We Were Right to Drop the Bomb

[there4eyeM]

Um, yeah... that's the point of bombing, to create as much fear and destruction as possible.

But again, you are putting existential dread that we feel today about nukes on people who had already endured six years of global war and had become kind of numb to it.

Wouldn't that mean that bombing is terrorism?

 

[mikegriffith1]

I would compare denying the immorality of nuking Japan to Holocaust denial. The facts are that obvious. It just boils down to whether one is willing to acknowledge their clear meaning.

 

[mikegriffith1]

Um, yeah... that's the point of bombing, to create as much fear and destruction as possible.

Uh, well, gee, that may be how Joseph Stalin and Mao Tse Tung viewed the point of bombing, but that's not how a civilized nation views it. You don't bomb civilians, period, and you especially don't bomb them to destroy and to terrorize the surviving civilians. That's not warfare. That's murder.

You simply ignored the point that we could have destroyed the meaningless military facility in Hiroshima with conventional bombing. The same goes for the factories in Hiroshima, most of which were on the outskirts of the city (and since we aimed the nuke for the heart of the city, most of the factories were not destroyed, precisely because they were on the outskirts of the city).

Denying the immorality of nuking Japan is as bad as Holocaust denial. The facts are that obvious. It just boils down to whether one is willing to acknowledge their clear meaning.

 

[gipper]

Uh, well, gee, that may be how Joseph Stalin and Mao Tse Tung viewed the point of bombing, but that's not how a civilized nation views it. You don't bomb civilians, period, and you especially don't bomb them to destroy and to terrorize the surviving civilians. That's not warfare. That's murder.

You simply ignored the point that we could have destroyed the meaningless military facility in Hiroshima with conventional bombing. The same goes for the factories in Hiroshima, most of which were on the outskirts of the city (and since we aimed the nuke for the heart of the city, most of the factories were not destroyed, precisely because they were on the outskirts of the city).

Denying the immorality of nuking Japan is as bad as Holocaust denial. The facts are that obvious. It just boils down to whether one is willing to acknowledge their clear meaning.

You’re fighting an uphill battle and I suspect you know it. Most Americans only know what their government and it’s jesters have told them about the A-bombings. So naturally, they’re completely uninformed and duped.

Imagine if every high school student in the country was required to read your book. I’m reading it now, but I already knew much of the truth. However you really drive it home.

This belief by many Americans that total war is acceptable, is appalling. The mass murdering of innocent civilians by our military continues to this day, without much criticism. It’s shameful.

 

[JoeB131]

Uh, well, gee, that may be how Joseph Stalin and Mao Tse Tung viewed the point of bombing, but that's not how a civilized nation views it. You don't bomb civilians, period, and you especially don't bomb them to destroy and to terrorize the surviving civilians. That's not warfare. That's murder.

Except Mao and Stalin didn't do carpet bombing of other countries...that's our thing. Japan wasn't even out last victim. We dropped more bombs on Vietnam than we dropped on the Axis, and funny thing, they never learned to love Coca-Cola.

You simply ignored the point that we could have destroyed the meaningless military facility in Hiroshima with conventional bombing. The same goes for the factories in Hiroshima, most of which were on the outskirts of the city (and since we aimed the nuke for the heart of the city, most of the factories were not destroyed, precisely because they were on the outskirts of the city).

Again, you work on the assumption that the nuke was seen with the dread and awe we see Nukes with today. People at the time didn't see it that way. It was just another weapon. Period.

Denying the immorality of nuking Japan is as bad as Holocaust denial. The facts are that obvious. It just boils down to whether one is willing to acknowledge their clear meaning.

It's fun to watch you Fascists turn into a hippy drum circle.

The thing is, again, your view is skewed by living in 2021.

For most your lifetime (and mine, and I'm probably older than you), we were told the Nazis were the epitome of evil, and the War with Japan was just unfortunate. It's why Casablanca has survived as a "classic", while those anti-Japanese films with white actors in Yellow-face have been largely banned.

At the time, our propagandists made a distinction between "Good German" and "Nazis", while the Japanese were all sub-human monsters. Of course, the Good Germans fought to the last old man and little boy for Hitler, while the Japanese realized that the war was lost and surrendered to avoid more bloodshed.

But after being fed four years of propaganda like this....

