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Was Adam supposed to sin in God's great plan?

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GreatestIam

GreatestIam

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Gnosticism (from Ancient Greek: γνωστικός, romanized: gnōstikós, Koine Greek: [ɣnostiˈkos], 'having knowledge') is a collection of religious ideas and systems which originated in the late 1st century AD among Jewish and early Christian sects.[1] These various groups emphasised personal spiritual knowledge (gnosis) above the orthodox teachings, traditions, and authority of traditional religious institutions. Viewing material existence as flawed or evil, Gnostic cosmogony generally presents a distinction between a supreme, hidden God and a malevolent lesser divinity (sometimes associated with the Yahweh of the Old Testament)[2] who is responsible for creating the material universe.[3] Gnostics considered the principal element of salvation to be direct knowledge of the supreme divinity in the form of mystical or esoteric insight. Many Gnostic texts deal not in concepts of sin and repentance, but with illusion and enlightenment.[3]
That last is correct.

We throw out stupid supernatural thinking and use logic, reason and Gnosis/insight.

Logos always trumps mythos.

Intelligence will always trump stupidity.

That does not mean we ignore sin. We think teaching a belief in the supernatural is abuse.

Regards
DL
 
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GreatestIam

GreatestIam

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Actually it is, dummy.

Send me a link that says otherwise.
There is none that I know of.

We have never been the stupid that created the literalist Christianity.

Regards
DL
 

james bond

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E-jGpaOX0AUnNZ0
If that's your morality, then you could end up in jail. God forgives, but he also punishes. Of course, Satan tells you God forgives.
 

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That last is correct.

We throw out stupid supernatural thinking and use logic, reason and Gnosis/insight.

Logos always trumps mythos.

Intelligence will always trump stupidity.

That does not mean we ignore sin. We think teaching a belief in the supernatural is abuse.

Regards
DL
That's not what that says. It says you believe in a hidden God who is a supreme deity and an evil God.
 

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There is none that I know of.

We have never been the stupid that created the literalist Christianity.

Regards
DL
Oh there are links on Gnostic Christianity but none of them say you don't believe in any god at all.

What's the name of the church you attend?
 
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GreatestIam

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That's not what that says. It says you believe in a hidden God who is a supreme deity and an evil God.
You are not able to judge the meaning of things as you do not take out the lies.

Your last is partially true.

We call the mythical Yahweh a demiurge in the hope that Christians recognize, some day, that genocide, homophobia and misogyny are evil.

Regards
DL
 
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GreatestIam

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Oh there are links on Gnostic Christianity but none of them say you don't believe in any god at all.
They say we do not believe in a supernatural fictional god.

We were and are the intelligentsia and moralists of those days and do not think stupidly.

Regards
DL
 

ding

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You are not able to judge the meaning of things as you do not take out the lies.

Your last is partially true.

We call the mythical Yahweh a demiurge in the hope that Christians recognize, some day, that genocide, homophobia and misogyny are evil.

Regards
DL
Since you have no link for Gnostic Christian beliefs, you are expressing your personal beliefs.
 

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They say we do not believe in a supernatural fictional god.

We were and are the intelligentsia and moralists of those days and do not think stupidly.

Regards
DL
Again... Since you have no link for Gnostic Christian beliefs, you are expressing your personal beliefs.

Which are counter to the beliefs as stated by Gnostic Christians.
 

BreezeWood

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Again... Since you have no link for Gnostic Christian beliefs, you are expressing your personal beliefs.

Which are counter to the beliefs as stated by Gnostic Christians.
.
- and your christian catechism was written in the 1st century ...
 

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Was Adam supposed to sin in God's great plan?​

It has been argued that Adam and Eve did not sin when they partook of the forbidden fruit but that they only transgressed. Adam and Eve did not have a knowledge of good and evil until after they had partaken of the forbidden fruit. They definitely knew there would be consequences for their transgression but they didn't understand good and evil and did not really even know what death was at the time because they were in a state of innocence and had never seen or heard of death before. They also had never experienced deception and when Eve was told by the devil that she would not die, what reason did she have to disbelieve him. Adam and Eve were not like you and I who grow up in a world of deception and good and evil, they had no experience of such and only trusted in what they were told. Sin implies a knowledge that something is wrong or evil and yet is still indulged in. Since they were innocent not knowing good or evil, their transgression was not sin but only a transgression of the commandment. However, they did have free will and they chose not to obey the commandment and the prescribed punishment was mete out.

In Answer to this threads question, God did set up the conditions that Adam and Eve were placed in in the Garden and knew in advance that the fall would occur and did not avoid it. It was God's plan that his children go through a mortal probation. Here are the evidences for this:

1. God the Father foreordained Jesus Christ to be the Savior of the World before the foundation of this World.

1 Peter 1:19-21
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

This occurred before Adam and Eve were ever placed in the Garden of Eden. This shows the omniscience of God and that he knew Adam and Eve would fall and thus prepared a way for Original Transgression to be forgiven and that if mankind would repent of their sins they could also find forgiveness of sin. The Atonement of Jesus Christ also provided for the resurrection of the dead so that when this life is over, all mankind will rise in the resurrection and become immortal and never die again. So this life simply becomes a time for mankind to gain a greater knowledge by experiencing good and evil, hardship, death, joy, love, hunger, fatigue, sorrow, etc., etc. In the end we will live in much better conditions and will never die.

