We can't run at this rate...

[saveliberty]

The combat military commitment in Afghanistan will end in 2014 and already is winding down - there is no crises except for those who mistakenly believed in the past that pouring money into the DD Budget would make the nation stronger when in reality it has only made the nation as a whole weaker.

Massive cuts in military expenditures can easily be budgeted with the same results and greater efficiency than the present while insuring the safety of the country at its present level.

Certain people only understand massive force. Placing yourself in position of weakness invites attack. Feel free to live in Canada if you want a lower state of readiness.

 

[Truthmatters]

why didnt Bush do that with these wars, he started them.

Truth the former president actually started the war in Afghanistan in a very smart way with using a combination of SpecOps and CIA forces to partner with local forces to root out and destroy Al-Quida and let the locals handle internal issues with Taliban. Then as the focus shifted towards Iraq, there was a shift around 2004 to the "nation building" Doctrine whereby the former Administration would seek to use US Military forces in conjunction with local forces to not only do the above but also to rebuild, train and do a number of tasks not normally associated with what the US Military is good at doing, like building schools, roads, hospitals, local Govt. support. The problem there is you then begin to get invloved with an ancient culture and its rooted issues between tribes and then they begin to see you as the problem and not the solution. The current Administration just carried that policy forward.

and in so doing killed Osama.

Want to know why no one is history has succeded in Afganistan.

two words.

Terrain and stoneage.

The people live a staonage exsistance and the terrrain is nothing but rugged mountains.

 

[Navy1960]

why didnt Bush do that with these wars, he started them.

Truth the former president actually started the war in Afghanistan in a very smart way with using a combination of SpecOps and CIA forces to partner with local forces to root out and destroy Al-Quida and let the locals handle internal issues with Taliban. Then as the focus shifted towards Iraq, there was a shift around 2004 to the "nation building" Doctrine whereby the former Administration would seek to use US Military forces in conjunction with local forces to not only do the above but also to rebuild, train and do a number of tasks not normally associated with what the US Military is good at doing, like building schools, roads, hospitals, local Govt. support. The problem there is you then begin to get invloved with an ancient culture and its rooted issues between tribes and then they begin to see you as the problem and not the solution. The current Administration just carried that policy forward.

and in so doing killed Osama.

Want to know why no one is history has succeded in Afganistan.

two words.

Terrain and stoneage.

The people live a staonage exsistance and the terrrain is nothing but rugged mountains.

Agreed, it's why one of the things I have said is that the day we leave Afghanistan it will be as if we were never there, save for the really neat bases we built. Your correct though as a Tribal culture that has been the bain of such powers from the ancient Persians, Alexander, Britian, Soviet Union, and now us, one would think we should have given that a little thought before embarking on this "nation building" policy there.

 

[saveliberty]

Our footprint in Afghanistan will be erased in three or four years.

 

[California Girl]

why didnt Bush do that with these wars, he started them.

Truth the former president actually started the war in Afghanistan in a very smart way with using a combination of SpecOps and CIA forces to partner with local forces to root out and destroy Al-Quida and let the locals handle internal issues with Taliban. Then as the focus shifted towards Iraq, there was a shift around 2004 to the "nation building" Doctrine whereby the former Administration would seek to use US Military forces in conjunction with local forces to not only do the above but also to rebuild, train and do a number of tasks not normally associated with what the US Military is good at doing, like building schools, roads, hospitals, local Govt. support. The problem there is you then begin to get invloved with an ancient culture and its rooted issues between tribes and then they begin to see you as the problem and not the solution. The current Administration just carried that policy forward.

and in so doing killed Osama.

Want to know why no one is history has succeded in Afganistan.

two words.

Terrain and stoneage.

The people live a staonage exsistance and the terrrain is nothing but rugged mountains.

Actually, it is slightly more than 'rugged mountains'. But you've never been one to stick to the facts.

