What exactly is the "one state solution"?

[Coyote]

This thread is NOT about the origins of peoples or states or who was where and when - we have threads dedicated to that already so no more derailing. Get back on topic - is one state feasable? What would it look like? This thread will be cleaned.

 

[Coyote]

Forced expulsion of people is a crime and seldom ended well for the people expelled. They usually end up in worse circumstances. I'm guessing this poster and his buddy would have cheered the Trail of Tears. It's no solution.

They are no different than the illegal alien mexicans and nicaraguans who walked across the US border; they have no right to be there. They came for jobs - now they have to leave.

There is lots of land in saudia arabia, egypt and throughout the mideast - they can live there. I'm fed up with watching the arab muslims ethnically cleanse everyone else out of the mideast - then complain with help from enabling morons like you - about how the one group they cannot force out (Israel) is standing up for itself and not capitulating like the others who are not as militarily strong.

There was some Arab immigraton, but by no means were they all immigrants. Just like there was Jewish immigration from Europe. Do you propose chucking them back to Europe?

Given that many of them have lived on that piece of land for generations or centuries...no...they aren't like "illegal immigrants" in the US. People have TIES to land, family ties, cultural ties.

 

[Coyote]

No my friend...It is YOU who is brain damaged if you think that post #135 is a solution! That is just stupid, arrogant BS that is expected from those who have little to no knowledge of that real situation in the ME... So, shall we try, just one more time, go on, give it a go... Other than your dumb belligerence, do you actually have a sensible thing to offer as a solution? It's ok if you don't... Wouldn't want you to hurt yourself...

Retarded asshole, the arab muslims are IN NO ******* POSITION WHATSOEVER to make demands or demand a settlement to their liking; they initiated MULTIPLE wars against Israel and have been murdering jews there for centuries. They are SO, SO ******* fortunate that it is the jews who are there because had it been any other group they would have responded to the endless, mindless terrorism from the arabs with guns blazing and lit up the ******* arabs for 1,000 miles - none would even still be living in the area.

Being allowed to move out is FAR better than they deserve, as I said most would not even be alive today had it been a different group than the softie jews, who crave peace and being liked more than most humans want air to breathe.

You simply do not like the solution which is your problem; if you don't like it - then you should stop asking.

Speaking of questions - when are you going to answer mine: when have the arab muslims EVER in recorded history lived peacefully with another non-muslim group as equals?

Oh, oh... Calm down dear...

It's clear that you are simply not capable of adult conversation... It's ok, not everyone has the capability of non abusive, adult debate...

Listen, we can all shout and scream "leave", no matter where you are from... However, that is not a solution is it!

Forced expulsion of people is a crime and seldom ended well for the people expelled. They usually end up in worse circumstances.

Is that also relevent in cases of Amona and Gush Katif, or are only Arabs worh protecting from home demolishions?

I'll hold you to what you said.

Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?

Amona:
Amona (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land. As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]

The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]

I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.

Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.

 

[Lipush]

No my friend...It is YOU who is brain damaged if you think that post #135 is a solution! That is just stupid, arrogant BS that is expected from those who have little to no knowledge of that real situation in the ME... So, shall we try, just one more time, go on, give it a go... Other than your dumb belligerence, do you actually have a sensible thing to offer as a solution? It's ok if you don't... Wouldn't want you to hurt yourself...

Retarded asshole, the arab muslims are IN NO ******* POSITION WHATSOEVER to make demands or demand a settlement to their liking; they initiated MULTIPLE wars against Israel and have been murdering jews there for centuries. They are SO, SO ******* fortunate that it is the jews who are there because had it been any other group they would have responded to the endless, mindless terrorism from the arabs with guns blazing and lit up the ******* arabs for 1,000 miles - none would even still be living in the area.

Being allowed to move out is FAR better than they deserve, as I said most would not even be alive today had it been a different group than the softie jews, who crave peace and being liked more than most humans want air to breathe.

