What exactly is the "one state solution"?

[P F Tinmore]

One of the most important things would be a solid constitution. Palestine already has that. Of course some modification of Title One would be necessary. The rest can go the way it is.

2003 Amended Basic Law

The best part would be that nobody would have to move from their current location.

One thing that must be avoided is what happened in south Africa. Political apartheid was dismantled but economic apartheid remained. The whites still owned everything.

Reclaiming property with compensation for damage and loss of past use would be required.

 

[rhodescholar]

Reclaiming property with compensation for damage and loss of past use would be required.

When are the 1 MM ethnically cleansed jews from arab muslim countries going to get their stolen land and property compensated for, scumbag?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Reclaiming property with compensation for damage and loss of past use would be required.

When are the 1 MM ethnically cleansed jews from arab muslim countries going to get their stolen land and property compensated for, scumbag?

Where is their right to return organization? I'll get on board.

 

[Coyote]

Thread has been cleaned YET AGAIN. As a result, 3 members have been thread banned. Any further violations will result in warnings, infractions or thread bans.

 

[teddyearp]

Unless the arab muslims endure a 180-degree mental cleansing, they will NEVER tolerate the rights of others as equals, only as second-class dhimmis who they will eventually subjugate.<snip>

No sane leader / student of history would EVER accept a situation where muslims could conceivably reach a threshold of authority, it would mean the subjugation of all other non-muslims, as it has every other place on earth for 14 centuries.

All of the idealistic dreaming will not change this fact, nor will it compel muslims to civilize and accept others as equals, it would be a direct violation of their core beliefs.

While I realize that most of rhodes' post could be considered 'sabre rattling', he does make a pretty fair point as to the history. What would or could stop the 'radicalizing' elements of Islam from making a power play like they have done and are doing in other majority Muslim countries around the world. Or even in majority Muslim communities within other countries around the world.

I do agree with what Shusha posted in #257, I do not see the rank and file Arab Muslim Palestinians going this way now, but nobody can deny that there are already 'radicalized' elements in the West Bank and let's not even mention Gaza, we know that it is ruled by a radicalized element. Although some call it an 'occupation' of the West Bank by Israel because of their various security forces, both covert and overt, it well may be said that this has been one thing keeping the radicalized element in check there.

A very tough call for sure. And it could even apply to a two state solution, however, I still think the two/three state is better than a one state for all the reasons I have already posted. Mainly if they are their own state and continue to wage war, then there would be no holds barred as to war like retaliation.

 

[teddyearp]

The Palestinians have to accept that Muslims, Christians and Jews will be equal citizens in the "Palestinian" state. Jews will have to agree that Muslims, Christians and Jews will be equal citizens of the "Jewish" state. The Palestinians have to respect that the Jewish state can call itself whatever it wants, e.g. Israel, and the Jews have to accept that the Palestinian state can call itself anything it wants, e.g. Palestine.

All confessions will have to agree that the State will have to be a secular state with no religion favored or named. They can run an internet contest to see what the State will be called. Kind of like Switzerland where its official name is the Helvetic Confederation and the cantons have their own names.

We all know what and where you really are going with this. Just want to point out that for the most part, the only religion that the Palestinians really accept is Islam. As they currently state, they want no Jews in the West Bank at all, and they have been making Christians unwelcome for years and years. Example: the Church of the Nativity has minarets on it, or at least right in manger square.

 

[Shusha]

The Palestinians have to accept that Muslims, Christians and Jews will be equal citizens in the "Palestinian" state. Jews will have to agree that Muslims, Christians and Jews will be equal citizens of the "Jewish" state.

It seems to me the Jewish people have already demonstrated their ability to do so. It seems to me the Arabs have decidedly demonstrated they not only lack the capacity to do so -- they lack the will to do so.

 

[teddyearp]

It seems to me the Jewish people have already demonstrated their ability to do so. It seems to me the Arabs have decidedly demonstrated they not only lack the capacity to do so -- they lack the will to do so.

Thank you, that is also where I was going in #266.

 

[Shusha]

I wouldn't rule out a one state solution but, like Teddy, I do think that Israel NOT being a 'Jewish homeland' would be a BIG issue!

Netanyahu and co would NEVER consider that UNLESS Israel had full control of the state, at least... Which of course, is then a problem for the Palestinians...

One state COULD work... However, I really don't see EITHER side agreeing to it!

We agree. So, let's discuss WHY solution (whether two states in one State or two States) unlikely to happen at this point. What is stopping people?

