USS Liberty

[JoeB131]

I failed to mention another revealing fact about the Israeli helicopter-control tower transcripts discussed in the 6/13/67 CIA report on the incident: the pilots were ordered to try to rescue any sailors who had jumped into the water from the ship that had been attacked. I quoted from this report in an earlier reply, but it's worth quoting again:

Why? Transcripts can be forged.

The problem is you want to take the Zionists at the word.

I don't.

Don't trust them.

 

[mikegriffith1]

the Liberty didn't "mistakenly" fire on them. They fired on assholes who had already attacked them.

Uh, no. Can you read? Let me repeat the facts: The captain himself suspected the air attacks were done in error and so he ordered the gunner not to fire, but the gunner fired before he understood the captain's order, and the other gun went off accidentally because the fire ignited some of the bullets in it.

Really? So the Zionists were ready to March on Cairo? Oh, wait, no, they weren't.

You are a child indeed. No, of course the Israelis weren't ready to march on Cairo. What an idiotic argument. They could have done so, but they had no desire to do so.

I notice you snipped your howler that the Israelis were "so willing" to give up the Sinai at Camp David.

You left out the Yom Kippur War, where the Egyptians, using SAGER rockets, decimated the IDF in Sinai. that's when the Zionists realized occupying the Sinai was too much trouble.

So you're doubling down on your ignorance. The Israelis halted the Egyptian advance after just three days and then mounted a devastating counter attack. They encircled the main Egyptian army and regained the Sinai. There was literally nothing between them and Cairo. They could have wiped out the entire Egyptian Third Army but chose to allow it to surrender.

The Israelis still held the Sinai at Camp David in 1978 because they had regained it during the Yom Kippur War and had held it since then with no problems. They'd even begun building settlements in the Sinai.

You know, this is basic history that you can find in literally tens of thousands of sources. But, as usual, you're ignorant of the facts and write one howler after another.

Transcripts can be faked.

And the intercepts too? Were the Moon landings faked too? Were the WTC towers brought down by controlled demolitions from explosives that were planted in the towers before the planes hit? Was Princess Diana killed by the Secret Team?

Were Mao and Stalin great leaders who did not really kill tens of millions of their own peoples? Were the Chinese Nationalists actually worse than the brutal Mao-led Chinese Communists? Were the Israelis dying to give up the Sinai at Camp David?

You're a WINGNUT.

Again, nice victim blaming, that the service members on Liberty, having been attacked twice, decided to finally start fighting back.

No one is blaming the victims, you juvenile. Their firing on the Israeli boats was a misunderstanding and an accident. The Israeli attack was an accident, just as the Black Hawk Incident was an accident, even though the Black Hawks were clearly marked with American flags and even though the two fighters reconned close enough to the choppers to see that one of them had sponsons.

Israel still fired the first shot, that makes them the aggressors.

Perhaps we should start calling you Jihadist Joe. Or maybe Juvenile Jihadist Joe. Only radical Muslims, neo-Nazis, and some woke leftist pro-Hamas Israel haters still claim that Israel was the aggressor in the Six-Day War. Any person with brains and a modicum of education understands that launching a preemptive strike against an enemy who is preparing to attack you does not make you the aggressor.

Not every scholar, and again, the fact that the Jewish Lobby has our government in such a vice these *&$%( can kill Americans and we apologize to them is horrendous.

99% of all scholars. And, do you not even know that Israel officially apologized for the accident and paid compensation to the families? Or did your jihadist/neo-Nazi/woke Israel-bashing sources not mention that fact?

I kind of got bored with your 'whataboutisms", guy.

Read: Although you've taken stabs at (lamely) explaining other friendly fire incidents, you realize that the Black Hawk Incident was an egregiously inexcusable case of friendly fire but was indeed accidental. It was far more baffling and inexcusable than the Liberty incident.

It is hard to fathom how the fighter pilots could have mistaken two Black Hawks for two Hinds, leaving aside the fact that the Black Hawks had several American flags prominently painted on them. The nose of the Hind alone is very different from the Black Hawk's nose, not to mention that the Hind has a rocket-launching arm on each side.