You simply do not like the solution which is your problem; if you don't like it - then you should stop asking.

Speaking of questions - when are you going to answer mine: when have the arab muslims EVER in recorded history lived peacefully with another non-muslim group as equals?

Oh, oh... Calm down dear...

It's clear that you are simply not capable of adult conversation... It's ok, not everyone has the capability of non abusive, adult debate...

Listen, we can all shout and scream "leave", no matter where you are from... However, that is not a solution is it!

Forced expulsion of people is a crime and seldom ended well for the people expelled. They usually end up in worse circumstances.

Is that also relevent in cases of Amona and Gush Katif, or are only Arabs worh protecting from home demolishions?

I'll hold you to what you said.

Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?

Amona:
Amona (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land. As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]

The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]

I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.

Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.

Which will create another injustice.

 

[Lipush]

No my friend...It is YOU who is brain damaged if you think that post #135 is a solution! That is just stupid, arrogant BS that is expected from those who have little to no knowledge of that real situation in the ME... So, shall we try, just one more time, go on, give it a go... Other than your dumb belligerence, do you actually have a sensible thing to offer as a solution? It's ok if you don't... Wouldn't want you to hurt yourself...

Retarded asshole, the arab muslims are IN NO ******* POSITION WHATSOEVER to make demands or demand a settlement to their liking; they initiated MULTIPLE wars against Israel and have been murdering jews there for centuries. They are SO, SO ******* fortunate that it is the jews who are there because had it been any other group they would have responded to the endless, mindless terrorism from the arabs with guns blazing and lit up the ******* arabs for 1,000 miles - none would even still be living in the area.

Being allowed to move out is FAR better than they deserve, as I said most would not even be alive today had it been a different group than the softie jews, who crave peace and being liked more than most humans want air to breathe.

You simply do not like the solution which is your problem; if you don't like it - then you should stop asking.

Speaking of questions - when are you going to answer mine: when have the arab muslims EVER in recorded history lived peacefully with another non-muslim group as equals?

Oh, oh... Calm down dear...

It's clear that you are simply not capable of adult conversation... It's ok, not everyone has the capability of non abusive, adult debate...

Listen, we can all shout and scream "leave", no matter where you are from... However, that is not a solution is it!

Forced expulsion of people is a crime and seldom ended well for the people expelled. They usually end up in worse circumstances.

Is that also relevent in cases of Amona and Gush Katif, or are only Arabs worh protecting from home demolishions?

I'll hold you to what you said.

Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?

Amona:
Amona (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land. As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]

The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]

I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.

Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.

Leaving Amona out, what about Gush Katif? a different issue than amona.

 

[Coyote]

Retarded asshole, the arab muslims are IN NO ******* POSITION WHATSOEVER to make demands or demand a settlement to their liking; they initiated MULTIPLE wars against Israel and have been murdering jews there for centuries. They are SO, SO ******* fortunate that it is the jews who are there because had it been any other group they would have responded to the endless, mindless terrorism from the arabs with guns blazing and lit up the ******* arabs for 1,000 miles - none would even still be living in the area.

Being allowed to move out is FAR better than they deserve, as I said most would not even be alive today had it been a different group than the softie jews, who crave peace and being liked more than most humans want air to breathe.

You simply do not like the solution which is your problem; if you don't like it - then you should stop asking.

Speaking of questions - when are you going to answer mine: when have the arab muslims EVER in recorded history lived peacefully with another non-muslim group as equals?

Oh, oh... Calm down dear...

It's clear that you are simply not capable of adult conversation... It's ok, not everyone has the capability of non abusive, adult debate...

Listen, we can all shout and scream "leave", no matter where you are from... However, that is not a solution is it!

Forced expulsion of people is a crime and seldom ended well for the people expelled. They usually end up in worse circumstances.

Is that also relevent in cases of Amona and Gush Katif, or are only Arabs worh protecting from home demolishions?

