What Constitutes a "Right?"

[Kevin_Kennedy]

I'm going to play devil's advocate a little here...

Where does this right to property come from?

The right to property comes from the fact that you work and you earn property. No one can rightfully take from you that which you have worked hard for and earned.

ummm, no...the right to own property comes from the 5th Amendment to the US Constitution, which is law legislated by Congress (elected by the people) for the purpose of creating a just society, governed by the rules THEY ELECT REPRESENTATIVES to create and enact.

FIFTH AMENDMENT [U.S. Constitution] - 'No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb, nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.'

"Rights" are whatever we (the people) decide they are (as a society). Theoretically, we could blame ourselves for the social disaster we're a part of. But that's such a simpleton perspective. The truth is, there will always be that group of people that desire power above all else, and prey on those that don't think very well to achieve their own agendas.

I personally think my generation (baby boomers) are largely to blame for the "me first" attitude in this country. Had that been the case in the 1930's and 1940's, there is no doubt Hitler would have won. The prosperity following WWII spoiled us as a nation, and we boomers felt we were "owed" a comfortable easy life.

So when those same people came into their power years (the 1980s and 90s) that "spoiled" nature reared it's ugly head. Corrupt people advanced to become Presidents, CEOs and Directors of most the major corporations in this country. The deregulation of the 1980s and lack of government oversight/protection allowed big business to effectively hijack government and the legal system with big money, and control monetary policy. If we're EVER going to fix our system, first we will have to take away the rights of corporations to affect legislation (while they are legal entities, they should not have "civil" rights as individuals do).

The Constitution was never meant to give social power to business. Business exists for the benefit of society, not the other way around. Unfortunately, a by-product of capitalism is it's embrace of greed. Don't get me wrong, I AM a capitalist. I believe in a capitalistic approach to business within markets where that system works well. It is NOT, however, the be all and end all of economics. For that, we need a more practical solution in those markets where the "profit" motive simply doesn't work (such as healthcare), and supply and demand are unbalanced. You know the drill, I can decide not to buy a stereo if I feel it's too expensive, but I'm not likely to turn down a heart transplant no matter what the price. So I, for one, think that qualifies as "unbalanced" demand.

So, whatever we, the people, decide we want (or don't want) the government to manage for us is up to us. That doesn't make us "socialist" at all. It makes us "socially responsible" to each other, and is simply a better way to live. (mho).

dangit! rambling again

-sensored

No rights come from the Constitution. The founders believed in natural rights and wrote the Constitution to defend the rights that we as human beings naturally have.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

A "right" is something that you have naturally. You have a right to your life, your liberty, your property, and your personal pursuit of happiness. The word "right" is thrown around too loosely in politics. If you believe you have a right to something then look at the situation deeper. Does your supposed "right" require the government's force to back it up? Does your "right" require the government to take from one person through taxation to supply you with your "right?" If the answer is yes then your "right" is clearly not a right at all because it violates somebody else's right to their own property. You cannot have a right to something that violates somebody else's rights.

Kevin, you are full of shit. There are no 'natural' rights. For most of history, right only belonged to those with might. The Constitution of the United States is most unnatural. And, by being that, it created an atmosphere in which real progress could prosper. If we dedide that we can create universal access to Health Care, then that becomes a right for our citizens. And creates more freedom for the American Citizen.

Our nation was founded on the belief of natural rights so if what you say is true we should have stayed a part of Great Britain. As for healthcare being a right and giving us more freedom, I'd say you're quite mistaken. Freedom doesn't entail the government taking from one person to give to another.

 

[JW Frogen]

A right is what society says it is. There are no "natural" rights.
.

Hobbes would have it so, he was an honest man, but as he shows society soon becomes the Leviathan, a mob, king or tyrant.

I do think the very idea of society reveals there are some universal rights, that we apes have some universal contracts. Some common instinctual needs, needs we demand and want respected.

Still, it is best to read the fine print.

 

[JBeukema]

All rigfhts are positive rights

The law, however, is written with an assumption of 'natural' rights as a key aspect of its nature, so that the State ay not revoke from the People any liberties unless it can be demonstrated to the Peoples' satisfactions that it is necessary for the continuation of the society. Certain liberties ('rights) are spelled out and are ton never be revoked or infringed, while the 9th Amendment makes it clear that the overall concept is that the citizenry has all liberties not specifically denied them (that is, the law is restrictive, not permissive; it restricts, it does not permit).

