Was Ukraine a threat to Russia before start of Russian military operation?

[Stann]

I disagree. When the USSR dissolved itself, Russia did have a democracy for several years, and despite the fact it had then one of the fastest growing economies in the world, in 1999 the Russian people elected Putin to be PM. I think they got the government they wanted, and so far, I don't see any evidence they would like to turn to western values.

I don't believe the Russian people got what they wanted because their democracy was totally destroyed sorry putin.

 

[Stann]

Ukrainian legislation provides that ethnic Russians are third-grade citizens in Ukraine – compared with first-grade ethnic Crimean Tatars or second-grade ethnic Hungarians and Romanians (see Aren't these Ukrainian laws the Nazi ones?).

But at the same time, Ukrainian authorities demanded Russia to give back the Crimean Peninsula where most of people are ethnic Russians (Russia considers this Peninsula to be its own).

On the official web-site of the Ukrainian President you can read that Ukraine was preparing a package of measures – including military ones – for “de-occupation and reintegration of Crimea” (see here).

Please translate in Google Translator the following phrase


Cannot we conclude that Ukrainian preparation of military measures for “de-occupation and reintegration of Crimea” could provoke the start of the Russian military operation in Ukraine?

So the whole reason the Russians took over Crimea is because elderly wealthier Russians liked living out the rest of their lives in a warm climate by the sea. Then the Russians used much the same justification to stir up trouble in the Donbass region among ethnic Russians. Even helping create, train, supply with weapons and support the regional militias. This is nothing more than a land grab by Russia to make the wealthy and powerful feel good about themselves. The single act of taking the Crimea away from the Ukraine pitted the Ukrainian people against Russia and that's why they look to the West and true democracies. Taking Crimes was the biggest mistake the Russians made. The only comparison I could think of would be Canada taking over Florida because a lot of elderly and wealthy Canadians choose to live there because of the warmth and inviting climate.

 

[gipper]

So the whole reason the Russians took over Crimea is because elderly wealthier Russians liked living out the rest of their lives in a warm climate by the sea. Then the Russians used much the same justification to stir up trouble in the Donbass region among ethnic Russians. Even helping create, train, supply with weapons and support the regional militias. This is nothing more than a land grab by Russia to make the wealthy and powerful feel good about themselves. The single act of taking the Crimea away from the Ukraine pitted the Ukrainian people against Russia and that's why they look to the West and true democracies. Taking Crimes was the biggest mistake the Russians made. The only comparison I could think of would be Canada taking over Florida because a lot of elderly and wealthy Canadians choose to live there because of the warmth and inviting climate.

If you knew history, you’d know Russia has controlled the Crimea since Catherine the Great. Ever heard of her?

 

[toomuchtime_]

I don't believe the Russian people got what they wanted because their democracy was totally destroyed sorry putin.

What disturbs me is the apparent enthusiasm with which the Russian people embraced the invasion of Ukraine until Russia started losing. Democracy is just a western concept to most of them but a fierce nationalism and a distrust of the rest of the world is the reality they see since WWII, and I suspect they would rather have a militaristic leader like Putin who promises to protect them than risk democratic processes to find the right leader.

Think about what Democracy means. It means the state exists to serve the needs of the people, but in countries like Russia, the founding premise is that the people are there to serve the needs of the state. Until the Russians reject that premise, I don't think there will be much change in Russia.

 

[gipper]

What disturbs me is the apparent enthusiasm with which the Russian people embraced the invasion of Ukraine until Russia started losing. Democracy is just a western concept to most of them but a fierce nationalism and a distrust of the rest of the world is the reality they see since WWII, and I suspect they would rather have a militaristic leader like Putin who promises to protect them than risk democratic processes to find the right leader.

Think about what Democracy means. It means the state exists to serve the needs of the people, but in countries like Russia, the founding premise is that the people are there to serve the needs of the state. Until the Russians reject that premise, I don't think there will be much change in Russia.

