized, dehumanized, belittled, and scorned. Put somebody in office who does promote that concept and such person will be forgiven any sin, any character flaw, any misspoken word, and he will exalted as a king.

And this includes infusion into the national psyche that the 'king' (aka big government) should own everything and it is right and good that the king be a benevolent king taking the wealth away from the greedy and selfish rich and redistributing it to those who have less. And then all, at least those who weren't the very few evil rich, will enjoy a much more Utopian society and live happily ever after.

Conservatives understand that America was the first nation in the history of the world that rejected the concept of any high church power and/or monarchy who assigns the rights the people will have and what property they will be allowed. The Founders assigned the role of government to recognize and secure the rights of the people and then the people would have total freedom to live their lives and govern themselves. The road to prosperity is to earn it, not receive it from a benevolent king or Robin Hood. The goal is for government to secure our rights and then get out of the way so that the people can strive to prosper or seek their own happiness as they have the drive and ability to do so. That great experiment of the Founders was successful beyond even their hopes and expectations.,

Until the entitlement mentality began to sink in.

You cannot enrich the poor by tearing down the rich.
You cannot punish the rich without hurting the pooir more.
You cannot eliminate the wealthy class without starving all.

SO, America should be survival of the fittest. Thank you for verifying my contention that conservatives today support social Darwinism Foxfyre. BTW, it is REALLY ignorant on your part to mention Marx, because Marx, Engel, Lenin and Stalin were HUGE believers in Darwinism.

What we have in America today is a carbon copy of Marxism. It is Marketism, a blind religion with no common sense, compassion, human capital or moderation. And there is absolutely NO consideration of the dire consequences of your sick religion...

I have zero respect for you or your self centered beliefs. You are one of them...a ******* moron who licks the ass of the opulent.

Luke 16:13-15

13 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and mammon (money).”

14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus.

15 He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of man, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valuable in the eyes of man is detestable in God’s sight.

 

[Foxfyre]

Yup, and with that 'equal division' that is reached through better wages or confiscatory tax systems the price of all things increases and your standard of living decreases.

You can't get out of it by redistributing wealth, raising wages, taxing or any other way. The idea that I should move out at 18 and have a furnished flat, new car, good paying job and a million other things is asinine and yet how people operate these days. All through magical credit and it has destroyed our perception of a true standard of living.

And here-in is one of the reasons that arguing with the Left can be so frustrating. There is this huge disconnect that deveoped as soon as the entitlement mentality started setting in. It was fueled by a rising pool of Marxist thought and has been capitalized on by those in government who use it to keep themselves there and also increase their power, prestige, influence, and personal fortunes. One does not have to be long in Washington to become a millionaire these days which explains why so much money is spent to get elected to one of those jobs. If they play their cards right at all, being a multi-millionaire is almost guaranteed. And a huge part of that depends on increasing the size, scope, reach, and power of big government and infusing the entitlement mentality into as many as possible.

But I digress.

Back to that entitlement mentality, too many on the Left do not look to Washington as the problem. They look increasingly to Washington as the mother lode, the cash cow, the all benevolent source and dispenser of all that is good. Put somebody in office that does not promote that concept and such person will be demonized, dehumanized, belittled, and scorned. Put somebody in office who does promote that concept and such person will be forgiven any sin, any character flaw, any misspoken word, and he will exalted as a king.

And this includes infusion into the national psyche that the 'king' (aka big government) should own everything and it is right and good that the king be a benevolent king taking the wealth away from the greedy and selfish rich and redistributing it to those who have less. And then all, at least those who weren't the very few evil rich, will enjoy a much more Utopian society and live happily ever after.

Conservatives understand that America was the first nation in the history of the world that rejected the concept of any high church power and/or monarchy who assigns the rights the people will have and what property they will be allowed. The Founders assigned the role of government to recognize and secure the rights of the people and then the people would have total freedom to live their lives and govern themselves. The road to prosperity is to earn it, not receive it from a benevolent king or Robin Hood. The goal is for government to secure our rights and then get out of the way so that the people can strive to prosper or seek their own happiness as they have the drive and ability to do so. That great experiment of the Founders was successful beyond even their hopes and expectations.,

Until the entitlement mentality began to sink in.

You cannot enrich the poor by tearing down the rich.
You cannot punish the rich without hurting the pooir more.
You cannot eliminate the wealthy class without starving all.

SO, America should be survival of the fittest. Thank you for verifying my contention that conservatives today support social Darwinism Foxfyre. BTW, it is REALLY ignorant on your part to mention Marx, because Marx, Engel, Lenin and Stalin were HUGE believers in Darwinism.