 

[CommonSensor]

Our nation was founded on the belief of natural rights so if what you say is true we should have stayed a part of Great Britain. As for healthcare being a right and giving us more freedom, I'd say you're quite mistaken. Freedom doesn't entail the government taking from one person to give to another.

YIKES! - Our nation wasn't founded on ANY beliefs at all, let alone natural rights. It was founded on a set of "principles", which were clearly defined and purposeful. If "natural rights" exist, then logic has it, there must be a definition of what the hell they are, and who the hell defined them. That argument ALWAYS turns out the same. They ARE defined, they WERE defined by "we the people" (and amended along the way to accommodate changes in society). Unfortunately, it's all too easy for the financial powers that be to whip up the weak minded via fear and conjecture, and most recently out and out lies and distortions. How hard is it to just look at who's telling you what, and realize that. Anyway....you're being manipulated by big money that doesn't want change. I don't blame THEM for that, it's their nature, and what we should expect. I blame we, yeah, the people for letting it happen, and being so gullible.

-sensored

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Our nation was founded on the belief of natural rights so if what you say is true we should have stayed a part of Great Britain. As for healthcare being a right and giving us more freedom, I'd say you're quite mistaken. Freedom doesn't entail the government taking from one person to give to another.

YIKES! - Our nation wasn't founded on ANY beliefs at all, let alone natural rights. It was founded on a set of "principles", which were clearly defined and purposeful. If "natural rights" exist, then logic has it, there must be a definition of what the hell they are, and who the hell defined them. That argument ALWAYS turns out the same. They ARE defined, they WERE defined by "we the people" (and amended along the way to accommodate changes in society). Unfortunately, it's all too easy for the financial powers that be to whip up the weak minded via fear and conjecture, and most recently out and out lies and distortions. How hard is it to just look at who's telling you what, and realize that. Anyway....you're being manipulated by big money that doesn't want change. I don't blame THEM for that, it's their nature, and what we should expect. I blame we, yeah, the people for letting it happen, and being so gullible.

-sensored

You can say principles or beliefs, it doesn't matter. It doesn't change the fact that the founders believed in natural rights and founded our nation on those. As for healthcare, I'm not being manipulated by anything. I simply understand that it's wrong to take from some people to give to others, and I understand that this is simply another blackhole project for the government to sink our money into.

 

[JW Frogen]

The Founders.

Great, smart men.

Still, one could be forgiven for pondering that ******* a slave woman while penning "all men are created equal" does reveal some form of hypocrisy.

Just maybe?

Or maybe not, he did not pen "all women are created equal".

His pursuit of happiness came at the expense of Sally's.

How bout we found our own ethics away from the founders?

Just a thought.

 

[CommonSensor]

You can say principles or beliefs, it doesn't matter. It doesn't change the fact that the founders believed in natural rights and founded our nation on those. As for healthcare, I'm not being manipulated by anything. I simply understand that it's wrong to take from some people to give to others, and I understand that this is simply another blackhole project for the government to sink our money into.

Of course it matters.

belief
–noun
1. something believed; an opinion or conviction: a belief that the earth is flat.
2. confidence in the truth or existence of something not immediately susceptible to rigorous proof: a statement

principle
–noun
1. an accepted or professed rule of action or conduct: a person of good moral principles.
2. a fundamental, primary, or general law or truth from which others are derived: the principles of modern physics.
3. a fundamental doctrine or tenet; a distinctive ruling opinion: the principles of the Stoics.
4. principles, a personal or specific basis of conduct or management: to adhere to one's principles; a kindergarten run on modern principles.
5. guiding sense of the requirements and obligations of right conduct: a person of principle.
6. an adopted rule or method for application in action: a working principle for general use.

Now if you want to interpret the intentions of the founders through the prism of belief, you're welcome to. I don't presume to know the intentions of the founders in any other way than the Constitution. You play the revisionist, not me.

-sensored

 

[Intense]

Read the words of Adams, Jefferson, Mason, and others- many unkind words for religion in general and xtianity in particular

They called themselves deists because they did not know the word 'atheist'

On what basis do you make the claim that a man as well educated as Thomas Jefferson did not know of the word "atheist?"

