what is the lefts plan to end the war in Ukraine ?

[TimFitz]

I don't know about the "left".

I do know the plan in Europe at the moment is to help Ukraine outlast Russia, by resisting and driving up the cost.

See, for all these Trump/Russia sycophants claims of futility of resisting and cries for peace by simply giving Putin a victory there are more than a couple facts that show the dishonesty of the give Putin what he wants argument and necessity of the resist option.

Fact one. Russia's GDP is the size of the Benelux countries. Not the EU's GDP but the combined GDP of 3 of it's smaller countries. At the moment Russia is funding its efforts by letting inflation run rampant, AND spending a CONSIDERABLE amount of it's GDP on its military. That is not sustainable in the long term.

Fact two. There is NO guarantee that Putin will honor ANY peace deal. In fact considering this is his third (attempted) landgrab in a decade why does anybody think that Putin is trustworthy?

Fact three. Ukraine got security guarantees from among others Russia and the US, when they gave up their nuclear weapons. How is peace served by making clear that NOBODY will stand up for small nations when they get attacked even when they were promised security? It's not all that hard for a developed nation to make nuclear weapons. If I was let's say... Latvia a nuke sound like a great idea by now.

Fact four. Speaking of the Balic States. Not only are they in the crosshairs of Putin, not only are they a member of NATO. By making it clear that America will NOT honor any deals previous made and that Trump is more hostile to Ukraine and its European allies than he is to Russia. If I was Putin and I'd fancy another gamble, those countries seem like a good next target.



Fact five. History is full of smaller countries resisting bigger one until the give up. Vietnam, Afghanistan 2 times no less, to name a few recent examples. Against countries that have more power than Russia has today.

He has already said his objective are to divide Eastern Europe from the west and NATO and re establish the Iron Curtain.

If Ukraine falls, as is Trump’s open desire, Putin will have the way cleared to pursue that dream.

In the short run, Trump has consistantly attacked the global world order established by Roosevelt and Churchill in 1941.

This is, of course a Russian foreign policy goal since 1949.

And Trump has hard to deliver this victory to Moscow.

 

[pknopp]

Which post number?

The one you only partially quoted.

 

[Mac-7]

Maybe they can simply jump from one to another like Trump?

At least trump is doing something even if you think its wrong

Sooner or later the left will have to face reality and end the war

 

[DonGlock26]

He has already said his objective are to divide Eastern Europe from the west and NATO and re establish the Iron Curtain.

If Ukraine falls, as is Trump’s open desire, Putin will have the way cleared to pursue that dream.

In the short run, Trump has consistantly attacked the global world order established by Roosevelt and Churchill in 1941.

This is, of course a Russian foreign policy goal since 1949.

And Trump has hard to deliver this victory to Moscow.

Tim, what is your plan to force the Russians out of the Ukraine?

 

[forkup]

I'm not so sure about the security guarantees.


"Another key point was that U.S. State Department lawyers made a distinction between "security guarantee" and "security assurance", referring to the security guarantees that were desired by Ukraine in exchange for non-proliferation. "Security guarantee" would have implied the use of military force in assisting its non-nuclear parties attacked by an aggressor (such as Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty for NATO members) while "security assurance" would simply specify the non-violation of these parties' territorial integrity. In the end, a statement was read into the negotiation record that the (according to the U.S. lawyers) lesser sense of the English word "assurance" would be the sole implied translation for all appearances of both terms in all three language versions of the statement.[19]"

Budapest Memorandum - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

That's just nitpicking. Ukraine gave up its nukes in the understanding that the US would defend their territorial integrity. The US is simply reneging. That isn't good for the US overall security.

You asked the question what the plan was. I gave it. Can you counter anything I just said?

 

[DonGlock26]

The one you only partially quoted.

What is the post number, so we can all take a look at your plan?

 

[Mac-7]

Tim, what is your plan to force the Russians out of the Ukraine?

He will never answer

 

[Seymour Flops]

We have been in a permanent state of war for the last quarter century. (Yes one could argue even longer than that)

And no plan to push Russia out of Ukraine, to stick to the point.

 

[pknopp]

At least trump is doing something even if you think its wrong

Sooner or later the left will have to face reality and end the war

I have no idea if it's wrong as he goes from position to position.