What we have in America today is a carbon copy of Marxism. It is Marketism, a blind religion with no common sense, compassion, human capital or moderation. And there is absolutely NO consideration of the dire consequences of your sick religion...

I have zero respect for you or your self centered beliefs. You are one of them...a ******* moron who licks the ass of the opulent.

Luke 16:13-15

13 “No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and mammon (money).”

14 The Pharisees, who loved money, heard all this and were sneering at Jesus.

15 He said to them, “You are the ones who justify yourselves in the eyes of man, but God knows your hearts. What is highly valuable in the eyes of man is detestable in God’s sight.

The Bible also says do not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn and he who will not work, let him not eat, and those who are poor stewards or squander what they are given should expect nothing but the scorn of others.

America should absolutely be the one place where those who prepare themselves to support themselves are able to do so according to their talent, skills, ability, creativity, and willingness to learn a trade, etc. etc. etc. And where those who put the most effort into it are the ones who most prosper.

And regardless of the inate abilities they are born with, those who stay in school and actually educate themselves, who don't overindulge in controlled substances, who don't get involved in illegal activity, who work at whatever jobs they can get to acquire marketable skills, references, and a work ethic, and who get married before they have kids will almost always prosper. Let's call this group Citizen A.

Perhaps you think those who drop out of school, who over indulge in controlled substances, who get involved in illegal activity, who won't stick it out on low end jobs to acquire a work ethic, marketable skills, references, who have kids but don't get married, and who find it easier just to let others support them should prosper as much? Let's call this group Citizen B.

And perhaps you think because Citizen A prospers, Citizen B is entitled to at least some of what Citizen B earns.

(NOTE: I do not expect you to actually read, understand, and/or respond to this without throwing in a lot of personal insults, red herring, straw men, and/or ad hominem, and will be pleasantly surprised if you do. But there are those posting on this thread who can do that. Unfortunately, I doubt any of them are leftists/liberals but oh well. The topic is what makes arguing with liberals so frustrating.)

 

[M14 Shooter]

What makes arguing with liberals so frustrating?

The fact that the huge majority of them are what Stalin would call Useful idiots.
The remiander? They'd like to be Stalin.

 

[Foxfyre]

What makes arguing with liberals so frustrating?

The fact that the huge majority of them are what Stalin would call Useful idiots.
The remiander? The'd like to be Stalin.

And neither Lenin nor Stalin nor any other of the more powerful tyrannical dictators the world has known would have gotten there had they not promised all those useful idiots that they could have what Citizen A produced.

 

[M14 Shooter]

What makes arguing with liberals so frustrating?

The fact that the huge majority of them are what Stalin would call Useful idiots.
The remiander? The'd like to be Stalin.

And neither Lenin nor Stalin nor any other of the more powerful tyrannical dictators the world has known would have gotten there had they not promised all those useful idiots that they could have what Citizen A produced.

Heh.

Those who live in and contribute to a free society will almost always have more, and better, stuff than those who do not.
Liberalism seeks to change this.

 

[Foxfyre]

What makes arguing with liberals so frustrating?

The fact that the huge majority of them are what Stalin would call Useful idiots.
The remiander? The'd like to be Stalin.

And neither Lenin nor Stalin nor any other of the more powerful tyrannical dictators the world has known would have gotten there had they not promised all those useful idiots that they could have what Citizen A produced.

Heh.

Those who live in and contibute to a free society will almost always have more, and better, stuff than those who do not.
Liberalsim seeks to change this.

Yes, and without them, the 'poor' would have nothing at all. It is by the 'rich man's' ambition, drive, skills, and taking risks that all who want work can have it and it is by the process of earning one's wealth rather than depending on somebody else to provide it that free men can aspire to be wealthy. And it is by the 'rich man's' giving back that we have foundations and scholarship funds and hospital wings and museum exhibits and Little League parks, etc. etc. etc. that likely would not otherwise exist.

Freedom is a wonderful thing. Once the government starts restricting it, things start going haywire in a hurry.

 

[JoeB131]

[
And here-in is one of the reasons that arguing with the Left can be so frustrating. There is this huge disconnect that deveoped as soon as the entitlement mentality started setting in. It was fueled by a rising pool of Marxist thought and has been capitalized on by those in government who use it to keep themselves there and also increase their power, prestige, influence, and personal fortunes. One does not have to be long in Washington to become a millionaire these days which explains why so much money is spent to get elected to one of those jobs. If they play their cards right at all, being a multi-millionaire is almost guaranteed. And a huge part of that depends on increasing the size, scope, reach, and power of big government and infusing the entitlement mentality into as many as possible.

.

I didn't botehr looking at the rest of it, because it's the typical Stockholm Syndrome Conservatard White Trash crap that gee, we just need to let the wealthy finish raping us and then maybe they'll recognize we really love them...