 

[California Girl]

Truth the former president actually started the war in Afghanistan in a very smart way with using a combination of SpecOps and CIA forces to partner with local forces to root out and destroy Al-Quida and let the locals handle internal issues with Taliban. Then as the focus shifted towards Iraq, there was a shift around 2004 to the "nation building" Doctrine whereby the former Administration would seek to use US Military forces in conjunction with local forces to not only do the above but also to rebuild, train and do a number of tasks not normally associated with what the US Military is good at doing, like building schools, roads, hospitals, local Govt. support. The problem there is you then begin to get invloved with an ancient culture and its rooted issues between tribes and then they begin to see you as the problem and not the solution. The current Administration just carried that policy forward.

and in so doing killed Osama.

Want to know why no one is history has succeded in Afganistan.

two words.

Terrain and stoneage.

The people live a staonage exsistance and the terrrain is nothing but rugged mountains.

Agreed, it's why one of the things I have said is that the day we leave Afghanistan it will be as if we were never there, save for the really neat bases we built. Your correct though as a Tribal culture that has been the bain of such powers from the ancient Persians, Alexander, Britian, Soviet Union, and now us, one would think we should have given that a little thought before embarking on this "nation building" policy there.

There's a really good book that I would highly recommend.... Butchers and Bolt by David Loyns.

Butcher and Bolt - Blackwell's Bookshop Online

It's on the recommended reading list for a few of the officers training courses at Leavenworth. I've read it... it's a fascinating read.

 

[Navy1960]

and in so doing killed Osama.

Want to know why no one is history has succeded in Afganistan.

two words.

Terrain and stoneage.

The people live a staonage exsistance and the terrrain is nothing but rugged mountains.

Agreed, it's why one of the things I have said is that the day we leave Afghanistan it will be as if we were never there, save for the really neat bases we built. Your correct though as a Tribal culture that has been the bain of such powers from the ancient Persians, Alexander, Britian, Soviet Union, and now us, one would think we should have given that a little thought before embarking on this "nation building" policy there.

There's a really good book that I would highly recommend.... Butchers and Bolt by David Loyns.

Butcher and Bolt - Blackwell's Bookshop Online

It's on the recommended reading list for a few of the officers training courses at Leavenworth. I've read it... it's a fascinating read.

Speaking of that , I have to find it there is a lot of good reading from the U.S. Naval War College on this subject.

 

[candycorn]

Wish you guys would just put TM on ignore and never respond. He/She/It is just here to troll. That much should be obvious. If you ignore it, it will go away.

On to the topic at hand.

So what is the solution? Just leave chaos everywhere after you've destroyed the economy of your targeted country, after you've destroyed the infastructure, after you've taken out (likely) all of the recognized--if not legitimate--leaders? What then?

When there is a power vaccuum (sp?--I could never remember how to spell it), someone will take over. If dumb luck is on our side, they will be friendly to the US. Often though, whoever has the most residual power or influence will take over. Whether or not they are friendly or not is a case-by-case basis.

So I often wonder if we should have some sort of branch of the State Department set up to simply manage countries that are no longer able to manage themselves. A branch that would have a 6-24 month plan to re-build the country, hold elections, and as you all say, get the hell out of there. Pipe dream, I know but the idea that out of chaos comes sanity that will be friendly to us is moreso.

This, in a perfect world, would be done by the UN or similar organization like the G7 or whathaveyou but since American blood was spilled to create the vaccuum(sp?), it would make sense that America got to pick the successor.

 

[California Girl]

Agreed, it's why one of the things I have said is that the day we leave Afghanistan it will be as if we were never there, save for the really neat bases we built. Your correct though as a Tribal culture that has been the bain of such powers from the ancient Persians, Alexander, Britian, Soviet Union, and now us, one would think we should have given that a little thought before embarking on this "nation building" policy there.

There's a really good book that I would highly recommend.... Butchers and Bolt by David Loyns.

Butcher and Bolt - Blackwell's Bookshop Online

It's on the recommended reading list for a few of the officers training courses at Leavenworth. I've read it... it's a fascinating read.

