That's not really how that works but I am glad for you to misstate Christian beliefs. Opposition needs a reason to rise up. Thank you for providing the reason.
Was Jesus aware of being Yahweh?
- Thread starter GreatestIam
- Start date
In harmony with the overlapping definitions of Hebrew ets and Greek xylon & stauros, the Bible teaches Jesus died on an upright stake/pole. NIV translates Heb. ets at Deuteronomy 21:23 as "pole" and renders Paul's quote of this verse (Greek xylon/xulon) at Galatians 3:13 as "pole" as well.
We believe Jesus was nailed to the stake with his hands nailed above his head and his feet nailed below his body. How many nails were used is not stated in Scripture - but note plural nails.
You are using a faulty Bible translation which removes the Divine Name *H3068/Jehovah: and substitutes Lord. For example, note this accurate translation:
Exodus 3:15
Then God said once more to Moses:
“This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham,+ the God of Isaac,+ and the God of Jacob,+ has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever,+ and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation.
Aletheia4u
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Well I wish that the letter "J" was invented during the time of Christ. But since Martin Luther was the first to translated the Bible from its original form, Latin. That he was a German, which the German uses a "J" to replace the "ie". Like In ancient Latin. The name Jesus is spelled and pronounced with an "I" Ieosoos, (Hay-soos). But in Hebrew, it is pronounced Yawshua. But in German, it is pronounced Joshua, which means Savior.
But other translators in the past has used Martin Luther's translations to translate into other languages.
Like Yawkob is Jacob, but in the New testament, it is James.
J - Wikipedia
Aletheia4u
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barn sour
Gold Member
In the Hebrew, it's Yeshua.
barn sour
Gold Member
I have got to learn to wait to post until I've read everything. Sorry guys.
barn sour
Gold Member
There is another possibility. Was He actually forsaken? Or was that just the cry of His humanity as He was dying (giving up His spirit). In fact, it was a direct quote from Psalm 22--another proof that He was the promised Messiah.
Psalm 22:16-24 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture. But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me. Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel. For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
barn sour
Gold Member
You should read John 1. It is explained quite well. He is the Word who became flesh and dwelt among us. John 1:14. He is the Word -- who was WITH GOD and WAS GOD. John 1:1 GOD IS TRIUNE. The Word (God) became flesh and dwelt among us. He is called the Son of God because he was God and man...born of a woman. He created all things....therefore He is the Creator.
luchitociencia
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I'm very impressed of how accurate is your statement. I didn't know how well informed are today's churches about the proper identity of the messiah.
Let me see, "you are the respondent who is with Barn Sour and is Barn Sour", does such sound OK for you?
norwegen
Diamond Member
If Jesus was not forsaken, then he was mistaken. That's not the way I see it.
His cry of dereliction on the Cross did not emanate from his physical torture; he had already suffered long painful agony by the time he cried out to God. He had already expected to suffer this miserable death; it was part of the divine plan, as evidenced in his prayers in Gethsemane. He cried out because he became a curse, redeeming his people from the curse of the law (Gal 3:10-13). “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Mt 27:46). Like David in his twenty-second Psalm, Jesus lost his connection to the tree of life. He called out not to his Father, but to God. He was a curse – not physically, unless we say that God erred in His creation of nature; on that cross, when he bore the sins of mankind, he was a spiritual curse. But then, as with David, the estrangement did not last.
While David may at times have been faithful and at times unfaithful, Jesus was resurrected.
barn sour
Gold Member
Since God is Father, Son, and Spirit then it sounds perfectly fine to me. He is three persons in one being. Just as Gen. 1:26 says, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."
As a human being, I am also triune...composed of body, soul, and spirit. When I create something (like a painting, for instance), I use my body, my soul, and often times my spirit to contribute to the thing I "create". I, of course, am not God so I cannot create the heavens and earth and such the way God did.
barn sour
Gold Member
I'm not sure what you mean by a spiritual curse. However -- there could well be other reasons for why Jesus spoke the words He did while on the cross. One of those reasons is the fulfilment of prophecy concerning Psalm 22 which spoke of the Messiah.
