What is your definition of a peoples' right to self-determination?

[abi]

And what, if any, limits are there to this right?

 

[abi]

I think the right ends when it harms others.

 

[JGalt]

It's in the constitution: The right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But you're right: The "pursuit of happiness" doesn't include harming others, or participating in criminal activity.

 

[abi]

It's in the constitution: The right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But you're right: The "pursuit of happiness" doesn't include harming others, or participating in criminal activity.

Interesting, the concept is in international law too, right? And is there another group, condemned as war criminals, that uses the idea of this right to steal and occupy others' land?

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

My definition is: Move to Mecca.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I think the right ends when it harms others.

Indeed, that right is pretty broad, but nobody has the right to violate the rights of others.

Your right to swing your fist stops at the end of my nose.

 

[abi]

Shusha, you begged for this on multiple threads and I am seriously interested in this concept as law, and also, the zionist view vs. the world view.

 

[fncceo]

I think the right ends when it harms others.

I agree ...

 

[Shusha]

I think the right ends when it harms others.

The right to self-determination, of itself, is never harmful to others. It is only the denial of the right of self-determination which is harmful.

 

[abi]

The right to self-determination, of itself, is never harmful to others. It is only the denial of the right of self-determination which is harmful.

Please define it. No circles just this once? Please...

 

[teddyearp]

A people's right to self-determination means getting your collective shit together and stop the infighting. Look at history. The American colonies did not all agree at first to break with England.

Then form a real and cohesive government that wishes to have peace with its neighbors; and then form alliances and truces and treaties.

Look at history. Israel at first had the Palmach, Hagganah, Irgun, etc. all infighting. But they, too, got their collective shit together to form a real government that did all the above.

 

[abi]

A people's right to self-determination means getting your collective shit together and stop the infighting. Look at history. The American colonies did not all agree at first to break with England.

Then form a real and cohesive government that wishes to have peace with its neighbors; and then form alliances and truces and treaties.

Look at history. Israel at first had the Palmach, Hagganah, Irgun, etc. all infighting. But they, too, got their collective shit together to form a real government that did all the above.

They joined forces, they were terrorists and hated by everyone (including the Jews the zionists today still treat like Arabs) when they arrived. A terrorist government for decades, great.

Do you agree that when Shusha uses this term, she equates self-determination with coming from another continent and attacking the local people to obtain their land that they declare it is for a Jewish state?

 

[Shusha]

Self-determination is the inherent, inviolable right of a collective peoples who self-define and generally, but not always, have a distinct culture, to have full agency and sovereignty of a nation in at least part of their historic territory in order to express their unique values and culture.

 

[emilynghiem]

And what, if any, limits are there to this right?

Dear abi by nature of self-determination
people are going to give different answers.

In general people still have to respect the rights of others
equally as their own.

The best approaches I know to ensuring equal self determination
and self government involve education and knowledge of
laws so that people are equally empowered, regardless of affiliation,
and education, training, mentorship and support
in establishing OWNERSHIP of property, businesses,
and community programs so people manage and represent
themselves democratically. They may choose different systems
or affiliations for representing themselves.

But in general any collective organization, entity or institution
should follow the same principles that are used to check
government against abuse of collective authority influence or resources
that otherwise oppress individuals.

So whatever "system" people use to identify and determine
their own beliefs and course of action, it should follow the
same checks and balances, respect equal protections of
the rights and liberties of others, and include some process
of redressing grievances to resolve conflicts and protect the interests
of the people.

 

[abi]

Self-determination is the inherent, inviolable right of a collective peoples who self-define and generally, but not always, have a distinct culture, to have full agency and sovereignty of a nation in at least part of their historic territory in order to express their unique values and culture.

We had a thread that showed what a dangerous concept that is and how nearly the entire world rejects the idea.

From what I have seen in the many places that this right is mentioned in law, it always involved people on their own land. I havn't seen stealing land supported by this right.

 

[abi]

And what, if any, limits are there to this right?

Dear abi by nature of self-determination
people are going to give different answers.

In general people still have to respect the rights of others
equally as their own.

The best approaches I know to ensuring equal self determination
and self government involve education and knowledge of
laws so that people are equally empowered, regardless of affiliation,
and education, training, mentorship and support
in establishing OWNERSHIP of property, businesses,
and community programs so people manage and represent
themselves democratically. They may choose different systems
or affiliations for representing themselves.

But in general any collective organization, entity or institution
should follow the same principles that are used to check
government against abuse of collective authority influence or resources
that otherwise oppress individuals.

So whatever "system" people use to identify and determine
their own beliefs and course of action, it should follow the
same checks and balances, respect equal protections of
the rights and liberties of others, and include some process
of redressing grievances to resolve conflicts and protect the interests
of the people.

I agree; isn't that obvious to all?

 

[Bob Blaylock]

It's in the constitution: The right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

No, it's not.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

And what, if any, limits are there to this right?

The Palestinians have had NUMEROUS opportunities to form a Government starting in 1948 they CHOOSE not to do so. I wish they would form a Government because then the first time the assholes shoot into Israel then Israel can declare war INVADE, depose the Government and occupy them until they agree to stop and all with the UN's approval.

 

[Shusha]

Self-determination is the inherent, inviolable right of a collective peoples who self-define and generally, but not always, have a distinct culture, to have full agency and sovereignty of a nation in at least part of their historic territory in order to express their unique values and culture.

We had a thread that showed what a dangerous concept that is and how nearly the entire world rejects the idea.

From what I have seen in the many places that this right is mentioned in law, it always involved people on their own land. I havn't seen stealing land supported by this right.

It is not the slightest bit a dangerous concept and the world does not in the least reject the idea that self-determination normally takes place on a peoples historical territory. It DOES involve people on their own land. That being defined as the land upon which they originated and not upon the current residents of that land. That is exactly why the UN defines indigenous peoples on PRE-CONQUEST and PRE-INVASION cultures.

 

[abi]

Shusha, did you see Emily's post?