I'll hold you to what you said.

Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?

Amona:
Amona (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land. As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]

The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]

I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.

Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.

Which will create another injustice.

It they illegally built on another person's land using forged documents - how is it an injustice to allow them to profit from their crimes?

 

[Coyote]

Retarded asshole, the arab muslims are IN NO ******* POSITION WHATSOEVER to make demands or demand a settlement to their liking; they initiated MULTIPLE wars against Israel and have been murdering jews there for centuries. They are SO, SO ******* fortunate that it is the jews who are there because had it been any other group they would have responded to the endless, mindless terrorism from the arabs with guns blazing and lit up the ******* arabs for 1,000 miles - none would even still be living in the area.

Being allowed to move out is FAR better than they deserve, as I said most would not even be alive today had it been a different group than the softie jews, who crave peace and being liked more than most humans want air to breathe.

You simply do not like the solution which is your problem; if you don't like it - then you should stop asking.

Speaking of questions - when are you going to answer mine: when have the arab muslims EVER in recorded history lived peacefully with another non-muslim group as equals?

Oh, oh... Calm down dear...

It's clear that you are simply not capable of adult conversation... It's ok, not everyone has the capability of non abusive, adult debate...

Listen, we can all shout and scream "leave", no matter where you are from... However, that is not a solution is it!

Forced expulsion of people is a crime and seldom ended well for the people expelled. They usually end up in worse circumstances.

Is that also relevent in cases of Amona and Gush Katif, or are only Arabs worh protecting from home demolishions?

I'll hold you to what you said.

Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?

Amona:
Amona (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land. As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]

The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]

I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.

Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.

Leaving Amona out, what about Gush Katif? a different issue than amona.

I had to look that one up also, and yes - a very different case. That was an injustice.

 

[Lipush]

Oh, oh... Calm down dear...

It's clear that you are simply not capable of adult conversation... It's ok, not everyone has the capability of non abusive, adult debate...

Listen, we can all shout and scream "leave", no matter where you are from... However, that is not a solution is it!

Forced expulsion of people is a crime and seldom ended well for the people expelled. They usually end up in worse circumstances.

Is that also relevent in cases of Amona and Gush Katif, or are only Arabs worh protecting from home demolishions?

I'll hold you to what you said.

Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?

Amona:
Amona (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land. As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]

The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]

I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.

Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.

Leaving Amona out, what about Gush Katif? a different issue than amona.

I had to look that one up also, and yes - a very different case. That was an injustice.

Injustice that some Anti-Israelis wish to see happen in all of Israel.

 

[Coyote]

Forced expulsion of people is a crime and seldom ended well for the people expelled. They usually end up in worse circumstances.

Is that also relevent in cases of Amona and Gush Katif, or are only Arabs worh protecting from home demolishions?

I'll hold you to what you said.

Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?

Amona:
Amona (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land. As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]

The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]

I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.

Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.

Leaving Amona out, what about Gush Katif? a different issue than amona.

I had to look that one up also, and yes - a very different case. That was an injustice.

Injustice that some Anti-Israelis wish to see happen in all of Israel.

I don't happen agree with that.

I notice also that some anti-Palestinianists (such as Rhodescholar) call for that as a solution to the Palestinian issue. What are your thoughts on that?

 

[Lipush]

Is that also relevent in cases of Amona and Gush Katif, or are only Arabs worh protecting from home demolishions?

I'll hold you to what you said.

Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?

Amona:
Amona (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land. As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]

The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]

I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.

Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.

Leaving Amona out, what about Gush Katif? a different issue than amona.

I had to look that one up also, and yes - a very different case. That was an injustice.

Injustice that some Anti-Israelis wish to see happen in all of Israel.

I don't happen agree with that.

I notice also that some anti-Palestinianists (such as Rhodescholar) call for that as a solution to the Palestinian issue. What are your thoughts on that?