I don't believe you can separate His words from what comes later in the same Psalm.
The reassurance is there....neither hath He hid His face from him....
Psalm 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.
The fact that the fulness of the Godhead dwelt in Him bodily means He was well aware of the fact that He was not actually abandoned. In His humanity, though, I'm sure he was feeling the pain of the sin He bore in our stead.
Well I wish that the letter "J" was invented during the time of Christ. But since Martin Luther was the first to translated the Bible from its original form, Latin. That he was a German, which the German uses a "J" to replace the "ie". Like In ancient Latin. The name Jesus is spelled and pronounced with an "I" Ieosoos, (Hay-soos). But in Hebrew, it is pronounced Yawshua. But in German, it is pronounced Joshua, which means Savior.
But other translators in the past has used Martin Luther's translations to translate into other languages.
Like Yawkob is Jacob, but in the New testament, it is James.
J - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
You are correct about the letter J and also about the prefix Ie in Greek Iesous for the name Jesus. But why do you think the vowel "a" belongs in the prefix of names like Jesus that contain the Divine Name in the prefix?
Bible names with the Divine Name in the prefix usually have either "e" or "o" (or both). The only exception to this is when the Divine Name in abbreviated form (Jah or Yah) is in the prefix. The name Jacob does not contain the Divine Name - but you are correct about the "a" in the prefix of the name Jacob.
Where, for example, does the "e" come from in the name Jesus/Iesous? Or the "o" in the name John (compare the Greek and also the Hebrew forms of the name John).
The Hebrew forms of the name Jesus (all with the same definition) are translated into English with the long form prefix "Jeho" as in Jehoshua or the short form prefixes Je in Jeshua and Jo in Joshua.
The evidence is strong that the first two vowels of the Divine name are "e" and "o" not "a."
Would you like me to post more in depth the evidence for the spelling Jehovah rather than Yahweh (which has the vowels reversed and omits the vowel "o")?
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The "fullness" was not unique to Jesus as trinitarians often assert. You have reference to Colossians 2:9 KJV btw. Note, for example:
(KJV+) Eph_3:19 AndG5037 to knowG1097 theG3588 loveG26 of Christ,G5547 which passethG5235 knowledge,G1108 thatG2443 ye might be filledG4137 withG1519 allG3956 theG3588 fulnessG4138 of God.G2316
You are correct about the 22nd Psalm - I also posted that point. Another example:
Psalms 22:18
They divide my garments among themselves,
And they cast lots for my clothing.+
Interesting that you quoted verse 24 on this thread - whom do you think Jesus cried out to - himself?
This is a good cross reference to your point - but note Jesus "learned obedience."
Hebrews 5:7-10
During his life on earth,* Christ offered up supplications and also petitions, with strong outcries and tears,+ to the One who was able to save him out of death, and he was favorably heard for his godly fear. 8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered.+ 9 And after he had been made perfect,+ he became responsible for everlasting salvation to all those obeying him,+ 10 because he has been designated by God a high priest in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek.+
Oh, and Jehovah did abandon him to death as foretold in Isaiah chapter 53 which see. Btw, God cannot die, but Jesus died for our sins.
Aletheia4u
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Well I wish that the letter "J" was invented during the time of Christ. But since Martin Luther was the first to translated the Bible from its original form, Latin. That he was a German, which the German uses a "J" to replace the "ie". Like In ancient Latin. The name Jesus is spelled and pronounced with an "I" Ieosoos, (Hay-soos). But in Hebrew, it is pronounced Yawshua. But in German, it is pronounced Joshua, which means Savior.
But other translators in the past has used Martin Luther's translations to translate into other languages.
Like Yawkob is Jacob, but in the New testament, it is James.
