What exactly is the "one state solution"?

[rhodescholar]

Hi rhodescholar I do not disagree with you AT ALL

You lack sufficient information.

that MANY fundamentalist followers and countries follow this political religion you describe.

I have posted time and time again here pew research polls showing widespread support - as much as 85% in Jordan - for terrorism and violence in the name of islam. There is nothing in ANY non-muslim country that is even remotely comparable.

This does NOT NEGATE at all the fact that MANY Muslims are like Christians, Buddhists, Hindus Atheists etc who respect CIVIL GOVT and AUTHORITY as law, and practice their faith IN HARMONY with that.

I did NOT say all or even 90%; I said VERY large numbers, in the hundreds of millions - which is supported by FACT.

Where Terrorism Finds Support in the Muslim World

There's a Worrisome Amount of Support in Jordan for the Islamic State

 

[montelatici]

 

[Humanity]

You

Bottom feeding idiot asshole, if you had any brains you'd STFU and let the adults talk. Ignored.

It's just unfortunate that you don't have the capacity to understand, you just prefer your 'racist' views and believe them LOL

You actually know NOTHING of Islam or of ANY Islamic country...

Go and meet real Muslims then come back for an adult conversation!

That's unless you are far too busy " Strafing Iranian RGs with my .50 Cal"

 

[rhodescholar]

Can you name ONE other country like America that has BOTH the foundations based on Constitutionalism/natural laws AND Judeo-Christian scriptural laws as the defining CULTURAL traditions?

Israel is one, the Vatican, Ireland and Switzerland are others.

Fifth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland - Wikipedia

Religion in Switzerland - Wikipedia

Look at China. Can you blame their oppressive govt on Islam? So the problem is bigger than that.

I did NOT claim there weren't other repressive countries - I said ALL muslim countries are so let's start with islam since that is 57 countries right there, while there is only one china.

We have freedom of speech and press in order to PETITION for redress of grievances that other countries don't have. Arab, Muslim or not.

Learn more about islam, and you will understand why - which I did explain above, where islam is the word of God and cannot be changed/altered.

 

[montelatici]

Switzerland is completely secular and so is Ireland. The Vatican is a special case. It's an absolute religious oligarchy. As usual Rhodes is full of crap.

 

[Humanity]

I did NOT claim there weren't other repressive countries - I said ALL muslim countries are so let's start with islam since that is 57 countries right there, while there is only one china.

So, ALL Muslim countries are "repressive"?

How is the Maldives "repressive"?
How is Indonisia "repressive"?
How is Mayotte "repressive"?
How is Morocco "repressive"?
How is Malaysia "repressive"?

I shan't continue to embarrass you by continuing the extensive list of Muslim countries!!!

 

[Coyote]

Religion alone doesn't mean a common culture nor does that reasoning give ANYONE a right to uproot a people and expell them.

So that gives them a pass for their ******* shit behavior?

Tell that to the yazidis, coptics and maronites, who the arab muslims are slaughtering RIGHT NOW, or to the over 1 MM jews who were ethnically cleansed out of arab countries. When the arab muslims start making amends for their horrible past and improving their current awful behavior, THEN I would be open to discussing the Israel situation.

Let me refine my earlier question: when have the arab muslims shown any tolerance for the sovereign rights of others in the mideast?

No one is giving a "pass" for shitty behavior. History is full of shitty behavior and we continue to see shitty behavior around the world, like Russia's lack of tolerance for the sovereign rights of others.

In regard to what is happening to the minority communities in Syria at the hands of ISIS - no one is giving them a free pass, including most of the Muslim world.

In the meantime, you want to punish people living in Palestine today for the actions of other countries 60 years ago, before many of them were even born. I strongly oppose collective punishment.

As per your question: that's pretty broad - so what exactly do you mean by sovereign rights of others? Relations with other nations?

 

[montelatici]

Can you name ONE other country like America that has BOTH the foundations based on Constitutionalism/natural laws AND Judeo-Christian scriptural laws as the defining CULTURAL traditions?

Israel is one, the Vatican, Ireland and Switzerland are others.

Fifth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland - Wikipedia

Religion in Switzerland - Wikipedia

Look at China. Can you blame their oppressive govt on Islam? So the problem is bigger than that.

I did NOT claim there weren't other repressive countries - I said ALL muslim countries are so let's start with islam since that is 57 countries right there, while there is only one china.

We have freedom of speech and press in order to PETITION for redress of grievances that other countries don't have. Arab, Muslim or not.

Learn more about islam, and you will understand why - which I did explain above, where islam is the word of God and cannot be changed/altered.

