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Exactly! Once more Jesus speaks of forgiveness. He lived and gave his entire life--poured out his blood--over his mission to proclaim forgiveness (not punishment) of sins. His life, blood, teachings poured forth the message of repentance for the forgiveness of sins; that we should discern the will of God and be obedient to it.
Catholics believe in the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Forgiveness of sins is in his blood and is also in our blood through the life he gives and his life he shares through the Eucharist.
Is this the verse so many use for their belief that Jesus had to be punished? Still, I suppose the central message still holds whether one believes sins are forgiven by turning from/repenting of them...or whether they believe sins are forgiven because Jesus was punished for all sin?
Exactly! Once more Jesus speaks of forgiveness. He lived and gave his entire life--poured out his blood--over his mission to proclaim forgiveness (not punishment) of sins. His life, blood, teachings poured forth the message of repentance for the forgiveness of sins; that we should discern the will of God and be obedient to it.
Catholics believe in the True Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. Forgiveness of sins is in his blood and is also in our blood through the life he gives and his life he shares through the Eucharist.
Is this the verse so many use for their belief that Jesus had to be punished? Still, I suppose the central message still holds whether one believes sins are forgiven by turning from/repenting of them...or whether they believe sins are forgiven because Jesus was punished for all sin?
Belief in Jesus is that he is the Word of God, and the word of God was Repentance for the forgiveness of sin--(i.e. turn away from disobedience to obedience to God); discern the will of God and follow it.John 3:3
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
That cup was his suffering and death. He had enemies who were not in agreement with the Word he proclaimed. They wanted him gone.Matthew 26:42
He went away a second time and prayed, “My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done.”
What do you think that cup was?
(Red emphasis mine.) Again, nothing about punishment being required. It was all about spreading the Good News that sins ARE forgiven.45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things. 49 I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
There are many appealing aspects of Christianity:I believe the appeal and success of Christianity is that it addresses all of what mankind has in common. While we all hold much in common, we do lead unique, personal lives. Christianity addresses how its common truths can be applied to each personal and unique life.
You noted you were a non-Christianity who sees Christianity from the outside. If this is how outsiders see Christianity, it is fortunate I was born within!There are many appealing aspects of Christianity:
- The promise that God takes a personal interest in us
- The promise that God listens to our prayers
- The promise that we may become immortal
- The promise that we may dwell in heaven forever
- Access to a community of like-minded individuals (very important in the early days of Christianity as the help of fellow Christians lead to better health)
Belief in Jesus is that he is the Word of God, and the word of God was Repentance for the forgiveness of sin--(i.e. turn away from disobedience to obedience to God); discern the will of God and follow it.
Remember, 'wrath' describes human emotion and is a human description. God is beyond that, more on the order that God is so good that evil cannot exist in His presence. This can be likened to darkness cannot exist in sunlight. It has nothing to do with emotions of wrath from the sun towards darkness. Evil cannot exist where Good is present. Therefore if we are filled with sin and disobedience towards God, we cannot have life in God, we cannot exist in His presence.
(Red emphasis mine.) Again, nothing about punishment being required. It was all about spreading the Good News that sins ARE forgiven.
I don't understand why so many seem to believe that God is more about punishment than about forgiveness.
You can't have missed my position! Nor is that last sentence a reflection of "feelings!" It is a question. Can you answer it? Where does scripture--or even Jesus himself say, "God needs to punish me before He can forgive the sins of all the rest of mankind"?And that last sentence? There it is. You have no counter, so return to your own feelings.
That is neither the definition nor the etymology of wrath, neither in the secular nor Biblical usage.Wrath is not "emotion". It is evil vs. goodness; good vs. evil.
You can't have missed my position! Nor is that last sentence a reflection of "feelings!" It is a question. Can you answer it? Where does scripture--or even Jesus himself say, "God needs to punish me before He can forgive the sins of all the rest of mankind"?
In case you did forget my position: Jesus was proclaiming repentance for the forgiveness of sins; and teaching us to discern and follow the will of God. Political people of his day told him to cease and desist, but Jesus continued with this mission. They had him put to death. Jesus seemed to know his death over this matter would produce a great harvest of people who did turn from their sins and who worked to discern the will of God and follow it.
In addition, Old Testament scripture relates that Moses foretold of a greater prophet than he. Moses presented God's written Law--and Jesus did the same, presenting the spirit of God's Law.