I don't think that will improve anything. Unlike P F Tinmore, I don't dream about removing people from their homes, just because it makes me giddy. I hate that he says we should all vanish, just because, and so it will be hypocritical of me to say that about the Arabs.

However, if and when a Palestinian state will exist, it's only natural to expect them to move there, willingly. It won't be wrong to convince them, peacefully, of course, that they'd be better off in their own state.

 

[rhodescholar]

There was some Arab immigraton, but by no means were they all immigrants.

Not according to the mentally ill troll monte, he claims there weren't any, so which of you are lying?

Just like there was Jewish immigration from Europe. Do you propose chucking them back to Europe?

The difference being the power in control of the area, first the Brits then the UN, decided to create a jewish homeland - so why would they need to go back to europe when they originaly came from Israel in the first place?

Given that many of them have lived on that piece of land for generations or centuries...

"Centuries" for the druze and a few others, for the vast majority, that's laughable nonsense.

 

[Shusha]

Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?

Amona:
Amona (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land. As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]

The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]

I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.

Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.

I think we have to be very careful when we use phrases like "privately owned Palestinian land" as it carries a MUCH different context here in the west. Our vision is that Jewish people knocked on the door of a Palestinian family one day and told them to get out. Or that they burned down a bunch of someone else's olive trees to make way for their own. Or whatever. In reality, land laws in Area C are a complex interplay between Ottoman laws, Jordanian laws and Israeli laws. And if land is not designated as officially "crown lands" it carries the designation of "private Palestinian land" even if that land was unused, had no claimants to it and no had paid taxes on it. Here is a good article on it.

Personally, I think the way forward is a humanitarian approach rather than a legal one. (We can always bend the law to suit our humanity, don't you think?) That means people have to be able to choose. But it might also mean that those who do not hold loyalty and allegience to their new state should be extradited. It means we solve the problems underlying illegal building, rather than worry about illegal building. And it means that Israel should, unilaterally, take control of those parts of Area C it intends to keep and act accordingly: all the Palestinian cities and villages in those areas get infrastructure just like Israeli cities do (Israel is already quietly doing this); everything gets surveyed and registered and taxes paid, everything not registered to an individual becomes crown land, every area gets a municipal boundary and a building plan which accommodates everyone. Conversely, it also means Israel should unilaterally drop control of those parts of Area C in which it intends not to keep and act accordingly: if you are a Jew and you build there you will get no help or support from Israel. Carrot and stick.

 

[montelatici]

The fact is, the one-state solution has existed for the past half century or so. There is one state that has control over a territory and population of enfranchised and unenfranchised people.

It does not seem that the Israelis will have it any other way. Whether the Israelis and the U.S. can force the the non-Jews to sign off on a permanent military occupation and control of the borders, air space and territorial sea of an ersatz Palestinian State, or if the non-Jews don't sign-off, it is still a one-state solution.

The question is whether the system of enforced segregation based on religion/ethnicity, put in place by an exclusive, self defined group in order to maintain colonial conquest and its hold on the land and natural resources will remain in place.

 

[rhodescholar]

I notice also that some anti-Palestinianists (such as Rhodescholar) call for that as a solution to the Palestinian issue. What are your thoughts on that?

The arab muslims have FIFTY-SEVEN muslim countries to move to, the jews have none. There is a long history of mis-treatment of jews across the christian and muslim worlds, given that the muslims have treated jews horrendously they cannot complain that after 14 centuries of such that they have a say in the creation of a tiny speck of land the jews can call "home." There is no comparison between the 2,000 year old claims of the jews and the 3-decade claim of the fakestinians, none.

 

[Coyote]

Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?

Amona:
Amona (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land. As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]

The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]

I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.

Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.

Leaving Amona out, what about Gush Katif? a different issue than amona.

I had to look that one up also, and yes - a very different case. That was an injustice.

Injustice that some Anti-Israelis wish to see happen in all of Israel.

I don't happen agree with that.