The word had been around for over a hundred years by the time of the American Revolution. Why would TJ not have known its meaning or not have even heard of it?

Atheism - Etymology

In a letter to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Jefferson described his views on Jesus and the Christian religion, as well as his own religious beliefs. He appended to this description a Syllabus that compared the teachings of Jesus to those of the earlier Greek and Roman philosophers, and to the religion of the Jews of Jesus' time. This letter and the appended Syllabus are interesting to anyone studying the Jefferson Bible because they explain precisely Jefferson's views which later led him to make the compilation of the moral philosophy of Jesus in the form presented on this website. Both the letter and the Syllabus are presented below, and may be found in the Memorial Edition of Jefferson's Writings, Vol. 10, pg. 379. Following the syllabus is a letter to William Short, which contains further discussion of the syllabus. This letter is found in Vol. 11 of the Memorial Edition, pg. 243.
The Jefferson Bible: Syllabus

 

[Intense]

I'm going to play devil's advocate a little here...

Where does this right to property come from?

The right to property comes from the fact that you work and you earn property. No one can rightfully take from you that which you have worked hard for and earned.

ummm, no...the right to own property comes from the 5th Amendment to the US Constitution, which is law legislated by Congress (elected by the people) for the purpose of creating a just society, governed by the rules THEY ELECT REPRESENTATIVES to create and enact.

FIFTH AMENDMENT [U.S. Constitution] - 'No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb, nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use without just compensation.'

"Rights" are whatever we (the people) decide they are (as a society). Theoretically, we could blame ourselves for the social disaster we're a part of. But that's such a simpleton perspective. The truth is, there will always be that group of people that desire power above all else, and prey on those that don't think very well to achieve their own agendas.

I personally think my generation (baby boomers) are largely to blame for the "me first" attitude in this country. Had that been the case in the 1930's and 1940's, there is no doubt Hitler would have won. The prosperity following WWII spoiled us as a nation, and we boomers felt we were "owed" a comfortable easy life.

So when those same people came into their power years (the 1980s and 90s) that "spoiled" nature reared it's ugly head. Corrupt people advanced to become Presidents, CEOs and Directors of most the major corporations in this country. The deregulation of the 1980s and lack of government oversight/protection allowed big business to effectively hijack government and the legal system with big money, and control monetary policy. If we're EVER going to fix our system, first we will have to take away the rights of corporations to affect legislation (while they are legal entities, they should not have "civil" rights as individuals do).

The Constitution was never meant to give social power to business. Business exists for the benefit of society, not the other way around. Unfortunately, a by-product of capitalism is it's embrace of greed. Don't get me wrong, I AM a capitalist. I believe in a capitalistic approach to business within markets where that system works well. It is NOT, however, the be all and end all of economics. For that, we need a more practical solution in those markets where the "profit" motive simply doesn't work (such as healthcare), and supply and demand are unbalanced. You know the drill, I can decide not to buy a stereo if I feel it's too expensive, but I'm not likely to turn down a heart transplant no matter what the price. So I, for one, think that qualifies as "unbalanced" demand.

So, whatever we, the people, decide we want (or don't want) the government to manage for us is up to us. That doesn't make us "socialist" at all. It makes us "socially responsible" to each other, and is simply a better way to live. (mho).

dangit! rambling again

-sensored

I totally agree with your sentiment, and support it.

Rights existed before The Constitution. They were born within Us inside or outside of Society. The 5th Amendment Recognizes those rights, clarifies it for those that do not yet realize it, but it is not the source. To change the Law puts it in conflict with the Laws that govern creation. It can be done, .....with consequence. Law that serves Justice Compliments.

 

[Intense]

A "right" is something that you have naturally. You have a right to your life, your liberty, your property, and your personal pursuit of happiness. The word "right" is thrown around too loosely in politics. If you believe you have a right to something then look at the situation deeper. Does your supposed "right" require the government's force to back it up? Does your "right" require the government to take from one person through taxation to supply you with your "right?" If the answer is yes then your "right" is clearly not a right at all because it violates somebody else's right to their own property. You cannot have a right to something that violates somebody else's rights.

