What if Bush was Right about the Iraq War?

-Cp

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2004
2,911
362
48
Earth
A great read for all you libs out there:

http://www.suntimes.com/output/brown/cst-nws-brown01.html


What if Bush has been right about Iraq all along?

February 1, 2005

BY MARK BROWN SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST

Maybe you're like me and have opposed the Iraq war since before the shooting started -- not to the point of joining any peace protests, but at least letting people know where you stood.



You didn't change your mind when our troops swept quickly into Baghdad or when you saw the rabble that celebrated the toppling of the Saddam Hussein statue, figuring that little had been accomplished and that the tough job still lay ahead.

Despite your misgivings, you didn't demand the troops be brought home immediately afterward, believing the United States must at least try to finish what it started to avoid even greater bloodshed. And while you cheered Saddam's capture, you couldn't help but thinking I-told-you-so in the months that followed as the violence continued to spread and the death toll mounted.

By now, you might have even voted against George Bush -- a second time -- to register your disapproval.

But after watching Sunday's election in Iraq and seeing the first clear sign that freedom really may mean something to the Iraqi people, you have to be asking yourself: What if it turns out Bush was right, and we were wrong?

It's hard to swallow, isn't it?


Americans cross own barrier

If you fit the previously stated profile, I know you're fighting the idea, because I am, too. And if you were with the president from the start, I've already got your blood boiling.

For those who've been in the same boat with me, we don't need to concede the point just yet. There's a long way to go. But I think we have to face the possibility.

I won't say that it had never occurred to me previously, but it's never gone through my mind as strongly as when I watched the television coverage from Iraq that showed long lines of people risking their lives by turning out to vote, honest looks of joy on so many of their faces.

Some CNN guest expert was opining Monday that the Iraqi people crossed a psychological barrier by voting and getting a taste of free choice (setting aside the argument that they only did so under orders from their religious leaders).

I think it's possible that some of the American people will have crossed a psychological barrier as well.


Deciding democracy's worth

On the other side of that barrier is a concept some of us have had a hard time swallowing:

Maybe the United States really can establish a peaceable democratic government in Iraq, and if so, that would be worth something.

Would it be worth all the money we've spent? Certainly.

Would it be worth all the lives that have been lost? That's the more difficult question, and while I reserve judgment on that score until such a day arrives, it seems probable that history would answer yes to that as well.

I don't want to get carried away in the moment.

Going to war still sent so many terrible messages to the world.

Most of the obstacles to success in Iraq are all still there, the ones that have always led me to believe that we would eventually be forced to leave the country with our tail tucked between our legs. (I've maintained from the start that if you were impressed by the demonstrations in the streets of Baghdad when we arrived, wait until you see how they celebrate our departure, no matter the circumstances.)

In and of itself, the voting did nothing to end the violence. The forces trying to regain the power they have lost -- and the outside elements supporting them -- will be no less determined to disrupt our efforts and to drive us out.

Somebody still has to find a way to bring the Sunnis into the political process before the next round of elections at year's end. The Iraqi government still must develop the capacity to protect its people.

And there seems every possibility that this could yet end in civil war the day we leave or with Iraq becoming an Islamic state every bit as hostile to our national interests as was Saddam.


Penance could be required

But on Sunday, we caught a glimpse of the flip side. We could finally see signs that a majority of the Iraqi people perceive something to be gained from this brave new world we are forcing on them.

Instead of making the elections a further expression of "Yankee Go Home," their participation gave us hope that all those soldiers haven't died in vain.

Obviously, I'm still curious to see if Bush is willing to allow the Iraqis to install a government that is free to kick us out or to oppose our other foreign policy efforts in the region.

So is the rest of the world.

For now, though, I think we have to cut the president some slack about a timetable for his exit strategy.

If it turns out Bush was right all along, this is going to require some serious penance.

Maybe I'd have to vote Republican in 2008.
 
My only problem with the article is why is the writer assume that the Iraqis are going to oppose our own desires for the region? They are likely to be our biggest supporters because they will want their brothers in the neighboring nations to have the same right they do.
 
