Was Ukraine a threat to Russia before start of Russian military operation?

[AntonToo]

It’s coming apart. Warmonger! Down with Ukraine!

Macrone has just won re-election for another 5 year term and majority of French support millitary aid to Ukraine.

So what is it you think some demostrations will do for your Russian fantasies?

 

[para bellum]

Well we'll see what their demands are after they get knocked the f out of Ukraine.

I don't know Anton, I heard right here on this board that it was going to be over in 120 days with a total victory for Russia.

Flying T-14's armed with hypersonic missiles maybe? I can't prove they don't have those, can you?

 

[BackAgain]

Dumb Americans like you are overt hypocrites, yet you’re entirely unaware.

Are you demented like dumb Joe?

Shitheads like you think youre smart and clever; and you’re too ******* stupid to realize that you’re nothing more than a shithead.

Try to follow along little retard. We aren’t talking about what America has done, right or wrong. We still have zero ability to undue the past, you imbecile.

We were addressing Russia and Ukraine.

And the shit you’re babbling about is irrelevant to that conversation.

 

[zaangalewa]

Wait, Zelen$ky is a Jew, therefore Azov aren’t Nazis?

Soros is a Jew and he LOVED working with Nazis

Don't worry werewolf. If I will have to kill you then I will not use a silver bullet but my bullshit canon for many nice freckles asking you in a million brown tones: How for heavens sake are you able to take yourselve serios?

 

[SavannahMann]

Oh it was true.

Means nothing. He was the economist and he said they did not want to help Russia. We are all aware that Russia really suffered economically when the Soviet Union ended. You may have liked them, other people will have been nosy and want to help them. At the time I though everyone wanted to help them. Then I got the idea they were being looted but what he was saying sounded very plausible and about helping Russia economically he said the US did not want to help Russia at all.
You seem to be missing the first few years when Russia could have been helped.

Russia was helped.

That’s what I am saying. I was in the 82nd Airborne from 89 to 93.

Very early. The Rocket Engines I mentioned were being bought and tested within months of the collapse.

Within a year Farm experts were there to help the farmers. It was across the board. Aeroflot pilots were brought west and trained in modern western aircraft. Financing and leasing agreements were made to allow Aeroflot to begin serious international transport routes. Airline experts showed up to show the Russians how to compete and play internationally.

Work began on the ISS almost immediately. With a lot of funding from us.

Yes it was difficult. And it was going to be. Nothing could change that. It was going to be a massive change in everything in every aspect of their lives.

Everyone in the Soviet Union was technically a government employee. It was never going to be an overnight quick fix. It was going to take time. Time for private businesses to get started.

McDonalds moved in immediately. And many other companies all offering jobs and economic prospects as well as services and products.

The change from one social, political, and economic system to another was never going to be fast. It couldn’t be.

The west poured money into the nation. We bought lots of things from military hardware to Russian clothing. The effort was to minimize the pain. To help speed the transition to a better system.

So why would the Russians gravitate towards a strong man dictator instead of a democratically based representation system? The answer is history.

From the time of the Czar it has been the same for the people. The local government officials were appointed. They did what they were told to do. If you had an issue you ignored it until Moscow told the locals what to do about it.

The only real change from Czarist to Soviet was the people calling the shots. Instead of divine right of Kings it was party purity that decided it.

The Russian people didn’t have time to adapt to the idea that local governments were able to deal with local problems.

The changes made by Yeltsin took time to take effect. Let’s use an example for a moment. Let’s say that right now. Today. Biden opens up every square inch of land and ocean to drilling for oil.

It would have no immediate effect. It would take months to even start to drill, and a couple years before any significant amount of oil started to flow.

It takes time for the changes to take effect. And by the time these changes started to take effect another was in charge.

It is an unusual leader who is willing to invest the time needed for changes or programs that won’t have any effect while they are in office. Think of JFK. There was no way that JFK would see the fruit of the Lunar Landing challenge as President. Best will in the world he would be a former President even if he managed to get his full eight years in office. The next guy would get the limelight.