2. In order for their to be evil in the world, God needed someone to influence mankind to disobey his commandments to do good. For this reason, after Lucifer rebelled against God in the War in Heaven, God cast Lucifer, later named Satan and Perdition, into this world along with his followers. Satan tempted the innocent Eve to disobey God's commandment regarding the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He and his followers also spend their time tempting all the rest of us to do evil as well. By learning to choose good over evil, we become stronger beings and become more like God. Throughout the ages, God has laid down his law letting us know what is good and by doing the opposite of good is evil. Thus by having a knowledge of good and evil, we then go beyond transgression through our disobedience to sin. God having foreknowledge of Adam and Eve's fall, He certainly could have kept the devil from being on this earth to tempt us. But he didn't. He placed him here so that we would provide opposition to his plan and thus we would have the need to grown strong in resisting temptation and becoming more like God himself in learning to choose good over evil. Those who not only learn to keep God's commandments but also learn to resist temptation and become much better and stronger people. Thus it was essential that mankind have a way to overcome their weaknesses through repentance and forgiveness of sin.

3. Just the sheer fact that God placed two innocent beings who had no knowledge of good and evil, deception, lying, or a remembrance of the the fall of Lucifer in a situation where this highly deceptive being would tempt them in their innocent state is more evidence that God knew that Adam and Eve would fall. It was as if God himself brought the entire plan into action. I believe he did just that because this earthly mortal probation is a necessary step in the progression of mankind to become being that are more like God. Free will is an essential part of mankind's progression. Without it there would be no progression. If there were no free will in this life, God would force us all to be good beings. However, that is not how beings progress to become good beings. You have learn to be good in and of yourself. You would not be a good being if God had to force you to do good for all eternity. To become good beings of one's own volition is the true path of progression. With free will, there will be those who do not choose good over evil but just the opposite. That is their choice. This life becomes a testing ground to see who will excel in doing good over evil. With free will some will choose to follow evil over good. That is a necessary drawback to the plan of progression. Free will ensures all will get what they themselves choose to receive. But God does not allow those who cannot obey his commandment into his kingdom. They will have to go to another kingdom if they are not willing to live the law of his kingdom. We are born with a predisposition to do good through that light of Christ that is given to every man and woman that enters into this world. It is through rejecting that light and choosing wickedness over goodness that we can loose that precious light that we are given in the beginning of our lives. By choosing good over evil, we receive more and more of the light in our lives and qualify for entrance into God's Holy Kingdom.
 

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Was Adam supposed to sin in God's great plan?

Thanks.

Regards
DL
Was the leper supposed to disobey Jesus, when Jesus instructed him to not go around saying what Jesus did for him? He would have obeyed Jesus had he allowed Christs spirit to come into him. He did not do that, disappointing Jesus. Same with Adam. Adam disappointed God, not obeying him.
 
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GreatestIam

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Was Adam supposed to sin in God's great plan?​

It has been argued that Adam and Eve did not sin when they partook of the forbidden fruit but that they only transgressed. Adam and Eve did not have a knowledge of good and evil until after they had partaken of the forbidden fruit. They definitely knew there would be consequences for their transgression but they didn't understand good and evil and did not really even know what death was at the time because they were in a state of innocence and had never seen or heard of death before. They also had never experienced deception and when Eve was told by the devil that she would not die, what reason did she have to disbelieve him. Adam and Eve were not like you and I who grow up in a world of deception and good and evil, they had no experience of such and only trusted in what they were told. Sin implies a knowledge that something is wrong or evil and yet is still indulged in. Since they were innocent not knowing good or evil, their transgression was not sin but only a transgression of the commandment. However, they did have free will and they chose not to obey the commandment and the prescribed punishment was mete out.

In Answer to this threads question, God did set up the conditions that Adam and Eve were placed in in the Garden and knew in advance that the fall would occur and did not avoid it. It was God's plan that his children go through a mortal probation. Here are the evidences for this:

1. God the Father foreordained Jesus Christ to be the Savior of the World before the foundation of this World.

1 Peter 1:19-21
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

This occurred before Adam and Eve were ever placed in the Garden of Eden. This shows the omniscience of God and that he knew Adam and Eve would fall and thus prepared a way for Original Transgression to be forgiven and that if mankind would repent of their sins they could also find forgiveness of sin. The Atonement of Jesus Christ also provided for the resurrection of the dead so that when this life is over, all mankind will rise in the resurrection and become immortal and never die again. So this life simply becomes a time for mankind to gain a greater knowledge by experiencing good and evil, hardship, death, joy, love, hunger, fatigue, sorrow, etc., etc. In the end we will live in much better conditions and will never die.