The fifth amendment of the Irish constitution deleted two sections of the constitution that recognized the special position of the Catholic Church.

The Swiss constitution does not mention any religion. It just states that:


Article 15 Freedom of Faith and Conscience
(1) The freedom of faith and conscience is guaranteed.
(2) Every person has the right to freely choose his or her religion or non-denominational belief and to profess them alone or in community with others.
(3) Every person has the right to join or belong to a religious community and to receive religious education.
(4) No person may be forced to join a religious community, to conduct a religious act or participate in religious education.

Go back to school.

 

[Coyote]

ONCE AGAIN: Please discuss the topic. The topic is not religion. Review Post #1 for enlightenment.

 

[montelatici]

ONCE AGAIN: Please discuss the topic. The topic is not religion. Review Post #1 for enlightenment.

The basis of a poster's assertion is a false premise. The premise is used to claim that there cannot be a one-state solution. How can anyone rebut an assertion based on a false premise without addressing the false premise first?

 

[Coyote]

ONCE AGAIN: Please discuss the topic. The topic is not religion. Review Post #1 for enlightenment.

The basis of a poster's assertion is a false premise. The premise is used to claim that there cannot be a one-state solution. How can anyone rebut an assertion based on a false premise without addressing the false premise first?

I wasn't aiming this specifically at you but at others as well. The thread is starting to dive into a discussion of the merits of various religions and terrorism worldwide - none of which have to do with a one state solution and will end up derailing the thread in a predictable direction

 

[montelatici]

Ok.

 

[emilynghiem]

Learn more about islam, and you will understand why - which I did explain above, where islam is the word of God and cannot be changed/altered.

Hi rhodescholar And bTW I'm GLAD to meet you here where we can have this conversation that is very critical, politically and spiritually. Thank you for bringing this thread and topic to my attention.

YES, if you teach
Islam
Christianity
Constitutionalism
CORRECTLY as Universally INCLUSIVE principles,
these reflect what is called "God's laws" that are unchanging.

What is absolute truth, what will establish equal justice and what will bring peace for ALL humanity INCLUSIVELY.

However, the teaching of Islam that IS universally inclusive and "eternal truth" *teaches respect and peace* among
* Jews under the Torah
* Christians under Bible Scripture
* Muslims under the Quran
where Muslim adherence to Biblical Authority INCLUDES the same God and Jesus and prophets/teachings that CHRISTIANS obey,
INCLUDING the natural laws and CIVIL OBEDIENCE to Secular Authority that both Christians and Righteous Gentiles obey. This is in the Bible, so Muslims are bound by that authority as well.

So YES if you teach Islam correctly where it obeys ALL laws of both church and state given by God,
YES I AGREE THESE BY DEFINITION ARE ABSOLUTE, UNIVERSAL AND UNCHANGING. Just like the "universal laws" reflected in Christianity when taught consistently, and in Constitutional laws based on natural laws for all humanity.

When you really do this, the compelling authority of God's will through Christ UNITES the secular under natural laws with the believers under scriptural authority in the spirit of Jesus or Universal/Equal Justice.

So the Muslim teaching of peace among Jews Christians and Muslims as People of the Book is ALSO met and realized. There IS NO Jew or Gentile, but all are made one perfect and whole in Christ Jesus. Muslims included.

Totally agree.
But this does not negate the hellish reality we face now of anti-christian Jihadists and Armageddon fanatics waging war against the world thinking they are bringing God's will in the end times. You may call that "Islam" but That is NOT true submission in peace to the ideal will of God, though it is the sad history and reality of the human process and learning curve until we can establish true peace and justice the right way. Not by war but by establishing truth and justice democratically so there is consensus and peace, and not coercive politics trying to dominate the process for control.

 

[emilynghiem]

Can you name ONE other country like America that has BOTH the foundations based on Constitutionalism/natural laws AND Judeo-Christian scriptural laws as the defining CULTURAL traditions?

Israel is one, the Vatican, Ireland and Switzerland are others.

Fifth Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland - Wikipedia

Religion in Switzerland - Wikipedia

Look at China. Can you blame their oppressive govt on Islam? So the problem is bigger than that.

I did NOT claim there weren't other repressive countries - I said ALL muslim countries are so let's start with islam since that is 57 countries right there, while there is only one china.

We have freedom of speech and press in order to PETITION for redress of grievances that other countries don't have. Arab, Muslim or not.

Learn more about islam, and you will understand why - which I did explain above, where islam is the word of God and cannot be changed/altered.