Since JFK we have not seen a national priority which would not pay off in a couple years max.

Putin used language the people were familiar with. And promised the good parts they had known. Security. Stability. The people thought they would get this with some of the new good. And freedoms. The variety.

It wasn’t that we didn’t try to help the Russians. It was that it wasn’t a single thing that needed changing. It was literally everything that needed changing. Political. Social. Economic. Medical. Education. And on down the line. Each was interwoven with the others. And the changes would take a while before people got used to them.

 

[Dissident]

Of course inconvinient facts don't matter to you, if they did you wouldn't be posting your half-baked bullshit.

There is no reason to think there are any Nazis in Zelensky's administration or congress and there is no reason to take seriously your tales about a handfull of country-side grunts having any actual political power.

It depends on what you personally understand under a “Nazi”.

If, in your opinion, a Nazi is a person who has a swastika tattoo on his forehead, I must admit that I personally have not seen persons with such tattoos in Ukrainian government or Ukrainian parliament.

But I haven’t seen persons with such tattoos in government of Nazi Germany too.

But if we understand under Nazis persons who - through legislation – divide ethnic minorities of their country in first-grade people, second-grade people and third-grade, the majority of Ukrainian parliament are Nazis in this case (please see Aren't these Ukrainian laws the Nazi ones?)

And in this case, the Ukrainian President Zelensky - whose Jewish origin has constantly been repeated in this thread - is a Nazi too. Since he, for example, signed Ukrainian Law on Secondary Education in 2020 and this Law divides Ukrainian ethnic minorities in the above-mentioned way.

 

[Oldestyle]

Lol. You think Russia’s army is entirely incapable, yet Putin intends to get back the USSR empire. You fail to see how ignorant that is. He’s in no danger but Ukrainians are, thanks to idiots like you.

Putin's intention was to seize Ukraine and install a puppet government. That intention was blown up when his military was shown to be far less proficient than it was believed to be! What military experts were saying at the beginning of the invasion would take only weeks has not happened at all and now Putin has real opposition in Russia...something that didn't exist before.

 

[gipper]

Putin's intention was to seize Ukraine and install a puppet government. That intention was blown up when his military was shown to be far less proficient than it was believed to be! What military experts were saying at the beginning of the invasion would take only weeks has not happened at all and now Putin has real opposition in Russia...something that didn't exist before.

Probably all wrong. He has little opposition at home. Your just regurgitating MSM talking points.

The west provoked this war and is prolonging it. They don’t even hide their motives, but you don’t know.

The problem is and it’s a problem you don’t consider, this war is killing lots of Ukrainian civilians women and children NEEDLESSLY.

Why did the west shit can peace talks in April?

 

[alexa]

I don't know Anton, I heard right here on this board that it was going to be over in 120 days with a total victory for Russia.

Flying T-14's armed with hypersonic missiles maybe? I can't prove they don't have those, can you?

I read they used hypersonic in Syria. The flying T-14's were only supposed to go into production this year so assuming they needed some imports for them, they would not have been made yet. there is something strange about this. I don't understand why Russia would invade Ukraine when it wasn't sure it had enough weapons to do so and with the sanctions was not going to be able to get them. Then I remember reading the US asking how they had been so wrong that they had expected Russia to have a vast amount of good weapons when they were seen to just have a few which were quickly dealt with.

I guess there are two possibilities now.

Russia did expect things to be easy on entering Ukraine and left most at home. They will come back when Russia comes back
or
Russia cannot invade Ukraine successfully because it does not have the weapons. If they cannot invade Ukraine then I would imagine they cannot defend Russia. What happens then?

 

[Oldestyle]

Probably all wrong. He has little opposition at home. Your just regurgitating MSM talking points.

The west provoked this war and is prolonging it. They don’t even hide their motives, but you don’t know.

The problem is and it’s a problem you don’t consider, this war is killing lots of Ukrainian civilians women and children NEEDLESSLY.