And this is not to even mention the AWACS operators' astounding failures. Just one minute after the AWACS operators acknowledged F-15 pilot Wickson's notification of the radar contacts, the IFF returns from the Black Hawks were not only clearly visible but also identifiable as being in the same location as Wickson’s reported contacts. Yet, incredibly, no AWACS operator told the F-15 pilots about the presence of the two Black Hawks in the target area.

The Liberty was a clearly marked American ship that was nearly 500 feet long. There's simply no way the Zionists could have mistaken it for ANYTHING ELSE three times.

"Simply no way"??? Was there "simply no way" that two American fighter pilots could have failed to notice any of the American flags prominently displayed on the Black Hawk helicopters, even though they flew close enough to them to see the sponsons on one of them? Was there "simply no way" the AWACS operators could have accidentally failed to notify the fighters that two choppers in the target area had IFF'd as friendly, even though they knew that the fighter pilots believed they had spotted two Soviet-made Hind choppers in that same area? "Simply no way," huh?

And in order to make this assumption, you must dismiss all the evidence that shows the Liberty attack was an accident: the Hatzor Tower recordings and transcripts, the fact that the Israeli planes that reconned the Liberty never got closer than 2 miles to it, the fact that when pilots are making bombing and strafing runs they are traveling at several hundred miles per hour, the fact that when the Israeli torpedo boats arrived they did not open fire but asked the Liberty to ID itself and did not fire until the Liberty mistakenly fired at them, the fact that the Israeli chopper pilots were ordered to try to rescue any sailors who had jumped from the target ship, the fact that the Israelis believed that an Egyptian naval ship in the area had bombarded El Arish, etc., etc., etc.

 

[JoeB131]

Uh, no. Can you read? Let me repeat the facts: The captain himself suspected the air attacks were done in error and so he ordered the gunner not to fire, but the gunner fired before he understood the captain's order, and the other gun went off accidentally because the fire ignited some of the bullets in it.

You think that the gunner was wrong in defending himself?

If you want to cite the Captain, how about his statements that he thinks the attack was deliberate.

‘Liberty Incident’ Author Missed Skipper’s View | Military.com

www.military.com

“It appears to me it was not a case of mistaken identity. I think that it’s about time that the state of Israel and the United States government provide the crewmembers of the Liberty and the rest of the American people the facts of what happened.”

Cristol was familiar with McGonagle’s first statement, at Arlington, saying in his book that he agrees with the captain that the U.S. should release any remaining documents on the matter.

But a year later McGonagle made his point even more clearly in an open letter to President Bill Clinton, who was rumored to be considering releasing Israeli spy Jonathan Pollard. Pollard was a Navy analyst who sold tens of thousands of classified secrets to Israel.

McGonagle told Clinton that Pollard should not be released to Israel “until and unless the Government of Israel acknowledges, in writing and publicly, that the Government of Israel's armed forces (air and naval) deliberately attacked [the USS Liberty].”

So you're doubling down on your ignorance. The Israelis halted the Egyptian advance after just three days and then mounted a devastating counter attack. They encircled the main Egyptian army and regained the Sinai. There was literally nothing between them and Cairo. They could have wiped out the entire Egyptian Third Army but chose to allow it to surrender.

You left out the part where the US had to rush them a bunch of replacement tanks from Germany to replace all the ones they lost to Sager Missiles. Or that the Israels withdrew their front line in the Sinai after the war to a more defensible position before bartering the Sinai away at Camp David.

The Israelis still held the Sinai at Camp David in 1978 because they had regained it during the Yom Kippur War and had held it since then with no problems. They'd even begun building settlements in the Sinai.

But they realized it was not worth it, didn't they? Something that they could barter away to Sadat before Sadat's own people offed him for treason.

And the intercepts too? Were the Moon landings faked too? Were the WTC towers brought down by controlled demolitions from explosives that were planted in the towers before the planes hit? Was Princess Diana killed by the Secret Team?

Mormon Mike, changing the ******* subject when he can't make his point.