I'm confused-- the premise that "George Bush may have been right that invading Iraq was a good thing" is muddled. I think invading countries with repressive regimes to free their peoples is always a good thing. I'd bet the majority of Americans would agree... maybe this guy didn't.

I didn't think that invading Iraq because it may have had WMDs was a good idea-- there were othering terrorists nations that we KNEW had WMDs. In that respect, no, president Bush was not right to invade Iraq, it was a mad thing because we lost billions and billionds and thousands of lives.

Pre-emptive war = sometimes good, sometimes bad.

Liberating nations = always good.

So, despite the fact that the outcome of invasion is, in my opinion, "good", we didn't go to war for those reasons.

Like I posted elsewhere, if Iraq had been a free nation that harbored terrorists and had WMDs and postured aggresively towards the United States, we still would have invaded (i contend);

If Iraq had been a repressed nation that we knew had no WMDs (like so many other countries we're not invading), we would not have invaded.

Ergo, George Bush went to war to secure his people, not to free Iraqis, which become a favorable byproduct of "pre-emptive war". Ergo, George Bush was "wrong", but good things came of it despite this.
 
nakedemperor said:
Ergo, George Bush went to war to secure his people, not to free Iraqis, which become a favorable byproduct of "pre-emptive war". Ergo, George Bush was "wrong", but good things came of it despite this.
Bush was "wrong" to go to war to secure his people???? I know you dont mean that the way it sounds....
 
CSM said:
Bush was "wrong" to go to war to secure his people???? I know you dont mean that the way it sounds....

In this particular instance-- Iraq had no WMDs and no reconstituted nuclear program, and no working relationship with al Qaeda (even if al Qaeda operatives existed inside the country.

We don't need to argue whether these are true-- I know the arguments "for" WMDs and a collaborative relationship with al Qaeda; I'm saying under this premise pre-emptive war was wrong.
 
nakedemperor said:
In this particular instance-- Iraq had no WMDs and no reconstituted nuclear program, and no working relationship with al Qaeda (even if al Qaeda operatives existed inside the country.

We don't need to argue whether these are true-- I know the arguments "for" WMDs and a collaborative relationship with al Qaeda; I'm saying under this premise pre-emptive war was wrong.

Nope, not if Bush truly believed that Iraq had WMD and they had reconstituted their nuclear weapon program and there were ties to Al Qaeda. I would far prefer that our government err on the side of our nation's safety than the other way around.

While hindsight gives you an advantage here, the decision was made in a context that did not have that advantage.

The argument as to whether the intelligence available at the time was true or not is a whole different discussion.
 
CSM said:
Nope, not if Bush truly believed that Iraq had WMD and they had reconstituted their nuclear weapon program and there were ties to Al Qaeda. I would far prefer that our government err on the side of our nation's safety than the other way around.

While hindsight gives you an advantage here, the decision was made in a context that did not have that advantage.

The argument as to whether the intelligence available at the time was true or not is a whole different discussion.

Or if information was datamined.

I would prefer the government err on the side of the safety of people everywhere rather than the *potential* (very unlikely) harm to Americans.

Or if you believe that sacrificing 10s of thousands or foreigners (free or otherwise) is worth (possibly) defending an equal number of Americans. I do not think it is.
 
nakedemperor said:
Or if information was datamined.

I would prefer the government err on the side of the safety of people everywhere rather than the *potential* (very unlikely) harm to Americans.

Or if you believe that sacrificing 10s of thousands or foreigners (free or otherwise) is worth (possibly) defending an equal number of Americans. I do not think it is.
I do not believe one drop of an American soldier's blood is worth any number of those foriegners....but then I am not in charge....
 
CSM said:
I do not believe one drop of an American soldier's blood is worth any number of those foriegners....but then I am not in charge....

Thank goodess you're not.
 
nakedemperor said:
Pre-emptive war = sometimes good, sometimes bad.

Liberating nations = always good..


But...on who's dime? Do we go about freeing all the repressed nations while our own economic situation and spiraling national debt and plummeting dollar are causing our own serious problems?


Remember France's king Louis the 16th? he bankrolled the American revolution - his assistance freed us from the tyranny of British rule. But "liberating us" bankrupted his France, and that was one of the significant factors that led to the French revolution where he had his head removed by guillotine.