 

[DonGlock26]

That's just nitpicking. Ukraine gave up its nukes in the understanding that the US would defend their territorial integrity. The US is simply reneging. That isn't good for the US overall security.

You asked the question what the plan was. I gave it. Can you counter anything I just said?

Can you show us the part of the agreement where the US promises to defend the territorial integrity of Ukraine?
I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I just don't think we promised that.

 

[pknopp]

And no plan to push Russia out of Ukraine, to stick to the point.

Not our place to do that.

 

[Mac-7]

The US is simply reneging.

Thats not completely untrue

it sucks, but sometimes life can be unfair

 

[TimFitz]

There was never any intention of "winning" Ukraine. That was proven by the way the weak-assed Biden/Harris administration only gave Ukraine enough support to keep our munitions industry profiting while the war continued. Biden/Harris never had a plan to "win" the war in Ukraine, nor did they have any kind of a plan to reduce the amount of money we were spending on the war.

So if all your hope of winning in 2028 is based on "eggs" and "Ukraine", you're in for another bitter disappointment.

What a dishonest post! (No more dishonest than Trump’s bellowing Friday)

Trump did everything he could to hamstring every effort to aid Ukraine.

As President he spent nearly a year holding up authorized aid to Ukraine. He followed that up with a ham fisted attempt to blackmail Ukraine, which blew up in his face.

When Biden became President, trump used has ability to bully McCarthy and the GOP Congress to sit on Ukranian aid for nearly another year.

Biden did everything in his power to support Ukraine.

Trump did everything he could to block it.

And then he had the temerity to brag about how “ahe” gave Ukraine aid, thst he himself opposed and tried to undermine.

 

[Seymour Flops]

Not our place to do that.

So you lied when you said you had already answered.

Your plan is to NOT push Russia out of Ukraine.

At least that plan is workable.

 

[Edgetho]

As a former US Army cavalry scout, I have to laugh at that friendly dig.

Seriously, the USMC getting rid of all MBTs is stupid. The USMC & US Army used tanks to break the back of Japanese resistance in the Pacific.

The only reason the USMC exists is to be the Navy's Infantry. Hence, their name.

If an Army General and a Navy Admiral are taking part in an Amphibious landing, and the Navy has no Infantry, the Army is in charge. The Army is the Senior Service.

But Army Generals trying to tell the Navy what to do doesn't work very well most of the time. There have been multiple examples in multiple Wars. Catastrophic examples

So we gave the Navy their own Infantry to keep the Army from sinking Navy Ships. bummer. We call them 'Marines' and their job description comes down to, "Hey Diddle-Diddle, Charge Up The Middle". And they're some of the best, most fearless light infantry in the world.

But that's what they are -- "Light" Infantry. They get a Beachhead, and the Army comes in and takes over. That's the way it's supposed to work. And that's what the Pentagon wants to get back to.

It can get complicated but I agree with it. No knock on the Marines. They seize and hold the Beach until relieved by the Army.

If we could just keep them from eating the crayons........

 

[otto105]

We hear a lot of saber-rattling about Putin from the Left. The Left appears to oppose Trump's attempt to broker a peace agreement in Ukraine.
So, what's the Left's plan to defeat Putin?

It has been and still is to drive Russia from Ukrainian territory and support democracy in the country.

The maga plan is to get fucked by pootin.

 

[pknopp]

So you lied when you said you had already answered.

I said the same thing twice. Reading comprehension must not be your strong suit.

 

[TimFitz]

Not our place to do that.

It is if you want to lay claim to “leader of the free world”.

In fact, it is exactly our place to lead the western alliance in crises like this.

But if you think retreating into isolationism and inconsequence…….

 

[forkup]

Can you show us the part of the agreement where the US promises to defend the territorial integrity of Ukraine?
I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I just don't think we gave promised that.

No you aren't trying to be a smart ass. You are trying to pose a red herring, so you can avoid addressing almost my entire post. By trying to make me focus on a technicality instead of how Ukraine understood the terms of them giving up their nukes. So address my entire post and tell me how I'm wrong please.

 

[1srelluc]

Must be another one of your made up childish labels.

Trump is the one who is doing all the chest thumping.

And he doesn’t have any cards.

WTF?

Sigh, you are everything we have come to expect from years of leftist dem indoctrination.