99% of all scholars. And, do you not even know that Israel officially apologized for the accident and paid compensation to the families? Or did your jihadist/neo-Nazi/woke Israel-bashing sources not mention that fact?

Apology not accepted.

Read: Although you've taken stabs at (lamely) explaining other friendly fire incidents,

Why do I get the feeling you never actually served in the military, you Armchair General, you!

"Simply no way"??? Was there "simply no way" that two American fighter pilots could have failed to notice any of the American flags prominently displayed on the Black Hawk helicopters

Um, how big where those flag markings? While I never saw a Blackhawk during my time in the army, here's a picture of one. I don't see a flag.

Oh, here's a picture of a HIND 24.

Yeah, I can see how they get things mixed up.

Now... when I was in the service, they had a demonstration for us on friendly and enemy armor.

They had five tank models set up on the range, a mixture of Soviet and NATO models. Each soldier was taken aside and told which ones to shoot based on recognition.

I did a little better than most, but I still would have mistakenly fired on a British Centurion.

 

[mikegriffith1]

Here is one of the best scholarly online articles on the USS Liberty incident (LINK). Titled "The USS Liberty: Case Closed," it was written by Michael Oren about 20 years ago, soon after most of the declassified records on the incident were released. It's about a 10-15-minute read with over 50 footnotes.

EXCERPTS:

With the recent declassification of these documents in the United States and Israel, however, researchers have gained access to a wealth of primary sources - Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and U.S. military records, Israeli diplomatic correspondence, and memoranda from both the State Department and the White House. With the aid of these materials, the attack on the Liberty can now be reconstructed virtually minute-by-minute and with remarkable detail. The picture that emerges is not one of crime at all, nor even of criminal negligence, but of a string of failed communications, human errors, unfortunate coincidences and equipment failures on both the American and Israeli sides - the kind of tragic, senseless mistake that is all too common in the thick of war. . . .

At 5:55 a.m. on June 8, Cmdr. Uri Meretz, a naval observer aboard an Israel Air Force (IAF) reconnaissance plane, noted what he believed to be an American supply vessel, designated GTR-5, seventy miles west of the Gaza coast. At Israeli naval headquarters in Haifa, staff officers fixed the location of the ship with a red marker, indicating "unidentified," on their control board. Research in Jane's Fighting Ships, however, established the vessel's identity as "the electromagnetic audio-surveillance ship of the United States, the Liberty." The marker was changed to green, for "neutral." Another sighting of the ship - "gray, bulky, with its bridge amidships" - was made by an Israeli fighter aircraft at 9:00 a.m., twenty miles north of El-Arish, on the Sinai coast, which had fallen to Israeli forces the day before.18 Neither of these reports made mention of the 5-by-8-foot American flag which, according to the ship's crewmen, was flying from the Liberty's starboard halyard.

The crew would also testify later that six IAF aircraft subsequently flew over the ship, giving them ample opportunity to identify its nationality. Israel Air Force reports, however, make no further mention of the Liberty.19 There may indeed have been additional Israeli overflights, but the IAF pilots were not looking for the Liberty. Their target was Egyptian submarines, which had been spotted off the coast. At 11:00 a.m., while the hunt for Egyptian submarines was on, the officer on duty at Israel's naval headquarters, Capt. Avraham Lunz, concluded his shift. In accordance with procedures, he removed the Liberty's green marker on the grounds that it was already five hours old and no longer accurate.20

Then, at 11:24, a terrific explosion rocked the shores of El-Arish. The blast was clearly heard by the men on the Liberty's bridge, who had been navigating according to the town's tallest minaret, and who also noted a thick pall of smoke wafting toward them. In El-Arish itself, Israeli forces were convinced they were being bombarded from the sea, and the IDF Southern Command reported sighting two unidentified vessels close offshore. Though the explosion probably resulted from an ammunition dump fire, that fact was unknown at the time, and both Egyptian and Israeli sources had reported shelling of the area by Egyptian warships the previous day. There was therefore good reason to conclude that the Egyptian navy had trained its guns on Sinai.

 

[JoeB131]

Is your argument now that they mistook the Liberty for a Submarine? This is your argument.

