Was Ukraine a threat to Russia before start of Russian military operation?

[gipper]

Spanish missionaries first settled Texas, the same ones who settled Mexico. That clearly means according to your logic Texas should be part of Mexico.

I didn’t know Texas was part of the US for centuries before it was given to Mexico by a dictator’s order. Plus I never knew Texans voted to return to the US after a coup in Mexico.

We can’t debate if you don’t know the topic.

 

[Stann]

You’re such a hypocrite. No doubt you support the USG’s numerous invasions all over the world, but you oppose Russia’s. Proving you’re a dupe of the crooked establishment.

Russia made a horrible mistake in doing this to the Ukraine. They should never be forgiven. They should never gain from these horrific Acts. They must pay.

 

[Stann]

I didn’t know Texas was part of the US for centuries before it was given to Mexico by a dictator’s order. Plus I never knew Texans voted to return to the US after a coup in Mexico.

We can’t debate if you don’t know the topic.

Spain controlled Mexico and Texas for nearly 300 years. Mexico did not become independent until 1821. Texas became independent from Mexico in 1836 and applied to be part of the United States in the same year. The US actually didn't want them at that time. It wasn't until John Tyler became president in 1843 that he encouraged the US to allow Texas to join the United States and they did in 1846. This story is completely different than the story between the Ukraine and Russia. Russia was an invader and conqueror. Russians murdered millions of Ukrainians needlessly, and they're at it again. What is there to respect. Nothing.

 

[gipper]

Spain controlled Mexico and Texas for nearly 300 years. Mexico did not become independent until 1821. Texas became independent from Mexico in 1836 and applied to be part of the United States in the same year. The US actually didn't want them at that time. It wasn't until John Tyler became president in 1843 that he encouraged the US to allow Texas to join the United States and they did in 1846. This story is completely different than the story between the Ukraine and Russia. Russia was an invader and conqueror. Russians murdered millions of Ukrainians needlessly, and they're at it again. What is there to respect. Nothing.

Lol.

 

[Stann]

Lol.

You are the only joke here. I don't mind if you keep laughing at yourself, it's no skin off my back

 

[gipper]

You are the only joke here. I don't mind if you keep laughing at yourself, it's no skin off my back

Lol

 

[AntonToo]

If you don't have a sense of your individual rights and believe you must support the collective rights of the nation, which is the case in Russia

Not really the case.

Mostly Russians feel powerless ("What can we do?") and apathetic ("I'm not a politician, they know better"), all that collective stuff has gone the way of communism in Russia.

That apathy is carefully cultured by the state that strikes a deal - we'll take care of the politics and economy, you just mind your own bussiness.

Putin could've given Crimea back to Ukraine instead of invading and 75%+ would fully support it, just as they supported the war. He is a politician, he knows better and TV tells me it's all good with no counterpoint.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Not really the case.

Mostly Russians feel powerless ("What can we do?") and apathetic ("I'm not a politician, they know better"), all that collective stuff has gone the way of communism in Russia.

That apathy is carefully cultured by the state that strikes a deal - we'll take care of the politics and economy, you just mind your own bussiness.

Putin could've given Crimea back to Ukraine instead of invading and 75%+ would fully support it, just as they supported the war. He is a politician, he knows better and TV tells me it's all good with no counterpoint.

I strongly disagree. The guiding principle in Russia is that the people exist to serve the needs of the state, not that the state exists to serve the needs of the people, and that's why the Russian people overwhelming support whatever the Russian government says; they simply don't believe they have to right to protest.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Yeah we just can’t allow the people to chose their government. That’s just too democratic.

You sir are a ******* idiot.

Even you can't possibly be that stupid. The Russian invasion of Crimea was illegal and nothing they have done there carries any legal weight. The ballot the Russians provided in Crimea gave the people the choice of becoming independent or becoming part of the Russian state; it did not provide the option of remaining part of Ukraine.

 

[AntonToo]

I strongly disagree. The guiding principle in Russia is that the people exist to serve the needs of the state, not that the state exists to serve the needs of the people, and that's why the Russian people overwhelming support whatever the Russian government says; they simply don't believe they have to right to protest.

Do you maybe watch their news and political shows? Maybe familiar with their recent opinions and how they talk about things?

No offense but you sound like someone who watched StarTrek.

If you are really interested in the Russian mindset I recommend you watch some of this guy's videos - he is deep in it.

 

[toomuchtime_]

Do you maybe watch their news and political shows? Maybe familiar with their recent opinions and how they talk about things?

No offense but you sound like someone who watched StarTrek.

If you are really interested in the Russian mindset I recommend you watch some of this guy's videos - he is deep in it.

I don't speak Russian so I'm limited in what I can watch of their TV shows, but I do observe English language news about the lack of protests about the horrors Russia is perpetrating in Ukraine and it is clear that nearly all of the protests and even complaints about the war have to do with the fact Russia is losing and not that Russia is otherwise wrong.