Why did the west shit can peace talks in April?

Putin's always had little opposition at home because he's quashed any opposition by either having it killed or imprisoned. Let's be quite clear...Putin rules by means of fear. He controls the military and the Secret Police. He's been supported by the Oligarchs because he makes them wealthy. Now his little escapade into Ukraine has decimated the military and it's caused the Oligarchs to lose millions. That makes Putin vulnerable.

 

[Oldestyle]

I read they used hypersonic in Syria. The flying T-14's were only supposed to go into production this year so assuming they needed some imports for them, they would not have been made yet. there is something strange about this. I don't understand why Russia would invade Ukraine when it wasn't sure it had enough weapons to do so and with the sanctions was not going to be able to get them. Then I remember reading the US asking how they had been so wrong that they had expected Russia to have a vast amount of good weapons when they were seen to just have a few which were quickly dealt with.

I guess there are two possibilities now.

Russia did expect things to be easy on entering Ukraine and left most at home. They will come back when Russia comes back
or
Russia cannot invade Ukraine successfully because it does not have the weapons. If they cannot invade Ukraine then I would imagine they cannot defend Russia. What happens then?

The Russian people will always defend Russia, Alexa. You can see that historically. Russians defend the Homeland like the Ukrainians now defend Ukraine. That doesn't mean the average Russian is willing to die to support Putin's dream of reconstituting the old Russian Empire. That is the difference in this current war. Russian troops simply don't want to risk their lives fighting for something like Russian expansion.

 

[Oldestyle]

Oldestyle

Six hours ago, after your words “there is a long list of political opponents that Putin has had killed” I asked you to present “a long list of NAMES of these killed political opponents”, see my post.
Or, at least, to present a link under which we can see such a list.

Have you suddenly lost interest in the discussion about the long list of “Putin’s victims” after my request?

As I see, you are now much more interested in discussion about reconstitution of the former Soviet Union.

Anyone that won't admit that Putin DOES have a long list of political enemies that he's either killed or imprisoned isn't honest enough to have a debate with, Dissident! You're an obvious Russian troll. Why would anyone waste their time with you?

 

[alexa]

When is few years? by 2025?

I just want to get a date when you will be conclusively proven to be full of fantastical bs.

It's what I hear and if Europe's Gas was destroyed by the US I would think likely. You cannot make allies with someone who will hit you when you are down and then sell you what they have taken by something 4 times the cost on which they are making massive profits. You just do not do to allies what the US may have done.
There appears to be a lot of talk in Europe about its success being linked to Russia.
There is a talk that Germany at least is finished.

Now I told you it was not impossible that Europewould be integrated with China and Russia in the future and you are asking me for a date. Who would give a date for something which may or may not happen but
without energy at a decent price Europe will have to deindustrialise. People are saying it will be like 3rd world land. Do you really think they would choose that if they had an alternative. This would be to Putin's liking. He went with Dugin's plan which was to take all of Europe except the UK and to give Germany and France special powers within. Who knows.

Alternatively Europe will have sufficient green energy and be able to be independent of both yourselves and Russia.

Russia and China have their money now on the Gold Standard and will announce moving away from the dollar soon. The US days are over. I

 

[alexa]

The Russian people will always defend Russia, Alexa. You can see that historically. Russians defend the Homeland like the Ukrainians now defend Ukraine. That doesn't mean the average Russian is willing to die to support Putin's dream of reconstituting the old Russian Empire. That is the difference in this current war. Russian troops simply don't want to risk their lives fighting for something like Russian expansion.

You're missing my point. Russia would appear at the moment not to have the military weapons needed to beat Ukraine. This would be due to sanctions. Now she may have them and come back with them. However if Russia does not have these weapons and cannot get a cease fire then she also will not have them to protect Russia. What happens with Russia. You can no more protect your country with farm utensils and old guns than you can beat the Ukranian army with same. What happens to Russia if she does not have the weapons to attack Ukraine and protect herself?