J - Wikipedia
You are correct about the letter J and also about the prefix Ie in Greek Iesous for the name Jesus. But why do you think the vowel "a" belongs in the prefix of names like Jesus that contain the Divine Name in the prefix?
Bible names with the Divine Name in the prefix usually have either "e" or "o" (or both). The only exception to this is when the Divine Name in abbreviated form (Jah or Yah) is in the prefix. The name Jacob does not contain the Divine Name - but you are correct about the "a" in the prefix of the name Jacob.
Where, for example, does the "e" come from in the name Jesus/Iesous? Or the "o" in the name John (compare the Greek and also the Hebrew forms of the name John).
The Hebrew forms of the name Jesus (all with the same definition) are translated into English with the long form prefix "Jeho" as in Jehoshua or the short form prefixes Je in Jeshua and Jo in Joshua.
The evidence is strong that the first two vowels of the Divine name are "e" and "o" not "a."
Would you like me to post more in depth the evidence for the spelling Jehovah rather than Yahweh (which has the vowels reversed and omits the vowel "o")?
The only reason why they used "J's" in the Bible. It is because the only surviving original biblical texts were written in Latin. These texts that were found were revised version from the original Hebrew texts. None of the Israelites in those times, didn't know how to speak Hebrew. But only a small few knew Hebrew. That is why they were trying to figure out what Jesus was shouting out while on the cross.
Jesus, since He was the king of the Jews. Their king must know how to speak their language and His bloodline must show that He is a seed from Abraham, Herod was mixed. And God only made the promise to Abraham and his descendants.
Even to this day. The Jews uses loan-words from other languages. Like right now, the Muslims are arguing about that the Jews cannot call God Allah. They are claiming it's to be their sacred name for Him.
Ever since they were in captivity from Egypt to Rome. Their language has changed over time.
Even Moses didn't spoke Hebrew very well. His first language was Egyptian. And Paul confirmed it. That is why God sent his brother the Levite to speak to the Hebrews for him. Moses' family has part time taken care of Moses until he was around 3-4 years old. But the rest of his years, he lived among the Egyptians.
But when Jesus has opened up the ancient scrolls and read them to the men in the synagogue. That they were amazed because He know how to read that forgotten language. A son of a carpenter, which Joseph was actually a repairman, that restored old things.
And so the I and J it replaces the Y in Hebrew.
Jewish languages - Wikipedia
Why can Hebrew be read without written vowels?
Answer (1 of 50): Every language, including Hebrew, has vowels. Without them you could not pronounce the words. What you may be referring to is the Hebrew Alphabet, in which case, the answer is yes and no. Obviously I am going to need to do some explaining. In the modern Hebrew alphabet there ar...
Acts 7:22 Moses was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was powerful in speech and action.
Exodus 4:10 Moses said to the Lord, “Pardon your servant, Lord. I have never been eloquent, neither in the past nor since you have spoken to your servant. I am slow of speech and tongue.”
Exodus 4:14 Then the Lord’s anger burned against Moses and he said, “What about your brother, Aaron the Levite? I know he can speak well. He is already on his way to meet you, and he will be glad to see you.
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Aletheia4u
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And the Levites lived in the outskirts in caves-like structures., like Elijah and John lived. They had to separate themselves from worldly things like living in man-made structures and they lived from off the land or whatever God supplied to them. Only to serve God. They lived like monks. And which these scrolls were found in caves on the outskirt of the cities.
I like these adult cartoons because it is more accurate than the films of today. To much phony drama in these biblical movies. The movie the Ten Commandment, has no truth to it.
But in this animation that it shows how the Levites lived.
luchitociencia
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I think you are not responding directly to the phrase"was with God... was God" from which the phrase itself is showing that something is missing in it. Lets consider that such is poetry or that a word is missing in such phrase.
Since God is Father, Son, and Spirit then it sounds perfectly fine to me. He is three persons in one being. Just as Gen. 1:26 says, "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."