A few centuries ago, all the countries of Europe and Russia lived under monarchies in which the there was little difference between the monarch and the state and the people had no rights and were seen by themselves and the government as existing only to serve the needs of the state. In Europe, only gradually over a period of centuries did the premise change from the people serving the needs of the state to the state serving the needs of the people, but in Russia, that change never took place. The relationship between the people and the state is the same in the minds of the Russia people and the government as it was under the Czars and the communists and it is under Putin's government. There are no individual rights in Russia and the Russian people are not complaining about that. In the US or Europe, if the government said you could go to prison for saying war instead of special military operation, the people would be throwing barricades up in the streets, but in Russia it seems perfectly natural to both the people and the government.

 

[Stann]

If you don't have a sense of your individual rights and believe you must support the collective rights of the nation, which is the case in Russia, then anything the government tells you is ok with you. When the government tells you that if you call the war in Ukraine a war instead of a special military operation you are a national security risk and you belong in prison if you do it and you don't feel outraged, clearly anything the government tells you is ok with you.

Democracy is not just about voting; it is about believing the government exists to serve your needs and you have every right to criticize the government. That sense of entitlement does not exist for most Russian people. They are profoundly different from us.

Learned behavior from years of oppression from their leaders.

 

[Stann]

I don't speak Russian so I'm limited in what I can watch of their TV shows, but I do observe English language news about the lack of protests about the horrors Russia is perpetrating in Ukraine and it is clear that nearly all of the protests and even complaints about the war have to do with the fact Russia is losing and not that Russia is otherwise wrong.

A few centuries ago, all the countries of Europe and Russia lived under monarchies in which the there was little difference between the monarch and the state and the people had no rights and were seen by themselves and the government as existing only to serve the needs of the state. In Europe, only gradually over a period of centuries did the premise change from the people serving the needs of the state to the state serving the needs of the people, but in Russia, that change never took place. The relationship between the people and the state is the same in the minds of the Russia people and the government as it was under the Czars and the communists and it is under Putin's government. There are no individual rights in Russia and the Russian people are not complaining about that. In the US or Europe, if the government said you could go to prison for saying war instead of special military operation, the people would be throwing barricades up in the streets, but in Russia it seems perfectly natural to both the people and the government.

Any voice of protest against the Russian government is a threat to one's life. So the fact that thousands upon thousands have protested against this war speaks volumes. That means there are millions and millions that are against the war in Russia that are still afraid to speak out. As the situation in Russia worsens, and I don't see how it's going to get better because very soon the Ukraine is going to start attacking Russian infrastructure especially the electrical grid around the cities and the military bases of that Russia has. They are learning very well from what the Russians are doing to them.

 

[Stann]

So the people of Crimea who voted to return to Russia, should by mass murdered and forced to return to Ukraine.

You are a murderous authoritarian.

That vote and those numbers were fraudulent. As is the Russian-installed puppet-government. I'm sure the ukrainians will be a lot more reasonable to their own people than the Russians have been. Anyone who does not want to live under Ukrainian role can easily leave the country. They do not have the right to stay there and terrorize their fellow Ukrainians. The same choice should be given to the terrorists in the east. Cease and desist or leave, it's a simple choice. At least the ukrainians will give them a choice, the Russians never did.

 

[gipper]

That vote and those numbers were fraudulent. As is the Russian-installed puppet-government. I'm sure the ukrainians will be a lot more reasonable to their own people than the Russians have been. Anyone who does not want to live under Ukrainian role can easily leave the country. They do not have the right to stay there and terrorize their fellow Ukrainians. The same choice should be given to the terrorists in the east. Cease and desist or leave, it's a simple choice. At least the ukrainians will give them a choice, the Russians never did.

Crimea is ethnically Russian, voted overwhelmingly to return to Russia, and was part of Russia for centuries prior to Kruschev’s dictate.

At any rate this war was provoked by NATO and the USG. They now prolong it by providing massive military weaponry in an effort to harm Russia. They have heinously prosecuted this war knowing Ukraine can’t win resulting in its total destruction.

You support them.

 

[Stann]

Crimea is ethnically Russian, voted overwhelmingly to return to Russia, and was part of Russia for centuries prior to Kruschev’s dictate.

At any rate this war was provoked by NATO and the USG. They now prolong it by providing massive military weaponry in an effort to harm Russia. They have heinously prosecuted this war knowing Ukraine can’t win resulting in its total destruction.

You support them.

The only provocation for this war was putin's madness. There's no reasoning with insanity.

 

[gipper]

The only provocation for this war was putin's madness. There's no reasoning with insanity.

If you’re just going to spout establishment talking points, just go do it somewhere else. This board is for intelligent thinking individuals.

 

[Stann]

If you’re just going to spout establishment talking points, just go do it somewhere else. This board is for intelligent thinking individuals.

LOL, so you believe your intelligent too.

 

[Stann]

If you’re just going to spout establishment talking points, just go do it somewhere else. This board is for intelligent thinking individuals.

One question, how valid do you consider the referendum votes in the occupied territories was ?

 

[gipper]

One question, how valid do you consider the referendum votes in the occupied territories was ?

As has been reported in western media since the Obama/Nuland coup of 2014, (you likely miss it) we know the Ukes have attacked eastern Ukraine killing some 14,000 people. Why would they do that? It must be that eastern Ukraine (Donbass) must contain mostly ethnic Russians (also widely reported in western press). Seems likely they would vote to leave the Uke Nazi regime trying to murder them.

No? Yes?