The Jewish people are afraid of losing their identity, their history, their culture, their sovereignty, their self-determination and MOST importantly, their safety. They fear that they will be giving up a sense of safety and security which has been lost to them for 3000 thousand years and finally regained.

Someone might have to help me out with the Palestinians here. I want to say that the Arab and especially the Muslim Palestinians are not willing to share power with another peoples.

 

[Shusha]

I do agree with what Shusha posted in #257, I do not see the rank and file Arab Muslim Palestinians going this way now, but nobody can deny that there are already 'radicalized' elements in the West Bank and let's not even mention Gaza, we know that it is ruled by a radicalized element. Although some call it an 'occupation' of the West Bank by Israel because of their various security forces, bot covert and overt, it well may be said that this has been one thing keeping the radicalized element in check there.

This is the problem. In any sort of changed scenario where we imagine an end to the conflict -- it tends to assume a neat little bubble. The radicalized elements are NOT being defeated at this time. On the contrary, they are growing stronger everywhere. So any plan for "peace" absolutely MUST include a way of dealing with this radicalized element. The BIG question is whether Arab Palestine, as a whole, is going to go the way of the radicals (as Gaza) or not. The corollary is whether or not peace with Israel, and an increased influence of moderate Israeli thought is capable of turning Arab Palestine into an ally. And whether or not it can be done in time.

 

[Shusha]

The Palestinians have to accept that Muslims, Christians and Jews will be equal citizens in the "Palestinian" state. Jews will have to agree that Muslims, Christians and Jews will be equal citizens of the "Jewish" state. The Palestinians have to respect that the Jewish state can call itself whatever it wants, e.g. Israel, and the Jews have to accept that the Palestinian state can call itself anything it wants, e.g. Palestine.

All confessions will have to agree that the State will have to be a secular state with no religion favored or named. They can run an internet contest to see what the State will be called. Kind of like Switzerland where its official name is the Helvetic Confederation and the cantons have their own names.

We all know what and where you really are going with this. Just want to point out that for the most part, the only religion that the Palestinians really accept is Islam. As they currently state, they want no Jews in the West Bank at all, and they have been making Christians unwelcome for years and years. Example: the Church of the Nativity has minarets on it, or at least right in manger square.

As evidence, why isn't everyone permitted to pray on the Temple Mount/Haram al Sharif? (and don't be telling me its Israel that is guiding that -- we all know that Israel is deliberately discriminating against the Jewish people to appease Muslims and their violence).

 

[teddyearp]

This is the problem. In any sort of changed scenario where we imagine an end to the conflict -- it tends to assume a neat little bubble. The radicalized elements are NOT being defeated at this time. On the contrary, they are growing stronger everywhere. So any plan for "peace" absolutely MUST include a way of dealing with this radicalized element. The BIG question is whether Arab Palestine, as a whole, is going to go the way of the radicals (as Gaza) or not. The corollary is whether or not peace with Israel, and an increased influence of moderate Israeli thought is capable of turning Arab Palestine into an ally. And whether or not it can be done in time.

Very well written. And by writing it, I believe you also see the futility in creating a one state. You are not seeing it and/or admitting it yet in this thread, but the two/three state solution is the only one that works, for the reasons I have posted now several times.

I'll not spam the board, lol.

 

[Coyote]

I see a one-state solution as unattainable because of the length and depth of the dispute. Neither people's have any trust in the other or the motives of the other, an when you look at public opinion polls that is evident. If you don't have trust how can you build a nation together?

The two sides have been separated so long they no longer know each as people or individuals.

We hear that the Palestinians will not accept a Jewish state, but likewise - there are significant numbers of Israeli Jews who believe that Arab Israeli's should not have equal rights.

There is also yet another gorilla in the room: genocide. How can you convince a people that have, until now, NEVER been a majority in a country, have a long history of persecution, had some 2/3rds of their people in Europe wiped out...that they will be secure in a state where they will no longer be a majority and where the majority hates them? That's a hard sell.

 

[Shusha]

This is the problem. In any sort of changed scenario where we imagine an end to the conflict -- it tends to assume a neat little bubble. The radicalized elements are NOT being defeated at this time. On the contrary, they are growing stronger everywhere. So any plan for "peace" absolutely MUST include a way of dealing with this radicalized element. The BIG question is whether Arab Palestine, as a whole, is going to go the way of the radicals (as Gaza) or not. The corollary is whether or not peace with Israel, and an increased influence of moderate Israeli thought is capable of turning Arab Palestine into an ally. And whether or not it can be done in time.