As a human being, I am also triune...composed of body, soul, and spirit. When I create something (like a painting, for instance), I use my body, my soul, and often times my spirit to contribute to the thing I "create". I, of course, am not God so I cannot create the heavens and earth and such the way God did.
If John was to portrait the so called trinity, he should include the third person in his phrase, but he didn't.
In order to decipher that phrase, you must have to return back to Genesis, the first two chapters. Right there is the answer to that phrase of John.
Allow me to explain the reason of my advice.
The order to the disciples was to announce the good news. That's all.
The only message to be given to Israel and the rest of the world was announcing the Gospel, that the messiah died and was resurrected, that death has been conquered.
From here, in order to understand what such a sacrifice of Jesus means, the new followers were to learn the scriptures where the whole explanation is given.
The apostles never preached Genesis, or prophet Isaiah, neither about Moses. They never did it because that was not their job.
The apostles might have mentioned several biblical quotes from the scriptures (old testament for you) as "a granted known knowledge" that must have been acquired by the listeners thru teachings received in synagogues.
Yes. The new gentile disciples were complete ignorant of Genesis, Leviticus, Numbers, etc. because they came from foreign religions. These gentiles didn't know about king David, the divided kingdom of Israel, etc. Then, how you think they will interpret the words of Jesus if they ignored what Jesus was talking about when Jesus said words like "from the beginning It was not so" in reference to the law of Moshe?
New believers were supposed to learn the Torah, the Prophet and the Scriptures right after they accepted Jesus as the messiah.
And the same it happened to many gentiles who didn't learn the "old testament" in order to understand "the new testament", the same is happening to you.
You grew up receiving biblical teachings from ignorant people. Your pastor is an ignorant because he also received teachings coming from other ignorant preachers. It is a long chain of pure ignorant people throughout generations.
I can bet you don't understand the first chapter of Genesis, then, how in the world you pretend to say you can understand the words of John?
John is talking to people who understood the Torah, not to you.
Go back to Genesis the first and second chapter.
That is the only way you will understand that phrase (incomplete or edited) was with God... was God.
By learning properly the bible from beginning to end, you will realize that such doctrine of the trinity is 100% false.
norwegen
Diamond Member
Spiritual alienation. Spiritual death. I thought I made that clear.
You're not saying anything here. If Jesus wasn't actually abandoned, then he was mistaken. If that's what you believe, that's your prerogative.
Well I wish that the letter "J" was invented during the time of Christ. But since Martin Luther was the first to translated the Bible from its original form, Latin. That he was a German, which the German uses a "J" to replace the "ie". Like In ancient Latin. The name Jesus is spelled and pronounced with an "I" Ieosoos, (Hay-soos). But in Hebrew, it is pronounced Yawshua. But in German, it is pronounced Joshua, which means Savior.
But other translators in the past has used Martin Luther's translations to translate into other languages.
Like Yawkob is Jacob, but in the New testament, it is James.
J - Wikipedia
You are correct about the letter J and also about the prefix Ie in Greek Iesous for the name Jesus. But why do you think the vowel "a" belongs in the prefix of names like Jesus that contain the Divine Name in the prefix?
Bible names with the Divine Name in the prefix usually have either "e" or "o" (or both). The only exception to this is when the Divine Name in abbreviated form (Jah or Yah) is in the prefix. The name Jacob does not contain the Divine Name - but you are correct about the "a" in the prefix of the name Jacob.
Where, for example, does the "e" come from in the name Jesus/Iesous? Or the "o" in the name John (compare the Greek and also the Hebrew forms of the name John).
The Hebrew forms of the name Jesus (all with the same definition) are translated into English with the long form prefix "Jeho" as in Jehoshua or the short form prefixes Je in Jeshua and Jo in Joshua.
The evidence is strong that the first two vowels of the Divine name are "e" and "o" not "a."