2. In order for their to be evil in the world, God needed someone to influence mankind to disobey his commandments to do good. For this reason, after Lucifer rebelled against God in the War in Heaven, God cast Lucifer, later named Satan and Perdition, into this world along with his followers. Satan tempted the innocent Eve to disobey God's commandment regarding the tree of knowledge of good and evil. He and his followers also spend their time tempting all the rest of us to do evil as well. By learning to choose good over evil, we become stronger beings and become more like God. Throughout the ages, God has laid down his law letting us know what is good and by doing the opposite of good is evil. Thus by having a knowledge of good and evil, we then go beyond transgression through our disobedience to sin. God having foreknowledge of Adam and Eve's fall, He certainly could have kept the devil from being on this earth to tempt us. But he didn't. He placed him here so that we would provide opposition to his plan and thus we would have the need to grown strong in resisting temptation and becoming more like God himself in learning to choose good over evil. Those who not only learn to keep God's commandments but also learn to resist temptation and become much better and stronger people. Thus it was essential that mankind have a way to overcome their weaknesses through repentance and forgiveness of sin.

3. Just the sheer fact that God placed two innocent beings who had no knowledge of good and evil, deception, lying, or a remembrance of the the fall of Lucifer in a situation where this highly deceptive being would tempt them in their innocent state is more evidence that God knew that Adam and Eve would fall. It was as if God himself brought the entire plan into action. I believe he did just that because this earthly mortal probation is a necessary step in the progression of mankind to become being that are more like God. Free will is an essential part of mankind's progression. Without it there would be no progression. If there were no free will in this life, God would force us all to be good beings. However, that is not how beings progress to become good beings. You have learn to be good in and of yourself. You would not be a good being if God had to force you to do good for all eternity. To become good beings of one's own volition is the true path of progression. With free will, there will be those who do not choose good over evil but just the opposite. That is their choice. This life becomes a testing ground to see who will excel in doing good over evil. With free will some will choose to follow evil over good. That is a necessary drawback to the plan of progression. Free will ensures all will get what they themselves choose to receive. But God does not allow those who cannot obey his commandment into his kingdom. They will have to go to another kingdom if they are not willing to live the law of his kingdom. We are born with a predisposition to do good through that light of Christ that is given to every man and woman that enters into this world. It is through rejecting that light and choosing wickedness over goodness that we can loose that precious light that we are given in the beginning of our lives. By choosing good over evil, we receive more and more of the light in our lives and qualify for entrance into God's Holy Kingdom.
You do what scriptures say not to do. Add meaning to it.

The bible says that Adam sinned and I will not argue against it as you do.

Your view are based on our needing to be saved, even though we are in god's image.

God must need saving if we do. Right?

If you wish to discuss your vile morals on Jesus, here is why your views are immoral.

I do not really expect you to engage. Most Christians just run away from the truth.

On Jesus dying for Christians. Try to think in a moral way.

It takes quite an inflated ego to think a god would actually die for us, after condemning us unjustly in the first place.

Christians have swallowed a lie and don’t care how evil they make Jesus to keep their feel good get out of hell free card.

It is a lie, first and foremost, because, like it or not, having another innocent person suffer or die for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

To abdicate your personal responsibility for your actions or use a scapegoat is immoral.

Christians also have to ignore what Jesus, as a Jewish Rabbi, would have taught his people.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Psa 49;7 None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

There is no way that Christians would teach their children to use a scapegoat to escape their just punishments and here you are promoting doing just that.

Jesus is just a smidge less immoral than his demiurge genocidal father, and here you are trying to put him as low in moral fiber as Yahweh. Tsk tsk.

Regards
DL
 
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GreatestIam

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They definitely knew there would be consequences for their transgression
I do not know how you can know what they thought. I will take that as opinion and not fact.

Question for you. Good or evil consequences?

I see good ones and so did the Jews who have no Original Sin concept. They see Original Virtue for man.

Do you think it wise to ignore an eternal life the tree of life, and being amoral and as bright as a brick, --- and choosing a life with a moral sense?

Are morals important to you?

If so, do as most Christians do and sing of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to god's plan?

Without sin in the Christian theology, God's plan get's derailed.

Would you derail the plan or sin?

Regards
DL
 
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GreatestIam

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Was the leper supposed to disobey Jesus, when Jesus instructed him to not go around saying what Jesus did for him? He would have obeyed Jesus had he allowed Christs spirit to come into him. He did not do that, disappointing Jesus. Same with Adam. Adam disappointed God, not obeying him.
Disappointed? Why?

You and Christians sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

Yahweh's plan would have been derailed if Adam had not sinned.

Would you sin or would you not sin and derail god's plan?

Regards
DL
 

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Again... Since you have no link for Gnostic Christian beliefs, you are expressing your personal beliefs.

Which are counter to the beliefs as stated by Gnostic Christians.

Gnostic Beliefs - Christian History for Everyman
The defining characteristic of gnosticism is "dualism." Dualism means that there's a spirit world, which is good, and a material world, and everything about that material world is bad. According to gnosticism, all of nature is a mistake produced by an ignorant god. Photo mine. The reason that the material world is bad, according to gnostic beliefs, is that the true God of all the universe didn't make it.
 

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