Kevin, you are full of shit. There are no 'natural' rights. For most of history, right only belonged to those with might. The Constitution of the United States is most unnatural. And, by being that, it created an atmosphere in which real progress could prosper. If we dedide that we can create universal access to Health Care, then that becomes a right for our citizens. And creates more freedom for the American Citizen.

Old Rocks, You are full of shit, as I sit here Reading evidence of what you deny and yet draw from to articulate your post, I worry about you. You exist in or out of society. Are you defenseless in the woods, or any where you are alone? Do you have ability only to act, defend, maintain, service, create, develop only within the bound of Government Instruction? Get Your head out of your ass, if that is the case, and make a stand, man. Even the Animals of the field don't ask for Government sanction to defend what is their own, be it Life, or habitat. Government is Not God.

 

[Intense]

Remember, Jesus (both the biblical and the American) preached the separation of Church and State

Indeed he did.

Render unto Ceasar that which, well, that which Ceasar is going to take anyway.

I am not mocking, the constant piggy bank penny count will shrink a soul faster than Lady Gaga can gag on her lack of talent and her growing piggy bank.

I have nothing against money, indeed it can visit my any time, but I will be God damed if I think about it all the time, or live for it.

I want more.

Ditto.

 

[Intense]

The Founders.

Great, smart men.

Still, one could be forgiven for pondering that ******* a slave woman while penning "all men are created equal" does reveal some form of hypocrisy.

Just maybe?

Or maybe not, he did not pen "all women are created equal".

His pursuit of happiness came at the expense of Sally's.

How bout we found our own ethics away from the founders?

Just a thought.

Do you actually suggest that We apply Principle and Reason Today, living in the Present, to determine Our own Will? Have you read any of the Posts on this Board? Are You Crazy? The Herd is heading for the Cliff Pa... We can't stop Them!!!

The first thing the majority would do is enslave the minority, the second thing would be to start a purging cycle to keep the truth at bay, and all the loyal sheep in line. Tyranny rises like shit. Doesn't even matter what the excuse is any more.

 

[CommonSensor]

The Founders.

Great, smart men.

Still, one could be forgiven for pondering that ******* a slave woman while penning "all men are created equal" does reveal some form of hypocrisy.

Just maybe?

Or maybe not, he did not pen "all women are created equal".

His pursuit of happiness came at the expense of Sally's.

How bout we found our own ethics away from the founders?

Just a thought.

lol jw, someday you're going to have to teach me how to say so much with so few words! tks...

 

[Contumacious]

A right is what society says it is. There are no "natural" rights.
.

That is true............in a FASCIST REPUBLIC

"...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone.... "

Benito Mussolini:


Diuretic's stupid comment should constitute prima facie evidence that we should NEVER allow the government to disarm us - hold on to your weapons for dear life !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

 

[Intense]

A right is what society says it is. There are no "natural" rights.
.

That is true............in a FASCIST REPUBLIC

"...The Fascist State organizes the nation, but leaves a sufficient margin of liberty to the individual; the latter is deprived of all useless and possibly harmful freedom, but retains what is essential; the deciding power in this question cannot be the individual, but the State alone.... "

Benito Mussolini:


Diuretic's stupid comment should constitute prima facie evidence that we should NEVER allow the government to disarm us - hold on to your weapons for dear life !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

That is only because Fascists are Lazy when compared to Totalitarians,

 

[JBeukema]

Noone has EVER demonstrated that 'natural rights' exist

Also, Cuntumacious , if you fail to understand that 'the society' = 'the People', you're even more retarded than i ever guessed

'
the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."'
= 'you fuckers we elect will not take our guns; if you try, we will shoot you'

 

[Intense]

Noone has EVER demonstrated that 'natural rights' exist

Also, Cuntumacious , if you fail to understand that 'the society' = 'the People', you're even more retarded than i ever guessed

'
the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."'
= 'you fuckers we elect will not take our guns; if you try, we will shoot you'

I can find natural right, on the street, in the subway, at the zoo, I need merely open my eyes and free my mind. There is Natural Order, and there is that which obstructs.

 

[JBeukema]

You're speaking a lot of really bad philosphy, but you've demonstrated nothing

enumerate and demonstrate all the rights which are natural to Man

until you do, shut the **** up with your ignorant bullshit

 

[JBeukema]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/80925-demonstrating-natural-rights.html