Would you like me to post more in depth the evidence for the spelling Jehovah rather than Yahweh (which has the vowels reversed and omits the vowel "o")?
The only reason why they used "J's" in the Bible. It is because the only surviving original biblical texts were written in Latin. These texts that were found were revised version from the original Hebrew texts. None of the Israelites in those times, didn't know how to speak Hebrew. But only a small few knew Hebrew. That is why they were trying to figure out what Jesus was shouting out while on the cross.
Jesus, since He was the king of the Jews. Their king must know how to speak their language and His bloodline must show that He is a seed from Abraham, Herod was mixed. And God only made the promise to Abraham and his descendants.
Even to this day. The Jews uses loan-words from other languages. Like right now, the Muslims are arguing about that the Jews cannot call God Allah. They are claiming it's to be their sacred name for Him.
Ever since they were in captivity from Egypt to Rome. Their language has changed over time.
Even Moses didn't spoke Hebrew very well. His first language was Egyptian. And Paul confirmed it. That is why God sent his brother the Levite to speak to the Hebrews for him. Moses' family has part time taken care of Moses until he was around 3-4 years old. But the rest of his years, he lived among the Egyptians.
But when Jesus has opened up the ancient scrolls and read them to the men in the synagogue. That they were amazed because He know how to read that forgotten language. A son of a carpenter, which Joseph was actually a repairman, that restored old things.
And so the I and J it replaces the Y in Hebrew.
Jewish languages - Wikipedia
Why can Hebrew be read without written vowels?
Answer (1 of 50): Every language, including Hebrew, has vowels. Without them you could not pronounce the words. What you may be referring to is the Hebrew Alphabet, in which case, the answer is yes and no. Obviously I am going to need to do some explaining. In the modern Hebrew alphabet there ar...www.quora.com
Acts 7:22 Moses was educated in all the wisdom of the Egyptians and was powerful in speech and action.
Exodus 4:10 Moses said to the Lord, “Pardon your servant, Lord. I have never been eloquent, neither in the past nor since you have spoken to your servant. I am slow of speech and tongue.”
Exodus 4:14 Then the Lord’s anger burned against Moses and he said, “What about your brother, Aaron the Levite? I know he can speak well. He is already on his way to meet you, and he will be glad to see you.
Thank you for the links. The vowel points were added later. But Greek has written vowels, and the ancient Jewish Septuagint had vowels for Bible names.
Curious why you are quoting a translation that removes the Divine Name and substitutes "Lord."
While I think Yahweh is wrong in English, certainly "Lord" is a mistranslation.
Lord is either H113/adon or H136/adonay in Hebrew. Jehovah is H3068/yehovah in Hebrew.
A better translation of Exodus 4:10 -
(NW ref) Moses now said to Jehovah: “Excuse me, Jehovah,* but I am not a fluent speaker, neither since yesterday nor since before that nor since your speaking to your servant, for I am slow of mouth and slow of tongue.”+
Footnote on the second occurrence of the Divine Name in this verse:
Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY
This is an authorized Web site of Jehovah’s Witnesses. It is a research tool for publications in various languages produced by Jehovah’s Witnesses.
wol.jw.org
One of 134 scribal changes from YHWH to ʼAdho·naiʹ. See App 1B.
See that appendix - an excerpt:
"In 134 places the Jewish Sopherim (scribes) altered the original Hebrew text from YHWH to ʼAdho·naiʹ. Gins.Mas, Vol. IV, p. 28, § 115, says: “We have seen that in many of these one hundred and thirty-four instances in which the present received text reads Adonaī in accordance with this Massorah, some of the best MSS. and early editions read the Tetragrammaton, and the question arises how did this variation obtain? ...."
I view of that evidence, this translation is good:
Exodus 4:10
(TS2009) And Mosheh said to יהוה, “O יהוה, I am not a man of words, neither before nor since You have spoken to Your servant, for I am slow of speech and slow of tongue.”
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