Speaking of that , I have to find it there is a lot of good reading from the U.S. Naval War College on this subject.

The Army's recommendations not good enough for you Navy pukes?

 

[whitehall]

Outside of big Carriers and a few Subs it seems that a gigantic Navy is obsolete anyway. What's the use of having Destroyers and Cruisers bouncing around the world? Is the administration right when they call the Navy "a global force for good"? The Peace Corps is a global force for good. The US Navy is out there to kill people and break things if the US is in trouble.

First of all the US Navy is the smallest it's been in many many years, in fact the US Navy is no longer a force that needs numbers in terms of ships as technology allows the Navy the ability to have the same amount of Defense protection with less. Having said that, the US Navy is dedicated to protecting your ability to have a safe method by which the sea lanes are open and commerce flows for one. I have yet to see the Peace Corps off the coasts of say Somalia protecting peaceful commerce that is bound for the ports the world over. These young people are on the Sea each and everyday putting themselves in harms way everyday so that you and I may live in safe way we have become used to. When you see a disaster in the world such as an earthquake, tidal wave, storms, most times it is the US Navy that is first on the ground to help and they are representing this great nation with food, water and medical supplies. So yes... they are "Global Force for Good!!"

Keep the sea lanes open? From what? A few scraggly pirates?

 

[Staidhup]

Outside of big Carriers and a few Subs it seems that a gigantic Navy is obsolete anyway. What's the use of having Destroyers and Cruisers bouncing around the world? Is the administration right when they call the Navy "a global force for good"? The Peace Corps is a global force for good. The US Navy is out there to kill people and break things if the US is in trouble.

First of all the US Navy is the smallest it's been in many many years, in fact the US Navy is no longer a force that needs numbers in terms of ships as technology allows the Navy the ability to have the same amount of Defense protection with less. Having said that, the US Navy is dedicated to protecting your ability to have a safe method by which the sea lanes are open and commerce flows for one. I have yet to see the Peace Corps off the coasts of say Somalia protecting peaceful commerce that is bound for the ports the world over. These young people are on the Sea each and everyday putting themselves in harms way everyday so that you and I may live in safe way we have become used to. When you see a disaster in the world such as an earthquake, tidal wave, storms, most times it is the US Navy that is first on the ground to help and they are representing this great nation with food, water and medical supplies. So yes... they are "Global Force for Good!!"

Keep the sea lanes open? From what? A few scraggly pirates?

It's apparent some people do not understand the role a strong Navy plays in maintaining our security and economic life line, but then again these same people have no concept of history and world economics. Weakness and vulnerability is defined by the lack of an efficient and deadly offensive force.

Our military objective evolved from destroying the Taliban, Killing Bin Laden, and crushing a terrorist enclave, to attempting the impossible feat of assisting Afghanistan in the transformation from a medieval tribal nation to the 21st century. The latter of which was simply not our role.

 

[Navy1960]

Outside of big Carriers and a few Subs it seems that a gigantic Navy is obsolete anyway. What's the use of having Destroyers and Cruisers bouncing around the world? Is the administration right when they call the Navy "a global force for good"? The Peace Corps is a global force for good. The US Navy is out there to kill people and break things if the US is in trouble.

First of all the US Navy is the smallest it's been in many many years, in fact the US Navy is no longer a force that needs numbers in terms of ships as technology allows the Navy the ability to have the same amount of Defense protection with less. Having said that, the US Navy is dedicated to protecting your ability to have a safe method by which the sea lanes are open and commerce flows for one. I have yet to see the Peace Corps off the coasts of say Somalia protecting peaceful commerce that is bound for the ports the world over. These young people are on the Sea each and everyday putting themselves in harms way everyday so that you and I may live in safe way we have become used to. When you see a disaster in the world such as an earthquake, tidal wave, storms, most times it is the US Navy that is first on the ground to help and they are representing this great nation with food, water and medical supplies. So yes... they are "Global Force for Good!!"