I notice also that some anti-Palestinianists (such as Rhodescholar) call for that as a solution to the Palestinian issue. What are your thoughts on that?

I don't think that will improve anything. Unlike P F Tinmore, I don't dream about removing people from their homes, just because it makes me giddy. I hate that he says we should all vanish, just because, and so it will be hypocritical of me to say that about the Arabs.

However, if and when a Palestinian state will exist, it's only natural to expect them to move there, willingly. It won't be wrong to convince them, peacefully, of course, that they'd be better off in their own state.

I think people should be given free choice - that's how I view it

Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?

Amona:
Amona (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land. As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]

The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]

I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.

Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.

I think we have to be very careful when we use phrases like "privately owned Palestinian land" as it carries a MUCH different context here in the west. Our vision is that Jewish people knocked on the door of a Palestinian family one day and told them to get out. Or that they burned down a bunch of someone else's olive trees to make way for their own. Or whatever. In reality, land laws in Area C are a complex interplay between Ottoman laws, Jordanian laws and Israeli laws. And if land is not designated as officially "crown lands" it carries the designation of "private Palestinian land" even if that land was unused, had no claimants to it and no had paid taxes on it. Here is a good article on it.

I realize the complexities of land ownership in that part of the world - but, the courts have definitively ruled on that particular community and documents were falsified. I don't think sometimes theft is theft right? If it keeps getting justified, then that adds substance to the allegations made against Israel that they are "stealing" land. I'll read the article though

Personally, I think the way forward is a humanitarian approach rather than a legal one. (We can always bend the law to suit our humanity, don't you think?) That means people have to be able to choose. But it might also mean that those who do not hold loyalty and allegience to their new state should be extradited. It means we solve the problems underlying illegal building, rather than worry about illegal building. And it means that Israel should, unilaterally, take control of those parts of Area C it intends to keep and act accordingly: all the Palestinian cities and villages in those areas get infrastructure just like Israeli cities do (Israel is already quietly doing this); everything gets surveyed and registered and taxes paid, everything not registered to an individual becomes crown land, every area gets a municipal boundary and a building plan which accommodates everyone. Conversely, it also means Israel should unilaterally drop control of those parts of Area C in which it intends not to keep and act accordingly: if you are a Jew and you build there you will get no help or support from Israel. Carrot and stick.

That makes a lot of sense.

 

[montelatici]

Depends on the legality of the settlement don't you think?

Amona:
Amona (Hebrew: עמונה‎‎) was an Israeli outpost in the central West Bank. Located on a hill overlooking Ofra within the municipal boundaries of the Mateh Binyamin Regional Council, the village was founded in 1995 on privately owned Palestinian land. As of 2012, its population was around 200.[1] As of October 2013, the outpost lodged 42 families.[2]

The High Court of Israel ruled in 2006 that the settlement is illegal under Israeli law,[3] but as of March 2013, its status remained unresolved as the Israeli government continued to fight the court's eviction order. In May 2014 an Israeli police investigation revealed the entire outpost lay on private Palestinian land, and that documents used by settlers to claim they had purchased the sites were forged.[4] In December 2014, the Israeli High Court ordered the state to completely evacuate and demolish the settlement within two years.[5] The international community considers all Israeli settlements in the West Bank illegal under international law.[6]

I think a better comparison would be the expulsion of Jews from Arab lands.

Or, looking into the future - if a two state solution were negotiated with land swaps - forceably people from either side would be a crime - they should be given the choice of staying and accepting a new citizenship.

I think we have to be very careful when we use phrases like "privately owned Palestinian land" as it carries a MUCH different context here in the west. Our vision is that Jewish people knocked on the door of a Palestinian family one day and told them to get out. Or that they burned down a bunch of someone else's olive trees to make way for their own. Or whatever. In reality, land laws in Area C are a complex interplay between Ottoman laws, Jordanian laws and Israeli laws. And if land is not designated as officially "crown lands" it carries the designation of "private Palestinian land" even if that land was unused, had no claimants to it and no had paid taxes on it. Here is a good article on it.