Very well written. And by writing it, I believe you also see the futility in creating a one state. You are not seeing it and/or admitting it yet in this thread, but the two/three state solution is the only one that works, for the reasons I have posted now several times.

I'll not spam the board, lol.

Lol. Spam is measured in quality and not in quantity. You could write a 100 posts and they wouldn't be spam.

I also see the futility of a one state solution. If that is not clear in my posts, I apologize. To be clear -- I believe the one state "solution" is a thinly disguised attempt to find a moral excuse for denying the rights of the Jewish people to a homeland and then destroying that homeland. The whole purpose of me starting this thread is not to point out the viability of the one state "solution" but to demonstrate how utterly unrealistic it is to try to create a state which meets the needs of the Jewish people while also bowing to the Arab Muslim narrative that it is their land and ONLY their land. It simply will not work.

Notice that the "one state solution" I posted yesterday is really just a variation of the two state solution which makes it slightly more palatable but actually permits overall Jewish and moderate control over the entire territory with respect to security in exchange for economic and other advantages for the Arab peoples.

But either, way, the only way through this is for the Arab Muslim Palestinians to change their fundamental ideology.

 

[Shusha]

We hear that the Palestinians will not accept a Jewish state, but likewise - there are significant numbers of Israeli Jews who believe that Arab Israeli's should not have equal rights.

There is also yet another gorilla in the room: genocide. How can you convince a people that have, until now, NEVER been a majority in a country, have a long history of persecution, had some 2/3rds of their people in Europe wiped out...that they will be secure in a state where they will no longer be a majority and where the majority hates them? That's a hard sell.

I would argue that your first paragraph here is directly correlated to the second. The Jewish people do not have a fundamental ideological conflict with equal rights -- indeed they tend to champion that ideal. But, if it comes down to a choice between restricting their own rights and restricting others, many will choose to restrict others. The idea is to NOT create a reality where the Jewish people are forced to make that choice.

 

[Humanity]

I wouldn't rule out a one state solution but, like Teddy, I do think that Israel NOT being a 'Jewish homeland' would be a BIG issue!

Netanyahu and co would NEVER consider that UNLESS Israel had full control of the state, at least... Which of course, is then a problem for the Palestinians...

One state COULD work... However, I really don't see EITHER side agreeing to it!

We agree. So, let's discuss WHY solution (whether two states in one State or two States) unlikely to happen at this point. What is stopping people?

The Jewish people are afraid of losing their identity, their history, their culture, their sovereignty, their self-determination and MOST importantly, their safety. They fear that they will be giving up a sense of safety and security which has been lost to them for 3000 thousand years and finally regained.

Someone might have to help me out with the Palestinians here. I want to say that the Arab and especially the Muslim Palestinians are not willing to share power with another peoples.

I'm loving that this thread, mostly, is drawing positive ideas from both sides...

Yes, we agree... I believe that MOST of us, pro Israel, pro Palestine agree... In principle... But there are 'reservations' on both sides...

The Jewish people paragraph...

You see, and I am so NOT anti Jewish... Quite the opposite... As I too am afraid that the Jewish people will lose 'something' in a one state solution... But, please, and I don't want the usual BS arguments about Palestine or Palestinians... But they TOO stand to lose 'something' in a one state solution...

So, in the same way that Jews don't hold much 'faith' in a peaceful Hamas, I don't hold much 'faith' in a peaceful Israel...

I know that I will receive the usual 'anti semite' chants, but, really, I do not have much belief in Israel being 'happy' with a divided 'territory'... I do still hold a strong belief that Israel would do unto the Palestinians as Hamas would do unto Israel...

That is why I believe that Hamas, in particular, should change their stance on Israel, amend their charter and look forward to free elections... Furthermore, their acceptance of the existence of Israel...

Jewish safety, Palestinian safety MUST be paramount in any negotiations! Right now, I do not see the safety of EITHER being even close to the top of the list!

Palestinians DO need external assistance in achieving their goals, that is for sure... But, as the 'weaker' group within the area, they also need reassurance and protection... I do NOT see Israel being that keen, either, on a power sharing agreement...

It's unfortunate that, IMHO, I would/could see Israel pushing Palestine into the sea... Yes, as is believed, Hamas would do the same to Israel... Neither a good solution!

A 'One State Solution' simply does NOT do it for me...