An abuser never gets tired of abusing, no matter how many times you cower down and take it.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

just need to let the wealthy finish raping us and then maybe they'll recognize we really love them...

perfectly stupid, brain dead, and liberal of course!! Steve Jobs was wealthy but was raping us by gifting to us Ipads, Iphones, and, Ipods? Henry Ford was wealthy but raping us by gifting to us the automobile.

Why doesn't the profoundly submoronic liberal start today trying to get rich and then tell us if it is more like rape or total abject servitude.

In liberal marxist la la land it is the poor who got us from the stone age to here.OMG! it is just too stupid to imagine. Now we can understand why millions and millions followed Hitler Stalin and Mao. Thinking is often just not considered viable among human beings. Now the liberal cancer is here too!!

 

[JoeB131]

just need to let the wealthy finish raping us and then maybe they'll recognize we really love them...

perfectly stupid, brain dead, and liberal of course!! Steve Jobs was wealthy but was raping us by gifting to us Ipads, Iphones, and, Ipods? Henry Ford was wealthy but raping us by gifting to us the automobile.

Why doesn't the profoundly submoronic liberal start today trying to get rich and then tell us if it is more like rape or total abject servitude.

In liberal marxist la la land it is the poor who got us from the stone age to here.OMG1 it is just too stupid to imagine. Now we can understand why millions and millions followed Hitler Stalin and Mao. Thinking is often just not considered viable very often among human being. Now the liberal cancer is here too!!

Henry Ford was someone who recognized giving the working man his fair share was a smart idea. He observed, "If my workers can't afford my products, I don't have a business."

Steve Jobs, on the other hand, made his fortune on the backs of poor Chinese peasents who regularly kill themselves because his factories are such awful places to work. He's a Bhuddist, if there's any Karma, maybe he'll work in one in the next life.

Jesus recognized Greed is a Sin. Tax cuts for Rich people is not in the bible. Sorry, man.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

Henry Ford was someone who recognized giving the working man his fair share was a smart idea. He observed, "If my workers can't afford my products, I don't have a business."

too incredibly stupid. You don't get rich if people cant afford your products! Thats the genius of capitalism!!!

Steve Jobs, on the other hand, made his fortune on the backs of poor Chinese peasents who regularly kill themselves because his factories are such awful places to work.

1) a typical stupid stupid liberal Marxist lie. They don't kill themselves at FoxCon more than anywhere else in China.

2) on the back of the poor???? Too stupid!!! They take that jobs freely because they pay incredible wages compared to the liberal communist wages they had been paid that led to en masse starvation. Do you think it is fun to starve to death slowly??

He's a Bhuddist, if there's any Karma, maybe he'll work in one in the next life.

is the idiot liberal offering millions jobs that are good enough to make them quit their current jobs? You think more like a monkey than a human being!. Sorry, don't mean to be rude but what other conclusion is possible?

Jesus recognized Greed is a Sin. Tax cuts for Rich people is not in the bible. Sorry, man.

oh but it is since the rich use their money like Jobs did to lift millions and millions out of slow liberal starvation

 

[Foxfyre]

[
And here-in is one of the reasons that arguing with the Left can be so frustrating. There is this huge disconnect that deveoped as soon as the entitlement mentality started setting in. It was fueled by a rising pool of Marxist thought and has been capitalized on by those in government who use it to keep themselves there and also increase their power, prestige, influence, and personal fortunes. One does not have to be long in Washington to become a millionaire these days which explains why so much money is spent to get elected to one of those jobs. If they play their cards right at all, being a multi-millionaire is almost guaranteed. And a huge part of that depends on increasing the size, scope, reach, and power of big government and infusing the entitlement mentality into as many as possible.

.

I didn't botehr looking at the rest of it, because it's the typical Stockholm Syndrome Conservatard White Trash crap that gee, we just need to let the wealthy finish raping us and then maybe they'll recognize we really love them...

An abuser never gets tired of abusing, no matter how many times you cower down and take it.

It is what I believe to be my informed opinion. But your response to it rather than challenging the concepts in it is to demonize it/me, marginalize it/me, and dismiss it/me. Which is what I have been saying all along. It is frustrating arguing with most liberals because most argue as you just have. Instead of articulating a rationale for why my opinion is flawed, wrong, off track or whatever, you attack and demonize, marginalize, dismiss.

It is frustrating arguing with those who can't or won't articulate a thought but can only use the leftwing assigned talking points to deflect and/or obfusicate.