 

[mikegriffith1]

Is your argument now that they mistook the Liberty for a Submarine? This is your argument.

Is someone hacking into JoeB131's account and trying to make him look like a total clod? Or is this really you, JoeB131, and are you're just making another jaw-dropping argument based on your apparent struggle with reading comprehension?

No, no one is saying that the Liberty was mistaken for a submarine. Sheesh. I'm baffled how you could actually misread Oren's point so badly. I don't know how to phrase it much more clearly than Oren does. But, let me try to simplify his point as much as I can so that perhaps you can finally grasp it:

Oren is saying that some Israeli planes may have flown over the Liberty after the Liberty had been reconned earlier by the three Israeli planes that reported the Liberty's presence, but that the later planes were not reconning the Liberty but were flying toward a location where Egyptian submarines had been reported and were flying over the Liberty merely by chance on their way there. Can you understand the difference between a coincidental unrelated overflight and a recon?

That's why the later planes did not report seeing the Liberty. Their mission had nothing to do with the Liberty. They were flying at top speed to get to the area where Egyptian subs had been reported. There's a good chance they did not even notice the Liberty.

But, let me guess: The vast Zionist conspiracy that supposedly has a firm grip on the U.S. Government not only faked the Hatzor Tower transcripts but also destroyed the transcripts of the later planes that overflew the Liberty and invented the cover story that they were looking for Egyptian subs! Yes? Huh?

And I see you're still doubling down on your gaffe that the Israelis were "so anxious" to give up the Sinai at the Camp David negotiations. Well, Jihad JoeB131, if you ever move beyond your radical Muslim/neo-Nazi/woke sources, you'll discover that every single scholarly book on the Camp David Peace Accords discusses the fact that the Israelis were extremely reluctant to give up the Sinai and that it took enormous pressure from Carter and concessions from Egypt to finally persuade them to do so.

 

[LA RAM FAN]

the good old government of Israel.

defy Israel and lose an Airliner.

Defy Israel - Lose an Airliner

The PATTERN of "motive, means & opportunity" -- combined with the subsequent coverups and absurd "official explanations" -- all point to the horrible handiwork of "the usual suspects."

realnewsandhistory.com

 

[JoeB131]

And I see you're still doubling down on your gaffe that the Israelis were "so anxious" to give up the Sinai at the Camp David negotiations. Well, Jihad JoeB131, if you ever move beyond your radical Muslim/neo-Nazi/woke sources, you'll discover that every single scholarly book on the Camp David Peace Accords discusses the fact that the Israelis were extremely reluctant to give up the Sinai and that it took enormous pressure from Carter and concessions from Egypt to finally persuade them to do so.

We can tell you've never done business with a Jew before. Every deal is pretty much like extracting their teeth. But Begin knew that the Sinai was indefensible.

Is someone hacking into JoeB131's account and trying to make him look like a total clod? Or is this really you, JoeB131, and are you're just making another jaw-dropping argument based on your apparent struggle with reading comprehension?

Naw, guy, if I wanted to do that, I'd say shit like OJ was innocent, and they were using mind control on Sirhan Sirhan, or the Rape of Nanking wasn't that bad. That's being a clod.

 

[mikegriffith1]

We can tell you've never done business with a Jew before. Every deal is pretty much like extracting their teeth.

Wow! Well, so you're an anti-Semitic racist, in addition to being a rabid Israel hater.

But Begin knew that the Sinai was indefensible.

LOL! So you spew another howler to defend your previous howler that the Israelis were "so willing" to give up the Sinai at Camp David! This is another example of your refusal to ever admit you're wrong.

If the Sinai was indefensible, why did the Israelis start building settlements in it? Why didn't the Egyptians make another attempt to retake the Sinai after the Yom Kippur War? Gee, maybe because the first time they tried they got stymied after just three days, then suffered a devastating counter attack, then had to suffer the humiliation of surrendering an entire army in the Sinai, and were rendered so prostrate that the Israelis could have walked into Cairo?