A
 
CivilLiberty said:
But...on who's dime? Do we go about freeing all the repressed nations while our own economic situation and spiraling national debt and plummeting dollar are causing our own serious problems?


Remember France's king Louis the 16th? he bankrolled the American revolution - his assistance freed us from the tyranny of British rule. But "liberating us" bankrupted his France, and that was one of the significant factors that led to the French revolution where he had his head removed by guillotine.



A

You've uncovered why I remain highly critical of the Iraq experiment despite its "unequivocal success".
 
So, as always, it boils down to money with you leftists.

I've maintained all along that your opposition to the war was motivated purely and simply by your crass self interest. The thought that we are spending the nation's wealth on things other than your precious social experiments and entitlement programs must make the bile rise in your throats.

CL - you need to study your french history a good bit more. The financial assistance Louis provided for the American revolution was but a tiny fraction of the exhorbitant budget of his reign. Most of his expenditures were for ever more elaborate castles. Much like today's libs, Louis spent money like a drunken sailor on his favorite social programs. Except in his case, HE was his own favorite social program.
 
Merlin1047 said:
So, as always, it boils down to money with you leftists..

I'm not a leftist I'm a conservative - and hey, wasn't it the Republicans who have always accused the Democrats of spending money?

Merlin1047 said:
I've maintained all along that your opposition to the war was motivated purely and simply by your crass self interest. The thought that we are spending the nation's wealth on things other than your precious social experiments and entitlement programs must make the bile rise in your throats.

I don't support BS social programs, and I've made that clear in more than one thread here. I question if the Iraq escapade is appropriate foreign policy for a number of reasons, and yes, the high cost is part of it. If I felt that the United States' benefits from Iraq would justify the cost, that would be one thing. I don't see the benefit, at least not yet. We'll know in five to ten years.

Merlin1047 said:
CL - you need to study your french history a good bit more. The financial assistance Louis provided for the American revolution was but a tiny fraction of the exhorbitant budget of his reign. Most of his expenditures were for ever more elaborate castles. Much like today's libs, Louis spent money like a drunken sailor on his favorite social programs. Except in his case, HE was his own favorite social program.

No doubt that he was a most wasteful example of a monarch, and rightly removed from power. However, the French revolution is indeed something I am quite familiar with, it being a topic that I have researched to a degree.

See:

Percentage of the French government's 1788 expenditures that went to support the court at Versailles: 6%

Percentage that went to finance war debt resulting from France's support of the colonies in the American Revolution: 50%



Ultimately, we can thank the fact that Louis 16 hated England, which had much to do with his support of our cause.

Will Iraq bankrupt America? No, I don't think so, and that's not what I intended to imply. Will Iraq emerge as the Little America of the middle east? One hopes. But it is no certainty.



Regards,


Andy
 
CivilLiberty said:
I don't see the benefit, at least not yet. We'll know in five to ten years.

Exactly, but the lefties want instant gratification/results. At the beginning of WWII, we didn't know the outcome and we didn't know the cost and we didn't know what the long term results of our involvement would be but we took a chance. Bush's plan never was a one, two or three year plan. He said from day 1 that this war would last years and years. However, lefties want everything to be peachy keen now and they are not willing to sacrifice today for a better tomorrow.
 
CivilLiberty said:
Um, no he didn't.


A

"Um, yes he did".........He didn't specifically state how many years, but he said that we, Americans would have to be patient with this struggle, because it would take time. Basically saying that it was a protracted fight......

We Americans do suffer from the malady of "instant gratification". The Gulf War.......victory, gave us a false sense that we would finish major battles in days rather than months or years. Actually, we did roll through Iraq in a matter of days, and are in a protracted battle of another nature. The latter not being wrapped up in days, as the "fast food" generation would like it.

Life really is a waiting game.........in fact waiting or patience is a character builder........but that's a whole other subject that probably would end up in the "religion" topics of this forum.

Most pessimism seems to be rooted, not in critical thinking, but comes from a lack of patience, and a need for quick gratification or answers.

During Clinton's presidency, millionaires were being created in matters of days through ".com" stocks that flourished and then died in days and months......