The fifth amendment of the Irish constitution deleted two sections of the constitution that recognized the special position of the Catholic Church.

The Swiss constitution does not mention any religion. It just states that:


Article 15 Freedom of Faith and Conscience
(1) The freedom of faith and conscience is guaranteed.
(2) Every person has the right to freely choose his or her religion or non-denominational belief and to profess them alone or in community with others.
(3) Every person has the right to join or belong to a religious community and to receive religious education.
(4) No person may be forced to join a religious community, to conduct a religious act or participate in religious education.

Go back to school.

Dear montelatici and rhodescholar:
For this concept of "religious freedom" which Constitutionalism is famous for, Islam teaches it as "there is no compulsion in religion" in the words of Mohammad.

If Jewish Christian and Muslim leaders can agree on religious freedom and no compulsion but all by free will,
is this enough to establish peace in the Middle East?

Shouldn't the process be for the leaders who CAN make peace to establish a peaceful good faith process *FIRST*,
THEN use that restored relationship to address and decide if a one state or two state solution is needed *SECOND*.

With the US there are 50 states but 1 union.
What will it take to establish similar respect and sovereignty for local states while maintaining peace and unity between them as ONE body?

Wouldn't the leadership of all 3 tribes need to be represented to bring about global peace on this level??

 

[rhodescholar]

And bTW I'm GLAD to meet you here where we can have this conversation that is very critical, politically and spiritually. Thank you for bringing this thread and topic to my attention.

YES, if you teach
Islam
Christianity
Constitutionalism
CORRECTLY as Universally INCLUSIVE principles,
these reflect what is called "God's laws" that are unchanging.

What is absolute truth, what will establish equal justice and what will bring peace for ALL humanity INCLUSIVELY.

However, the teaching of Islam that IS universally inclusive and "eternal truth" *teaches respect and peace* among
* Jews under the Torah
* Christians under Bible Scripture
* Muslims under the Quran
where Muslim adherence to Biblical Authority INCLUDES the same God and Jesus and prophets/teachings that CHRISTIANS obey,
INCLUDING the natural laws and CIVIL OBEDIENCE to Secular Authority that both Christians and Righteous Gentiles obey. This is in the Bible, so Muslims are bound by that authority as well.

So YES if you teach Islam correctly where it obeys ALL laws of both church and state given by God,
YES I AGREE THESE BY DEFINITION ARE ABSOLUTE, UNIVERSAL AND UNCHANGING. Just like the "universal laws" reflected in Christianity when taught consistently, and in Constitutional laws based on natural laws for all humanity.

When you really do this, the compelling authority of God's will through Christ UNITES the secular under natural laws with the believers under scriptural authority in the spirit of Jesus or Universal/Equal Justice.

So the Muslim teaching of peace among Jews Christians and Muslims as People of the Book is ALSO met and realized. There IS NO Jew or Gentile, but all are made one perfect and whole in Christ Jesus. Muslims included.

Totally agree.
But this does not negate the hellish reality we face now of anti-christian Jihadists and Armageddon fanatics waging war against the world thinking they are bringing God's will in the end times. You may call that "Islam" but That is NOT true submission in peace to the ideal will of God, though it is the sad history and reality of the human process and learning curve until we can establish true peace and justice the right way. Not by war but by establishing truth and justice democratically so there is consensus and peace, and not coercive politics trying to dominate the process for control.

You might want to read up on some of the hadiths that call for the death and complete destruction of jews and non-muslims.

 

[rhodescholar]

For this concept of "religious freedom" which Constitutionalism is famous for, Islam teaches it as "there is no compulsion in religion" in the words of Mohammad.

If Jewish Christian and Muslim leaders can agree on religious freedom and no compulsion but all by free will,
is this enough to establish peace in the Middle East?

Shouldn't the process be for the leaders who CAN make peace to establish a peaceful good faith process *FIRST*,
THEN use that restored relationship to address and decide if a one state or two state solution is needed *SECOND*.

With the US there are 50 states but 1 union.
What will it take to establish similar respect and sovereignty for local states while maintaining peace and unity between them as ONE body?

Wouldn't the leadership of all 3 tribes need to be represented to bring about global peace on this level??

Muslim leaders, even in their own countries almost totally devoid of non-muslims, STILL do not allow for free speech or basic human/civil rights; what on earth makes you think they'd offer such rights to non-muslims when they themselves do not practice such rights, and polls show the majority do not even WANT such rights?

 

[Shusha]

What will it take to establish similar respect and sovereignty for local states while maintaining peace and unity between them as ONE body?

That is the large pink elephant sitting on the table, isn't it? Care to take a stab at answering it?