Keep the sea lanes open? From what? A few scraggly pirates?

From this..

Four Americans captured by Somali pirates while sailing in the Indian Ocean have been shot and killed, NBC News reported Tuesday.

The two couples, Phyllis Macay, 59, and Robert Riggle, 67, of Seattle, and the yacht's owners, Jean and Scott Adam of Marina del Rey, California, were on an around-the-world sailing trip when they were captured by pirates Friday.

Military officials told NBC News that about 1 a.m. ET shots were heard aboard the yacht, called Quest. Negotiations had been under way with the pirates at the time.
4 American hostages killed by Somali pirates - World news - Africa - Somalia - msnbc.com

or this....

Did you know that during 2008 China traded 35% of the total foreign container trade (export and import) with the United States, followed by Japan which in comparison traded only 5%?

According to statistics found in the Maritime Administration of the U.S. Department of Transportation, China traded 10’040,831 TEUs with the U.S. –or 35% of the total foreign container trade; followed by Japan with “only” 1’550,267 TEUs during 2008.

From the 10 million TEUs traded with China in 2008, about 80% were mere imports to the U.S.! This represents 4.5 times of what it was imported from China back in 1998. No wonder why the U.S. Customs Maritime Ports of L.A. and Long Beach (in California) handled 36% of the total container trading in 2008 (out of 124 U.S. Maritime Ports).


Almost everything that citizens of this nation buy and use in terms of goods is transported by Sea. If it was not protected the prices you are used to and yet even the way of life your used to would cease to exist. Surely you don't think that made in the USA means all of it is Made in the USA? Do you think that Boeing 787 is made totally here in the USA or that Chevy or Ford? perhaps the local candle maker, or niche product or even some agriculture, but this is a Global economy that depends open and unimpeded and SAFE Sea Lanes that the US for the most part spends its manpower and money protecting not just for this nation but for a lot of them. So yes, those pirates your speaking of are not just a matter of some local fools trying to make a buck.

 

[sfcalifornia]

A very wise Marine that I know puts it this way....

"In, win, walk".

Works for me.

....leaving behind a vacuum of power in that country in which anarchy ensues for awhile until a military-backed or religous-backed dictator takes over, repeating the process all over again.

I don't like the idea of hanging around in a country for years and years trying to rebuild a country either but your plan stops seriously short of ensuring that country will not spiral back into the same state it was before we went in.

 

[freedombecki]

I don't understand what is moot about keeping the eagle's eye on Afghanistan.

It was there a terrorist took the world's poorest people, waved 72 virgins in paradise with a lot of loot in front of their noses, developed, trained, and executed a mission taking out the World Trade Center and other targets along with almost 3,000 Americans and/or guests.

We need to stick there to keep the Taliban checked from partying with al Qaeda or they'll do worse than 9/11. Period.

 

[freedombecki]

First of all the US Navy is the smallest it's been in many many years, in fact the US Navy is no longer a force that needs numbers in terms of ships as technology allows the Navy the ability to have the same amount of Defense protection with less. Having said that, the US Navy is dedicated to protecting your ability to have a safe method by which the sea lanes are open and commerce flows for one. I have yet to see the Peace Corps off the coasts of say Somalia protecting peaceful commerce that is bound for the ports the world over. These young people are on the Sea each and everyday putting themselves in harms way everyday so that you and I may live in safe way we have become used to. When you see a disaster in the world such as an earthquake, tidal wave, storms, most times it is the US Navy that is first on the ground to help and they are representing this great nation with food, water and medical supplies. So yes... they are "Global Force for Good!!"

Keep the sea lanes open? From what? A few scraggly pirates?

From this..

Four Americans captured by Somali pirates while sailing in the Indian Ocean have been shot and killed, NBC News reported Tuesday.

The two couples, Phyllis Macay, 59, and Robert Riggle, 67, of Seattle, and the yacht's owners, Jean and Scott Adam of Marina del Rey, California, were on an around-the-world sailing trip when they were captured by pirates Friday.