Was there any Old Testament Prophet foretelling that punishment would befall one man so that all of mankind could be forgiven of all sins?
That is neither the definition nor the etymology of wrath, neither in the secular nor Biblical usage.
Remember my post noted that while scripture authors assign emotions to God, Jewish rabbis explain that human emotions cannot be assigned to God--but they are used to paint a picture of God's reaction to evil. In other words, I said the exact opposite, noting there was no emotion in gravity when bones are broken because someone decides to leap from a high place. I noted that God is so Good that evil cannot exist in the presence of that pure goodness. I compared it to dark not being able to exist in sunlight.Oh.
So you have determined that the wrath of God is simply.....emotional?
Who shed Jesus' blood? It is my understanding it was Roman soldiers and that it was their punishment for sedition. Or can this be seen as God arranging Jesus' crucifixion, and the Romans were merely puppets of God? Remember, King David arranged for Uriah's blood to be shed. Was Uriah being punished? Cain killed Abel. Was Abel being punished?It's down to whether you consider the shedding of blood to be punishment.
I do, because it is throughout the Scriptures.
well?
Who shed Jesus' blood? It is my understanding it was Roman soldiers and that it was their punishment for sedition. Or can this be seen as God arranging Jesus' crucifixion, and the Romans were merely puppets of God? Remember, King David arranged for Uriah's blood to be shed. Was Uriah being punished? Cain killed Abel. Was Abel being punished?
God's forgiveness is a constant theme in the Old Testament. Even when Israel played the harlot, God's love remained constant. There were blood sacrifices to God, symbolizing one's life force (blood) being offered to God. Indeed, Jesus did offer his blood/his life to the Father. It was a great sacrifice, his life freely given to God so that all might have atonement (at-one-ment) with God through repenting of wrong doing and by discerning the will of God and following it.
My thoughts remain: Why the belief that Jesus had to be punished before sins were forgiven? That a single punishment of a single man was needed before God could forgive the billions of sins of billions of people? Do you feel it mandatory that you believe this?
greetingsWhy not finish Phil. 2 and stay in context according to the subject matter.....why stop at Phil. 2:5?Finish the text, read the very next line forward.........."Who (Jesus) being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made Himself of no reputation and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in the fashion as man, He humbled Himself and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also (also....in addition, more than 1) hath highly exalted Him, and given Him a name which is above every name: (and that name is not Jehovah, a misapplied German translation for God....that name is Jesus Christ that is above every name, as explained in the very next verse.) THAT AT THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW, OF THINGS IN HEAVEN, AND THINGS IN EARTH, AND THINGS UNDER THE EARTH." -- Phil 2:6-10)
Why do you not continue to read but cherry pick verses away from the contextual integrity of the Book, Chapter and Verse? Because when the context and subject matter is considered as a whole..........it contradicts a great many false doctrines made up by men pretending to be religious.
What's next........reading from your own version of the Bible? Declaring certain texts are made in error.......but your new Book is correct this time......since God failed the on His first attempt when He declared His words would never fail? "Heaven and earth shall pass away but My Words shall not pass away." -- Matthew 24:35
Beware of any cult that claims to be in possession of NEW REVELATIONS from God..........from 600 - 2000 years after He delivered the "Perfect Law of Liberty" to mankind (James 1:25) The faith having been delivered ONCE unto the saints of the 1st century. -- Jude 3
Why would God......deliver MORE REVELATIONS when He stated (by inspiration of the Spirit of Truth, That man has everything that pertains to life and godliness through the revelations of Jesus Christ? -- 2 Peter 1:3
The Kingdom of God........is a spiritual kingdom, not a physical kingdom, it cannot be observed because the kingdom resides entirely within the believer. (Luke 17:20-21). Man will never be gods.......because God is a spiritual being (John 4:24)....and as such man must worship God in Spirit (that which resides within every man, as it reflects the image of God -- Genesis 1:27) and we are commanded to be "sanctified" in the TRUTH .....which is the word of God (John 17:17)greetings
I only can give you these words
we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing.
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God.
For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so, no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.
1 Cor 2:6-11 (NKJV)
Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual things.
Now the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually judged.
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, and he himself is judged of no man.
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Cor 2:13-16 (ASV)
but wisdom teacheth, but which the Spirit teacheth; combining spiritual things with spiritual words.