Personally, I think the way forward is a humanitarian approach rather than a legal one. (We can always bend the law to suit our humanity, don't you think?) That means people have to be able to choose. But it might also mean that those who do not hold loyalty and allegience to their new state should be extradited. It means we solve the problems underlying illegal building, rather than worry about illegal building. And it means that Israel should, unilaterally, take control of those parts of Area C it intends to keep and act accordingly: all the Palestinian cities and villages in those areas get infrastructure just like Israeli cities do (Israel is already quietly doing this); everything gets surveyed and registered and taxes paid, everything not registered to an individual becomes crown land, every area gets a municipal boundary and a building plan which accommodates everyone. Conversely, it also means Israel should unilaterally drop control of those parts of Area C in which it intends not to keep and act accordingly: if you are a Jew and you build there you will get no help or support from Israel. Carrot and stick.

Again, that's why it is impossible to discuss issues with Zionists, they make things up. The facts don't line up with their myth so they find propaganda that tries to deny the facts to suit their positions.

Private land was private land, owned by private people from the time of the British Land Reform Act of 1928.

The Land Settlement Ordinance was introduced in 1928. Rights of ownership were confirmed only after a land and tax survey was completed. The registration of land was made in the names of specific individuals and not in the name of the village, the family, or the tribe. Public land remained public land.

 

[Coyote]

I notice also that some anti-Palestinianists (such as Rhodescholar) call for that as a solution to the Palestinian issue. What are your thoughts on that?

The arab muslims have FIFTY-SEVEN muslim countries to move to, the jews have none. There is a long history of mis-treatment of jews across the christian and muslim worlds, given that the muslims have treated jews horrendously they cannot complain that after 14 centuries of such that they have a say in the creation of a tiny speck of land the jews can call "home." There is no comparison between the 2,000 year old claims of the jews and the 3-decade claim of the fakestinians, none.

Religion alone doesn't mean a common culture nor does that reasoning give ANYONE a right to uproot a people and expell them.

 

[montelatici]

There was some Arab immigraton, but by no means were they all immigrants.

Not according to the mentally ill troll monte, he claims there weren't any, so which of you are lying?

Just like there was Jewish immigration from Europe. Do you propose chucking them back to Europe?

The difference being the power in control of the area, first the Brits then the UN, decided to create a jewish homeland - so why would they need to go back to europe when they originaly came from Israel in the first place?

Given that many of them have lived on that piece of land for generations or centuries...

"Centuries" for the druze and a few others, for the vast majority, that's laughable nonsense.

There was some Arab immigraton, but by no means were they all immigrants.

Not according to the mentally ill troll monte, he claims there weren't any, so which of you are lying?

Just like there was Jewish immigration from Europe. Do you propose chucking them back to Europe?

The difference being the power in control of the area, first the Brits then the UN, decided to create a jewish homeland - so why would they need to go back to europe when they originaly came from Israel in the first place?

Given that many of them have lived on that piece of land for generations or centuries...

"Centuries" for the druze and a few others, for the vast majority, that's laughable nonsense.

1. I provide links to the British census figures for immigration. Non-Jewish immigration was minimal. The immigration was overwhelming Zionists from Europe from 1920 to 1946.

2. The Muslims and Christians of Palestine are the descendants of the people that have always lived in Palestine. That they converted to Christianity first and then most Islam later, does not change their ancestry.

 

[Humanity]

There was some Arab immigraton, but by no means were they all immigrants.

Not according to the mentally ill troll monte, he claims there weren't any, so which of you are lying?

Just like there was Jewish immigration from Europe. Do you propose chucking them back to Europe?

The difference being the power in control of the area, first the Brits then the UN, decided to create a jewish homeland - so why would they need to go back to europe when they originaly came from Israel in the first place?

Given that many of them have lived on that piece of land for generations or centuries...