What will it take, in a one state solution, for the Jewish people to feel that in a hundred years, the one state will still be Jewish in character?

 

[montelatici]

The one state will either be an Apartheid state self-proclaimed as Jewish, or a secular, non-theocratic, democratic, multi-cultural, multi-religious state. There is no way around it with the current population mix under Israeli Jew rule.

 

[emilynghiem]

And bTW I'm GLAD to meet you here where we can have this conversation that is very critical, politically and spiritually. Thank you for bringing this thread and topic to my attention.

YES, if you teach
Islam
Christianity
Constitutionalism
CORRECTLY as Universally INCLUSIVE principles,
these reflect what is called "God's laws" that are unchanging.

What is absolute truth, what will establish equal justice and what will bring peace for ALL humanity INCLUSIVELY.

However, the teaching of Islam that IS universally inclusive and "eternal truth" *teaches respect and peace* among
* Jews under the Torah
* Christians under Bible Scripture
* Muslims under the Quran
where Muslim adherence to Biblical Authority INCLUDES the same God and Jesus and prophets/teachings that CHRISTIANS obey,
INCLUDING the natural laws and CIVIL OBEDIENCE to Secular Authority that both Christians and Righteous Gentiles obey. This is in the Bible, so Muslims are bound by that authority as well.

So YES if you teach Islam correctly where it obeys ALL laws of both church and state given by God,
YES I AGREE THESE BY DEFINITION ARE ABSOLUTE, UNIVERSAL AND UNCHANGING. Just like the "universal laws" reflected in Christianity when taught consistently, and in Constitutional laws based on natural laws for all humanity.

When you really do this, the compelling authority of God's will through Christ UNITES the secular under natural laws with the believers under scriptural authority in the spirit of Jesus or Universal/Equal Justice.

So the Muslim teaching of peace among Jews Christians and Muslims as People of the Book is ALSO met and realized. There IS NO Jew or Gentile, but all are made one perfect and whole in Christ Jesus. Muslims included.

Totally agree.
But this does not negate the hellish reality we face now of anti-christian Jihadists and Armageddon fanatics waging war against the world thinking they are bringing God's will in the end times. You may call that "Islam" but That is NOT true submission in peace to the ideal will of God, though it is the sad history and reality of the human process and learning curve until we can establish true peace and justice the right way. Not by war but by establishing truth and justice democratically so there is consensus and peace, and not coercive politics trying to dominate the process for control.

You might want to read up on some of the hadiths that call for the death and complete destruction of jews and non-muslims.

Dear rhodescholar
1. First to answer your post
2. Second to tie it back to OP

1. Mohammad giving war and battle cried during religious war for turf is SEPARATE from spiritual teaching of peace for civilians in peacetime and secular society. I would compare Pres GW Bush who would teach and practice charity as a Christian in personal life but as Commander in Chief was in charge of military giving troops instructions to charge into houses and shoot to kill on the spot. no due process was followed as in civil law and peacetime because this was during wartime. It is legal constitutionally for soldiers to kill the enemy combatants without due process to prove guilt first, but not legal for citizens to do this in society.

2. Since Mohammad was both a political military leader during wartime and a spiritual teacher and leader during peacetime, these must not be taken out of context. Or it becomes as illegal and criminal as people taking up arms and declaring war on govt and killing innocent civilians. That's NOT the same context as US soldiers taking up arms and following orders to kill the enemy.

2. Now to tie this back to working out a one state or two state solution, the issue is when Jihadists Islamists Zionists or other fundamentalists take their political religion and impose it through the state. That's why we inevitably include this discussion of where the religion stops and the secular state begins .

I can see the different factions under a unified umbrella if there is agreement on the principles and policies in common. For example, if all leaders/states agree to put a central "Constitutional " authority first, which then protects the free exercise of each religion underneath that umbrella, tjs might work.

Spiritually if all the leaders of each tribe agrees to put god first and come together as equals in Christ, that might work as the unifying glue which still allows full exercise and expression of diversity of each person and group.

So that's why I brought up the universal principles as the backbone needed to pull together and support all the factions as one body without losing individual autonomy and identity.

That cohesion is needed first.
Then the people can work out plans second. These are too sensitive and involved to decide in a hostile environment of distrust and undermining each other to dominate the decision process. First find the leaders who can collaborate in peace . then the right plans will follow from there!

 

[Shusha]

... or a secular, non-theocratic, democratic, multi-cultural, multi-religious state ...

Fine. How do we get there from here? What steps need to be taken? How are you going to guarantee that the state remains this way?