....nobody at the time thought twice about nuking Japan. Some people even wondered why we only dropped two atom bombs on them. (Because that was all we had, actually).

 

[JoeB131]

Wouldn't that mean that bombing is terrorism?

Why, yes. Yes, it would.

Another great film, called "The Battle of Algiers" - an Algerian/Italian co-production, the French have caught a rebel leader and are parading him in front of the French Press.

They ask him, "Why do you put bombs in women's baskets?" and he responds, "Why do you drop bombs from airplanes? We'll happily trade our baskets for planes."

 

[gipper]

Except Mao and Stalin didn't do carpet bombing of other countries...that's our thing. Japan wasn't even out last victim. We dropped more bombs on Vietnam than we dropped on the Axis, and funny thing, they never learned to love Coca-Cola.



Again, you work on the assumption that the nuke was seen with the dread and awe we see Nukes with today. People at the time didn't see it that way. It was just another weapon. Period.




It's fun to watch you Fascists turn into a hippy drum circle.

The thing is, again, your view is skewed by living in 2021.

For most your lifetime (and mine, and I'm probably older than you), we were told the Nazis were the epitome of evil, and the War with Japan was just unfortunate. It's why Casablanca has survived as a "classic", while those anti-Japanese films with white actors in Yellow-face have been largely banned.

At the time, our propagandists made a distinction between "Good German" and "Nazis", while the Japanese were all sub-human monsters. Of course, the Good Germans fought to the last old man and little boy for Hitler, while the Japanese realized that the war was lost and surrendered to avoid more bloodshed.

But after being fed four years of propaganda like this....

View attachment 539052

....nobody at the time thought twice about nuking Japan. Some people even wondered why we only dropped two atom bombs on them. (Because that was all we had, actually).

That’s a flawed opinion Joe. Just because Americans thought nuking Japan was acceptable at the time, doesn’t make it right. Nearly all Americans had no idea of the destruction and consequences of the nukes. Secondly as you point out, Americans had been propagandize to believe the Japanese were subhuman and deserving of mass death…funny thing about that. Hitler and the Nazis thought the same of the Jews and Slavs.

At any rate, mass murdering defenseless civilians is never acceptable. It is a war crime. Truman is no different than Hitler, Stalin, or Mao.

 

[JoeB131]

That’s a flawed opinion Joe. Just because Americans thought nuking Japan was acceptable at the time, doesn’t make it right. Nearly all Americans had no idea of the destruction and consequences of the nukes. Secondly as you point out, Americans had been propagandize to believe the Japanese were subhuman and deserving of mass death…funny thing about that. Hitler and the Nazis thought the same of the Jews and Slavs.

At any rate, mass murdering defenseless civilians is never acceptable. It is a war crime. Truman is no different than Hitler, Stalin, or Mao.

Okay, you keep telling yourself that, man.

70 million people died in WWII. The Japanese inflicted death all across Asia to the point the rest of Asia still hates them. The Rape of Nanking (Oh, wait, Mormon Mike thinks that wasn't so bad) and the Bataan Death March, you aren't going to find a lot of Chinese or Filipinos wringing their hands about Hiroshima.

War sucks. We didn't start this one.

 

[gipper]

Okay, you keep telling yourself that, man.

70 million people died in WWII. The Japanese inflicted death all across Asia to the point the rest of Asia still hates them. The Rape of Nanking (Oh, wait, Mormon Mike thinks that wasn't so bad) and the Bataan Death March, you aren't going to find a lot of Chinese or Filipinos wringing their hands about Hiroshima.

War sucks. We didn't start this one.

So, you’re position is since the Japanese committed terrible atrocities against civilians and started the war, the US is justified in mass murdering the Japanese people. I think not. Your thinking is that of a grade schooler. Immature and ignorant.

 

[JoeB131]

So, you’re position is since the Japanese committed terrible atrocities against civilians and started the war, the US is justified in mass murdering the Japanese people. I think not. Your thinking is that of a grade schooler. Immature and ignorant.

Um, yeah, when you commit crimes against peace and humanity, you should fully expect to get bombed.

We didn't start this fight, the Axis Powers did.

We did finish it.

 

[gipper]

Um, yeah, when you commit crimes against peace and humanity, you should fully expect to get bombed.

We didn't start this fight, the Axis Powers did.

We did finish it.