"Centuries" for the druze and a few others, for the vast majority, that's laughable nonsense.

There was some Arab immigraton, but by no means were they all immigrants.

Not according to the mentally ill troll monte, he claims there weren't any, so which of you are lying?

Just like there was Jewish immigration from Europe. Do you propose chucking them back to Europe?

The difference being the power in control of the area, first the Brits then the UN, decided to create a jewish homeland - so why would they need to go back to europe when they originaly came from Israel in the first place?

Given that many of them have lived on that piece of land for generations or centuries...

"Centuries" for the druze and a few others, for the vast majority, that's laughable nonsense.

1. I provide links to the British census figures for immigration. Non-Jewish immigration was minimal. The immigration was overwhelming Zionists from Europe from 1920 to 1946.

View attachment 117946

2. The Muslims and Christians of Palestine are the descendants of the people that have always lived in Palestine. That they converted to Christianity first and then most Islam later, does not change their ancestry.

Just a few questions...

What does this have to do with the topic here?
Do you agree that there are also Jews who are the descendents of the people that have always lived in Palestine?
In what way do you think it relevant in maintaining this argument of immigration on virtually every thread?
It's 2017, is it not time to stop the never ending bickering about 'ancient history' and looking forward, not back?

I'm an immigrant... Choosing to live in a country other than that of my birth... An immigrant 4 times!! I have a birth country but my 'roots', my ancestry comes from several countries! Does that mean I have a claim on those countries?

 

[montelatici]

There was some Arab immigraton, but by no means were they all immigrants.

Not according to the mentally ill troll monte, he claims there weren't any, so which of you are lying?

Just like there was Jewish immigration from Europe. Do you propose chucking them back to Europe?

The difference being the power in control of the area, first the Brits then the UN, decided to create a jewish homeland - so why would they need to go back to europe when they originaly came from Israel in the first place?

Given that many of them have lived on that piece of land for generations or centuries...

"Centuries" for the druze and a few others, for the vast majority, that's laughable nonsense.

There was some Arab immigraton, but by no means were they all immigrants.

Not according to the mentally ill troll monte, he claims there weren't any, so which of you are lying?

Just like there was Jewish immigration from Europe. Do you propose chucking them back to Europe?

The difference being the power in control of the area, first the Brits then the UN, decided to create a jewish homeland - so why would they need to go back to europe when they originaly came from Israel in the first place?

Given that many of them have lived on that piece of land for generations or centuries...

"Centuries" for the druze and a few others, for the vast majority, that's laughable nonsense.

1. I provide links to the British census figures for immigration. Non-Jewish immigration was minimal. The immigration was overwhelming Zionists from Europe from 1920 to 1946.

View attachment 117946

2. The Muslims and Christians of Palestine are the descendants of the people that have always lived in Palestine. That they converted to Christianity first and then most Islam later, does not change their ancestry.

Just a few questions...

What does this have to do with the topic here?
Do you agree that there are also Jews who are the descendents of the people that have always lived in Palestine?
In what way do you think it relevant in maintaining this argument of immigration on virtually every thread?
It's 2017, is it not time to stop the never ending bickering about 'ancient history' and looking forward, not back?

I'm an immigrant... Choosing to live in a country other than that of my birth... An immigrant 4 times!! I have a birth country but my 'roots', my ancestry comes from several countries! Does that mean I have a claim on those countries?

I am getting sick and tired of this crap from you. The whole basis for the position of people like Rhodescholar, is that the Zionist Europeans are indigenous and the Muslim and Christian Palestinians are recent arrivals and should be expelled. If the basic fact that the Christians and Muslims are descendants of the people that have always lived in Palestine undergoing changes in religion they follow, there is no way to have a discussion.

If the Zionist myth were true, i.e. that the Muslims and Christians are newcomers, and that the European Zionists are pure original Jews, then the Zionists should expel the newcomers, they have no business being in Palestine.