Military officials told NBC News that about 1 a.m. ET shots were heard aboard the yacht, called Quest. Negotiations had been under way with the pirates at the time.
4 American hostages killed by Somali pirates - World news - Africa - Somalia - msnbc.com

or this....

Did you know that during 2008 China traded 35% of the total foreign container trade (export and import) with the United States, followed by Japan which in comparison traded only 5%?

According to statistics found in the Maritime Administration of the U.S. Department of Transportation, China traded 10’040,831 TEUs with the U.S. –or 35% of the total foreign container trade; followed by Japan with “only” 1’550,267 TEUs during 2008.

From the 10 million TEUs traded with China in 2008, about 80% were mere imports to the U.S.! This represents 4.5 times of what it was imported from China back in 1998. No wonder why the U.S. Customs Maritime Ports of L.A. and Long Beach (in California) handled 36% of the total container trading in 2008 (out of 124 U.S. Maritime Ports).


Almost everything that citizens of this nation buy and use in terms of goods is transported by Sea. If it was not protected the prices you are used to and yet even the way of life your used to would cease to exist. Surely you don't think that made in the USA means all of it is Made in the USA? Do you think that Boeing 787 is made totally here in the USA or that Chevy or Ford? perhaps the local candle maker, or niche product or even some agriculture, but this is a Global economy that depends open and unimpeded and SAFE Sea Lanes that the US for the most part spends its manpower and money protecting not just for this nation but for a lot of them. So yes, those pirates your speaking of are not just a matter of some local fools trying to make a buck.

You're right, Navy 1960. Thanks for your service. Made a quilt top for a wounded Navy vet last week in honor of those who served here at USMB. It's en route to the quilt group that works on projects for servicemen in all the branches. You'll see why they will have to send this one to a US Sailor if you click on the thumbnail at this link.

 

[California Girl]

A very wise Marine that I know puts it this way....

"In, win, walk".

Works for me.

....leaving behind a vacuum of power in that country in which anarchy ensues for awhile until a military-backed or religous-backed dictator takes over, repeating the process all over again.

I don't like the idea of hanging around in a country for years and years trying to rebuild a country either but your plan stops seriously short of ensuring that country will not spiral back into the same state it was before we went in.

We should not use our military to fill power vacuums. They are a fighting force, not the Salvation Army.

 

[Navy1960]

Mission Statement


Mission

U.S. Pacific Fleet protects and defends the collective maritime interests of the United States and its allies and partners in the Asia-Pacific region. In support of U.S. Pacific Command and with allies and partners, U.S. Pacific Fleet enhances stability, promotes maritime security and freedom of the seas, deters aggression and when necessary, fights to win.

Vision

A combat-ready and surge-capable fleet that is ready to respond rapidly to any contingency, that cooperates with allies and partners to promote maritime security and freedom of the seas, that deters and when necessary defeats threats to national security through decisive naval, joint and combined operations.


COMPACFLT - Mission Statement

They fought together as brothers in arms; they died together and now they sleep side by side...To them, we have a solemn obligation &#8212; the obligation to ensure that their sacrifice will help make this a better and safer world in which to live. Adm. Chester Nimitz U.S.N. < That is why we have a United States Navy.

 

[Foxfyre]

I am not a Ron Paul fan, and I think he has some screws loose in some of his views re foreign policy, but I do hope our chosen candidate is considering one of his convictions that we should all consider:

If we are going to put America's blood and treasure at risk, it must always be with a clear vision of:

1. A critical and vital national interest or American lives are at risk.

2. Congress declares war.

3. We send in the troops, no holds barred, no punches pulled, and with overwhelming force, take care of the problem.

4. And then we leave.

Included in that, however, is the problem of treaties between countries who, if we declared war against somebody, would be obligated to go to the defense of whatever place we have the problem with. I don't know that Congressman Paul has thought through the ramifications of that.