If Putin is a militarist leader, what does that make every potus from LBJ to the present?

 

[AntonToo]

So the whole reason the Russians took over Crimea is because elderly wealthier Russians liked living out the rest of their lives in a warm climate by the sea. Then the Russians used much the same justification to stir up trouble in the Donbass region among ethnic Russians. Even helping create, train, supply with weapons and support the regional militias. This is nothing more than a land grab by Russia to make the wealthy and powerful feel good about themselves. The single act of taking the Crimea away from the Ukraine pitted the Ukrainian people against Russia and that's why they look to the West and true democracies. Taking Crimes was the biggest mistake the Russians made. The only comparison I could think of would be Canada taking over Florida because a lot of elderly and wealthy Canadians choose to live there because of the warmth and inviting climate.

There is also the Sevastopol base that Russia leased from Ukraine. They would 100% lose the lease as soon as new gov got into power post Maidan.

What disturbs me is the apparent enthusiasm with which the Russian people embraced the invasion of Ukraine until Russia started losing. Democracy is just a western concept to most of them but a fierce nationalism and a distrust of the rest of the world is the reality they see since WWII, and I suspect they would rather have a militaristic leader like Putin who promises to protect them than risk democratic processes to find the right leader.

Think about what Democracy means. It means the state exists to serve the needs of the people, but in countries like Russia, the founding premise is that the people are there to serve the needs of the state. Until the Russians reject that premise, I don't think there will be much change in Russia.

They were worked up to it for many years.

Almost everyone turns on their State Putin Vision at 8pm and gets loaded up with whatever it is Kremlin wants them to belive, which was most often some bs about Ukraine.

 

[toomuchtime_]

There is also the Sevastopol base that Russia leased from Ukraine. They would 100% lose the lease as soon as new gov got into power post Maidan.



They were prepped for it for 8 years.

Almost everyone turns on their State Putin Vision at 8pm and gets loaded up with whatever it is Kremlin wants them to believe.

No, they have been prepared for it for centuries, under the Czars, under the communists and, except for a few years in the 1990's, under the Putin government. There are two competing narratives here.

One is that Russians in Russia are just like the people in the western democracies but they have been tricked by some bad people who took away all their rights and forced them to do evil things but with very little protest from the Russian people.

The other narrative is that Russian culture dating back hundreds of years predisposed the Russian people to find a sense of security in an autocratic government that told them they were surrounded by enemies and the only way they could be safe was to control or destroy every country around them, and that to accomplish this, they must sacrifice any feelings of having individual rights in favor of the collective rights of the state.

It is not just coincidence that the revolutions in western Europe led to democracy and a strong sense of individual rights, and the revolution in Russia led to another autocratic form of government. Russian culture has never supported any sense of individual rights and the Russian people have always seemed fine with that.

 

[AntonToo]

No, they have been prepared for it for centuries, under the Czars, under the communists and, except for a few years in the 1990's, under the Putin government. There are two competing narratives here.

One is that Russians in Russia are just like the people in the western democracies but they have been tricked by some bad people who took away all their rights and forced them to do evil things but with very little protest from the Russian people.

The other narrative is that Russian culture dating back hundreds of years predisposed the Russian people to find a sense of security in an autocratic government that told them they were surrounded by enemies and the only way they could be safe was to control or destroy every country around them, and that to accomplish this, they must sacrifice any feelings of having individual rights in favor of the collective rights of the state.

It is not just coincidence that the revolutions in western Europe led to democracy and a strong sense of individual rights, and the revolution in Russia led to another autocratic form of government. Russian culture has never supported any sense of individual rights and the Russian people have always seemed fine with that.

I'm talking about the support for the war.

They are operating on alt-facts.

 

[toomuchtime_]

I'm talking about the support for the war.

They are operating on alt-facts.