 

[gipper]

Putin's always had little opposition at home because he's quashed any opposition by either having it killed or imprisoned. Let's be quite clear...Putin rules by means of fear. He controls the military and the Secret Police. He's been supported by the Oligarchs because he makes them wealthy. Now his little escapade into Ukraine has decimated the military and it's caused the Oligarchs to lose millions. That makes Putin vulnerable.

You just said he has real opposition at home, now this. WTF? Are you demented like old Joe?

Yeah his military is decimated. Lol. You’ll believe anything the western press tell you.

 

[Oldestyle]

It's what I hear and if Europe's Gas was destroyed by the US I would think likely. You cannot make allies with someone who will hit you when you are down and then sell you what they have taken by something 4 times the cost on which they are making massive profits. You just do not do to allies what the US may have done.
There appears to be a lot of talk in Europe about its success being linked to Russia.
There is a talk that Germany at least is finished.

Now I told you it was not impossible that Europewould be integrated with China and Russia in the future and you are asking me for a date. Who would give a date for something which may or may not happen but
without energy at a decent price Europe will have to deindustrialise. People are saying it will be like 3rd world land. Do you really think they would choose that if they had an alternative. This would be to Putin's liking. He went with Dugin's plan which was to take all of Europe except the UK and to give Germany and France special powers within. Who knows.

Alternatively Europe will have sufficient green energy and be able to be independent of both yourselves and Russia.

Russia and China have their money now on the Gold Standard and will announce moving away from the dollar soon. The US days are over. I

How did the US "destroy" Europe's natural gas, Alexa? With all due respect, Europe made the choice to put their natural gas "eggs" in Russia's "basket"! They were warned by Trump that was the wrong decision but did so anyways. Now Putin has the economic power to hurt Europe and he's employing that power. The simple truth is that you're not even close to being self sufficient with "green energy" and your leaders SHOULD have known they were putting themselves at risk!

 

[Dissident]

Anyone that won't admit that Putin DOES have a long list of political enemies that he's either killed or imprisoned isn't honest enough to have a debate with, Dissident! You're an obvious Russian troll. Why would anyone waste their time with you?

Anyone, who says that “there is a long list of political opponents that Putin has had killed” and afterwards refuses to present “a long list of NAMES of these killed political opponents”, is a liar.

You cannot even give a link to a source where we could see such a list.

You are not honest enough to have a debate with!

Why would anyone waste their time with you?

 

[Oldestyle]

You're missing my point. Russia would appear at the moment not to have the military weapons needed to beat Ukraine. This would be due to sanctions. Now she may have them and come back with them. However if Russia does not have these weapons and cannot get a cease fire then she also will not have them to protect Russia. What happens with Russia. You can no more protect your country with farm utensils and old guns than you can beat the Ukranian army with same. What happens to Russia if she does not have the weapons to attack Ukraine and protect herself?

What sanctions have hurt Russia?

The Russian military is still powerful, Alexa but having weapons doesn't mean you have the will to fight. Russian troops aren't willing to give up their lives to get Ukraine for Putin. That doesn't mean they wouldn't fight to the death to defend Russia. They always have.

 

[Oldestyle]

You just said he has real opposition at home, now this. WTF? Are you demented like old Joe?

Yeah his military is decimated. Lol. You’ll believe anything the western press tell you.

You don't have to be a genius to figure out that the Russians are taking huge losses in Ukraine, Gipper! They've made that rather obvious when they're forced to call up 300,000 conscripts. Duh?

 

[alexa]

What sanctions have hurt Russia?

The Russian military is still powerful, Alexa but having weapons doesn't mean you have the will to fight. Russian troops aren't willing to give up their lives to get Ukraine for Putin. That doesn't mean they wouldn't fight to the death to defend Russia. They always have.

I understand that the reason why Russia has not been issuing and using good weapons is because sanctions have stopped her being able to get material to repair them or get new ones,