Terribly ignorant. Apparently you’re unaware the Japanese people had no control over the actions of their government. As such my son, they shouldn’t be held responsible for the actions of their government. Our government mass murdering defenseless Japanese women and children who weren’t responsible for their government’s atrocities, is a war crime.

Think before posting.

You like to claim you aren’t a racist, but your illogical hatred of the Japanese people would seem to indicate otherwise.

 

[elektra]

Sad, that the idiots never give up.

The two atomic bombs ended the Pacific War.
Did people die, yes, of course. But, it is a Nation that goes to war, sadly those women and children are a part of the war. They are intermingled amongst the industry, their homes within walking distance of the factories that make war. Their homes within walking distance of the docks that repair ships. Their homes within walking distance of Army and Navy headquarters.

In total war, there is no save haven for innocents. That is simply a sad fact of war.

 

[Unkotare]

...

The two atomic bombs ended the Pacific War.
....

"the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender."
- Admiral William Leahy, White House chief of staff and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the war

 

[Unkotare]

...

In total war, there is no save haven for innocents. That is simply a sad fact of war.

"I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."

 

[gipper]

Sad, that the idiots never give up.

The two atomic bombs ended the Pacific War.
Did people die, yes, of course. But, it is a Nation that goes to war, sadly those women and children are a part of the war. They are intermingled amongst the industry, their homes within walking distance of the factories that make war. Their homes within walking distance of the docks that repair ships. Their homes within walking distance of Army and Navy headquarters.

In total war, there is no save haven for innocents. That is simply a sad fact of war.

Wrong. Total war is a war crime. Wake the fuck up.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Most of the Japanese leadership knew Japan could not win the war. If that is true what then was Japan's strategy, and how would that strategy fit into operation Olympic and Coronet, and finally the A bomb?

The Japanese government's strategy was simple, drown the invaders in an ocean of Japanese and American blood and hope that the American voters would force the government to give Japan a favorable peace deal.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Japan was subdued. No further ground action on any large scale was needed. As with many other aspects of WWII, mistakes in strategy and goals lead to terrible losses without proportionate gain. Propaganda still insists on a version that puts Hiroshima and Nagasaki in a light that spares the US.

So what would you do? Blockade Japan so hundreds of thousands or even millions of Japanese civilians starved to death? All the while the Japanese Army would be killing more hundreds of thousands Chinese, Burmese, Vietnamese and Malaysian civilians? Plus all the Allied POWS being beaten and starved to death in Japanese POW and forced labor camps?

 

[AZrailwhale]

The victors write the history books and life was cheap during the 2nd war to end all wars. The insanity that surfaced and prevailed among the Allies half way into the "world war" was that it was a legitimate concept that the mass killing of "enemy" civilians was a factor in winning the war. Was Paul Fussell aware that the Bushido Japanese holdouts were desperate to negotiate terms of surrender with the U.S. and desperate egghead scientists were pressuring the administration to test their monstrosity on real (sub human) people? Meanwhile president Harry Truman was under some sort of mystical pressure from his former dead boss to refuse to talk about terms of surrender with the Japanese other than unconditional surrender. Meanwhile the Japanese were trying desperately to negotiate terms of surrender with freaking Stalin. Ironically the most important term in Japanese surrender was the preservation of the Japanese emperor and the guarantee of not executing him and that happened anyway after the former clothing store owner who found himself president without a clue authorized the incineration of two Japanese cities.

The only official Japanese offer was a return to status quo ante December 5th 1941. No war crimes trials and the Japanese got to oversee whatever disarmament they decided to do. All the other offers were from individuals who had no power in the government and no authority to make offers in the first place.

 

[gipper]

So what would you do? Blockade Japan so hundreds of thousands or even millions of Japanese civilians starved to death? All the while the Japanese Army would be killing more hundreds of thousands Chinese, Burmese, Vietnamese and Malaysian civilians? Plus all the Allied POWS being beaten and starved to death in Japanese POW and forced labor camps?

One thing is for sure, nuking a defenseless nation trying to surrender mass murdering thousands of innocent women and children, is a war crime.

 

[elektra]

"the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender."
- Admiral William Leahy, White House chief of staff and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the war

Yet surrender they did not. Leahy never spoke against using the bomb during the war. Certainly after Hiroshima Leahy could object. But he did not. Leahy is Navy, Certainly he did not want the Army to win the war.