If you don't have a sense of your individual rights and believe you must support the collective rights of the nation, which is the case in Russia, then anything the government tells you is ok with you. When the government tells you that if you call the war in Ukraine a war instead of a special military operation you are a national security risk and you belong in prison if you do it and you don't feel outraged, clearly anything the government tells you is ok with you.

Democracy is not just about voting; it is about believing the government exists to serve your needs and you have every right to criticize the government. That sense of entitlement does not exist for most Russian people. They are profoundly different from us.

 

[Stann]

If you knew history, you’d know Russia has controlled the Crimea since Catherine the Great. Ever heard of her?

That's the key word, controlled, not owned. Crimea clearly lies within Ukrainian national boundaries. Russia is approximately 750 mi to the north. They do not have a legitimate claim to Crimea, they never did.

 

[gipper]

That's the key word, controlled, not owned. Crimea clearly lies within Ukrainian national boundaries. Russia is approximately 750 mi to the north. They do not have a legitimate claim to Crimea, they never did.

You don’t the history.

 

[Stann]

You don’t the history.

I do know the history of the Ukraine, the history of its people and its lands. I do know that they were dominated by other people's most of their history that doesn't matter. The national boundaries do matter.

 

[Dagosa]

Ukrainian legislation provides that ethnic Russians are third-grade citizens in Ukraine – compared with first-grade ethnic Crimean Tatars or second-grade ethnic Hungarians and Romanians (see Aren't these Ukrainian laws the Nazi ones?).

But at the same time, Ukrainian authorities demanded Russia to give back the Crimean Peninsula where most of people are ethnic Russians (Russia considers this Peninsula to be its own).

On the official web-site of the Ukrainian President you can read that Ukraine was preparing a package of measures – including military ones – for “de-occupation and reintegration of Crimea” (see here).

Please translate in Google Translator the following phrase


Cannot we conclude that Ukrainian preparation of military measures for “de-occupation and reintegration of Crimea” could provoke the start of the Russian military operation in Ukraine?

Wow, we should attack Canada where most in some providence’s have the same ethnicity as the neighboring states in the US……strange, dude.

 

[Dagosa]

You don’t the history.

Texas has a history with Mexico, maybe we should turn it over to them.

 

[gipper]

I do know the history of the Ukraine, the history of its people and its lands. I do know that they were dominated by other people's most of their history that doesn't matter. The national boundaries do matter.

Then you must have missed the part where Crimea which had been part of Russia for centuries was given to the Soviet republic of Ukraine by Kruschev, and it voted to return to Russia after the Obama/Nuland coup.

Apparently you don’t believe in democracy.

 

[gipper]

Texas has a history with Mexico, maybe we should turn it over to them.

You too don’t know anything.

 

[Stann]

Then you must have missed the part where Crimea which had been part of Russia for centuries was given to the Soviet republic of Ukraine by Kruschev, and it voted to return to Russia after the Obama/Nuland coup.

Apparently you don’t believe in democracy.

I I didn't miss a thing, besides the Russians, throughout history the ukrainians have been dominated by the golden horde ( mongols ), the crimean Khanate, the grand duchy of Lithuania, and the crown King of Poland. Just like the Polish people, they were caught in the middle between powerful opponents and changed hands many times now they find the other freedom and have a right to their national boundaries. Russia has no say over Ukrainian lands no matter how long they occupied it for. There are others who occupied it for longer.

 

[Stann]

You too don’t know anything.

It is you her pushing this erroneous agenda.

 

[Dagosa]

Then you must have missed the part where Crimea which had been part of Russia for centuries was given to the Soviet republic of Ukraine by Kruschev, and it voted to return to Russia after the Obama/Nuland coup.

Apparently you don’t believe in democracy.

Where did Israel belong before it became independent ?

You too don’t know anything.

I know you’re just making up shit.

 

[gipper]

Where did Israel belong before it became independent ?

I know you’re just making up shit.

So the people of Crimea who voted to return to Russia, should by mass murdered and forced to return to Ukraine.

You are a murderous authoritarian.