 

[JoeB131]

It is what I believe to be my informed opinion. But your response to it rather than challenging the concepts in it is to demonize it/me, marginalize it/me, and dismiss it/me. Which is what I have been saying all along. It is frustrating arguing with most liberals because most argue as you just have. Instead of articulating a rationale for why my opinion is flawed, wrong, off track or whatever, you attack and demonize, marginalize, dismiss.

It is frustrating arguing with those who can't or won't articulate a thought but can only use the leftwing assigned talking points to deflect and/or obfusicate.

Yawn.... Keep begging for them scraps like a good doggie, some day you may get them.

I'm bored with this conversation (and I'mnot even a liberal, just a guy who sees what runaway greed has done to my country) because honestly, you guys seem to think that no matter how many times the "Let the greedy have their way" fails epically, you want to give it another go.

I'm an old man. This is the fifth recession I've lived through, and they all start when someone greedy decides to game the system and the rest of us are dumb enough to let them do it.

 

[EdwardBaiamonte]

they all start when someone greedy decides to game the system and the rest of us are dumb enough to let them do it.

if so why be so afraid to give your best single example of this? what does your fear tell you? Have you had Econ 101 at least, or are you just a lazy liberal who wants to pretend you understand even when you've done no work to really understand?

 

[Toro]

they all start when someone greedy decides to game the system and the rest of us are dumb enough to let them do it.

if so why be so afraid to give your best single example of this? what does your fear tell you? Have you had Econ 101 at least, or are you just a lazy liberal who wants to pretend you understand even when you've done no work to really understand?

Joe will tell you investors are parasites.

 

[Dr Grump]

And here-in is one of the reasons that arguing with the Left can be so frustrating. There is this huge disconnect that deveoped as soon as the entitlement mentality started setting in. It was fueled by a rising pool of Marxist thought and has been capitalized on by those in government who use it to keep themselves there and also increase their power, prestige, influence, and personal fortunes. One does not have to be long in Washington to become a millionaire these days which explains why so much money is spent to get elected to one of those jobs. If they play their cards right at all, being a multi-millionaire is almost guaranteed. And a huge part of that depends on increasing the size, scope, reach, and power of big government and infusing the entitlement mentality into as many as possible.
.

This post is so generic and full of shit, I don't know where to start...

 

[JoeB131]

they all start when someone greedy decides to game the system and the rest of us are dumb enough to let them do it.

if so why be so afraid to give your best single example of this? what does your fear tell you? Have you had Econ 101 at least, or are you just a lazy liberal who wants to pretend you understand even when you've done no work to really understand?

How about the whole ******* banking fiasco, meathead? The one where they took toxic loans, bundled them with bad loans, sold them off as derivitives to unsuspecting investors.

 

[Foxfyre]

And here-in is one of the reasons that arguing with the Left can be so frustrating. There is this huge disconnect that deveoped as soon as the entitlement mentality started setting in. It was fueled by a rising pool of Marxist thought and has been capitalized on by those in government who use it to keep themselves there and also increase their power, prestige, influence, and personal fortunes. One does not have to be long in Washington to become a millionaire these days which explains why so much money is spent to get elected to one of those jobs. If they play their cards right at all, being a multi-millionaire is almost guaranteed. And a huge part of that depends on increasing the size, scope, reach, and power of big government and infusing the entitlement mentality into as many as possible.
.

This post is so generic and full of shit, I don't know where to start...

Let's start with the disconnect between left and right and the entitlement mentality. The conservative sees the entitlement mentality as mostly destruction, self perpetuating, and corrupting in both government and for the recipients of the entitlements.


Is it possible for a liberal to articulate a rationale for a principle? Is it possible for the liberal to do that without insulting or demonizing somebody?
What say you?

 

[Dr Grump]

And here-in is one of the reasons that arguing with the Left can be so frustrating. There is this huge disconnect that deveoped as soon as the entitlement mentality started setting in. It was fueled by a rising pool of Marxist thought and has been capitalized on by those in government who use it to keep themselves there and also increase their power, prestige, influence, and personal fortunes. One does not have to be long in Washington to become a millionaire these days which explains why so much money is spent to get elected to one of those jobs. If they play their cards right at all, being a multi-millionaire is almost guaranteed. And a huge part of that depends on increasing the size, scope, reach, and power of big government and infusing the entitlement mentality into as many as possible.
.

This post is so generic and full of shit, I don't know where to start...

Let's start with the disconnect between left and right and the entitlement mentality. The conservative sees the entitlement mentality as mostly destruction, self perpetuating, and corrupting in both government and for the recipients of the entitlements.

What say you?

Name one liberal on this board who has an entitlement mentality. Show me the stats of Dem voters who have an entitlement mentality. Show me the stats that show it is liberals who have an entitlement mentality. There's a start...off you go...