Guess what, not because of my feelings for the Palestinians but my feelings for the Jews... Persecution of the 'Jew' needs to end ... As does the persecution of, in the case, 'Palestinian'...

I get sick and tired of the constant rhetoric that is banded about freely here and elsewhere, I could give a flying **** about who was first, last etc... I just want to look forward NOT back!

Hey, I could be the ruler of a country I have NEVER visited simply because I traced my ancestry back through the centuries and discovered that I have a 'right', through my ancestors, to live there and, quite possibly RULE there... The reality is, why on earth would I bother?

My understanding and belief is that both Jew and Palestinian have quite extensive history in the region... That both Jew and Palestinian are 'brothers' who just chose to believe in different things...

Not one has more right than the other to live there...

When you want to confuse religion with politics with indigenous people, then you start creating all sorts of imaginary issues...

Hey, I am a Brit, My 'religion' is C of E... Historically, I was RC, Henry VIII changed that for me! My chosen 'religion' is a mix of what WORKS for me with a good smattering of belief in everyone!

Give Jews their homeland and allow Palestinians to have THEIR homeland...

Simple isn't it ;-)

 

[Coyote]

We hear that the Palestinians will not accept a Jewish state, but likewise - there are significant numbers of Israeli Jews who believe that Arab Israeli's should not have equal rights.

There is also yet another gorilla in the room: genocide. How can you convince a people that have, until now, NEVER been a majority in a country, have a long history of persecution, had some 2/3rds of their people in Europe wiped out...that they will be secure in a state where they will no longer be a majority and where the majority hates them? That's a hard sell.

I would argue that your first paragraph here is directly correlated to the second. The Jewish people do not have a fundamental ideological conflict with equal rights -- indeed they tend to champion that ideal. But, if it comes down to a choice between restricting their own rights and restricting others, many will choose to restrict others. The idea is to NOT create a reality where the Jewish people are forced to make that choice.

I would disagree here, based on opinion polls (it isn't a choice as you outline): October 2012 Yisraela Goldblum Fund poll - Wikipedia

 

[Shusha]

We hear that the Palestinians will not accept a Jewish state, but likewise - there are significant numbers of Israeli Jews who believe that Arab Israeli's should not have equal rights.

There is also yet another gorilla in the room: genocide. How can you convince a people that have, until now, NEVER been a majority in a country, have a long history of persecution, had some 2/3rds of their people in Europe wiped out...that they will be secure in a state where they will no longer be a majority and where the majority hates them? That's a hard sell.

I would argue that your first paragraph here is directly correlated to the second. The Jewish people do not have a fundamental ideological conflict with equal rights -- indeed they tend to champion that ideal. But, if it comes down to a choice between restricting their own rights and restricting others, many will choose to restrict others. The idea is to NOT create a reality where the Jewish people are forced to make that choice.

I would disagree here, based on opinion polls (it isn't a choice as you outline): October 2012 Yisraela Goldblum Fund poll - Wikipedia

But the reasons behind those opinions are directly related to an expectation of loss of Jewish control over Israel. Israelis don't fundamentally believe Arabs have no right to vote. They FEAR that a right to vote will lead to a loss of Jewish voice.

 

[Coyote]

We hear that the Palestinians will not accept a Jewish state, but likewise - there are significant numbers of Israeli Jews who believe that Arab Israeli's should not have equal rights.

There is also yet another gorilla in the room: genocide. How can you convince a people that have, until now, NEVER been a majority in a country, have a long history of persecution, had some 2/3rds of their people in Europe wiped out...that they will be secure in a state where they will no longer be a majority and where the majority hates them? That's a hard sell.

I would argue that your first paragraph here is directly correlated to the second. The Jewish people do not have a fundamental ideological conflict with equal rights -- indeed they tend to champion that ideal. But, if it comes down to a choice between restricting their own rights and restricting others, many will choose to restrict others. The idea is to NOT create a reality where the Jewish people are forced to make that choice.

I would disagree here, based on opinion polls (it isn't a choice as you outline): October 2012 Yisraela Goldblum Fund poll - Wikipedia

But the reasons behind those opinions are directly related to an expectation of loss of Jewish control over Israel. Israelis don't fundamentally believe Arabs have no right to vote. They FEAR that a right to vote will lead to a loss of Jewish voice.

I'm not so sure about that...I think it's splitting hairs.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Decolonization is the only just solution. It would be in compliance with international law and nobody's rights would be violated.

Every "solution" I have seen so far included the violation of rights.