The late yuppie, and Gen X folks, were behaviourally programmed to expect instant results, and when the boom went "South", and a few months later 9/11 put the finishing touches on this "paper" economy of dreams. Pessimism began to reign. Our country(U.S) has raised a crop of whiners that still haven't left toddlerhood, but reside in adult bodies. They could likened to plants with a root system that has never gone deep for the permanent water supply, but have sadly allowed their roots to chase out and live on less constitent surface water. Shallow roots don't hold up when weather gets tough. Shallow rooted trees easily fall in a strong wind......Shallow rooted trees fall easily when the surface soil gets saturated......
Strong, enduring trees, stand through all kinds of weather, because their roots go deep. Their branches get snapped in storms, but their roots and trunk stay solid. Inevitably, they become stronger with every storm. A little metaphor folks. :eek:

GWB had a war to fight..........and it wasn't conventional......and it wasn't going to bring daily newspaper headlines of victories on the battle field. GWB was waging a war with a group or groups, that had absolutely no understanding of the inherent human desire of freedom and liberty that resides dormant in the human beings of the third world. The recent 60% Iraqi election turn-out has dismayed of the lefties, and the radical Muslim world. The turn-out has proven a fundamental point that GWB has been saying for the last 4 years, "All people have a basic desire to be free from enslavement, and tyranny.

When U.S. troops finally leave Iraq, we may not have the ally that many Americans hoped for, but we will hopefully have the first Middle East democracy of Muslim flavor in history. They(Iraqis) will be free to do what they want in the family of nations, but it will be by concensus.

The unfolding of Iraqi democracy will and is having a profound impact on it's neighbors. Iran, has a new, Post Koumini generation that doesn't want to live under the Iman's yoke, but desires Western style freedom. Many anti-GWB pundits say that Iran is next to be invaded, and some ways they may be prophetic, yet ignorant of how that invasion will happen. That invasion will be through media accounts of Iraqi democracy in action. Iraqi self-determination flourishing where once mass murder of political dissidents was the norm. Iran's populous will become envious, and restless to have a taste of this liberty, as well as Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and other countries with non-benevolent governments. Even Al-Jazerra TV will not be able to stem the flow with their propaganda.

Here's the corker...........for you lefties......and quick gratification junkies.........it will take time........and there will be set-backs.......There will be two steps forward, and one step back.........but all along the hunger for human liberty will be going forward.

If you can't stand GWB as a person, then try to separate him from the good that's happening, and be encouraged by whats happening in Iraq. If you must hate the man, don't hate the principle that is being excercised in Iraq. If President Clinton had been doing this, I think the he would have gone down as the most popular president in recent history.
 
CivilLiberty said:
I'm not a leftist I'm a conservative - and hey, wasn't it the Republicans who have always accused the Democrats of spending money?

Andy, you may consider yourself a conservative. But judging by the philosophy and attitudes contained in your posts, you'd have a hard time convincing me that you're not a lib.

But that's okay. We all have our faults. If I figure out what mine is, I'll let you know. I'm sure I have one around here somewhere. ;)
 
CivilLiberty said:
But...on who's dime? Do we go about freeing all the repressed nations while our own economic situation and spiraling national debt and plummeting dollar are causing our own serious problems?

if FDR had used that logice europe would be germany

if regan had used that logic we would still be in a cold war

if lincoln had used that logic the south would be a different country

if bush had used that logic iraq would be in kuwait and sadam would still be killing kurds and shites
 
Merlin1047 said:
Andy, you may consider yourself a conservative. But judging by the philosophy and attitudes contained in your posts, you'd have a hard time convincing me that you're not a lib.

I'm conservative, though not "neocon", nor "religious right".

I seek small, conservative government and an end to the nanny state.

I generally think that a repeal of the 14th and a return to states rights would be a good thing.

I'd like to see smaller taxes, but that has to be coupled with SMALLER GOVERNMENT SPENDING. In other words, true fiscal conservatism.


Merlin1047 said:
But that's okay. We all have our faults. If I figure out what mine is, I'll let you know. I'm sure I have one around here somewhere. ;)

I have a big fault - it's about 50 miles away from me, and named "San Andreas"...
 

Forum List

Back
Top