Naw, guy, if I wanted to do that, I'd say *&$%^ like OJ was innocent, and they were using mind control on Sirhan Sirhan, or the Rape of Nanking wasn't that bad. That's being a clod.

In short, you're not going to admit that you blunderingly misread, or dishonestly misrepresented, Oren's point about the Israeli planes that may have overflown the Liberty after the three previous Israeli planes reconned the ship. Rather than just admit your blunder/falsehood, you duck and dodge by repeating your invalid or misleading spin on three unrelated issues.

So let's summarize your paranoid anti-Semitic, anti-Israeli nonsense on the USS Liberty incident:

-- A giant Zionist conspiracy has caused the U.S. Government to hide the truth about the incident.

-- All the tower-pilot transcripts that were released have been faked, presumably under the influence of your mythical worldwide Zionist conspiracy.

-- The Israelis knew the Liberty was an American ship and attacked it anyway in the hope of blaming the attack on the Egyptians in order to draw America into the war, even though Israel had already won the war. Yeah, makes perfect sense.

-- The Israeli planes that reconned the Liberty must have known it was an American ship, even though they never got closer than 2 miles to the ship.

-- The Israeli pilots who later attacked the Liberty must have known it was an American ship, even though they were flying at several hundred miles per hour, and even though the Liberty resembled an Egyptian ship in two key respects.

-- The Israeli torpedo boats' attack on the Liberty is further proof that the Israelis knew the ship was American, never mind that the Israeli boats did not fire on the Liberty when they approached it but merely asked the Liberty to identify itself, and never mind that the Israeli boats did not fire until the Liberty mistakenly fired at them first.

-- It means nothing that the Israelis genuinely believed that an Egyptian naval ship had just bombarded El Arish and that the Liberty was in a location that qualified it as a candidate for the ship that had attacked El Arish. Nah, never mind all that.

-- The Black Hawk Incident does not prove that the Liberty attack could have been an accident, even though the American jets that downed the Black Hawk choppers flew within a few hundred feet of the choppers, even though the choppers were clearly marked with American flags, and even though there are clear differences between Black Hawks and Hinds. And just never you mind that to this day some of the families of the foreign passengers who died on the Black Hawks do not accept the friendly fire explanation but believe foul play was involved because they don't see how the fighter pilots could not have realized the choppers were American, and because they can't believe that the AWACS operators innocently failed to tell the fighter pilots that two choppers had IFF'd as friendly in the same area where the fighter pilots believed they had seen two Hind choppers.

As much as part of me would enjoy continuing to demolish you on this issue, I'm not going to spend more time in this thread. I think you've already proven that you have no credibility on this subject and that you're an anti-Semitic racist and an ugly Israel hater. I think the vast majority of people who read this thread will conclude that the Liberty attack was a tragic accident, just as 99% of all scholars who've examined the incident have concluded it was an accident, and just as every U.S. and Israeli investigation has concluded it was accident.

 

[Blaster]

Is your argument now that they mistook the Liberty for a Submarine? This is your argument.

The Liberty was spying on Israel.

 

[JoeB131]

Wow! Well, so you're an anti-Semitic racist, in addition to being a rabid Israel hater.

No, Religion isn't a race. I also despise Mormons for the same reason I despise Jews... any religion that calls the rest of us "Gentiles" can't be trusted.

If the Sinai was indefensible, why did the Israelis start building settlements in it?

Because, that's what they do... they try to grab things up. But they realized after the Yom Kippur war they were overextended and they knew it.

In short, you're not going to admit that you blunderingly misread, or dishonestly misrepresented, Oren's point about the Israeli planes that may have overflown the Liberty after the three previous Israeli planes reconned the ship. Rather than just admit your blunder/falsehood, you duck and dodge by repeating your invalid or misleading spin on three unrelated issues.

No, your comment was just stupid... if they were looking for submarines, they still should have been able to tell, "Oh, that's not a submarine. probably a spy ship, judging by the huge-ass antennas."

-- A giant Zionist conspiracy has caused the U.S. Government to hide the truth about the incident.

Uh, get real guy, the ******* Zionists own our government. Seriously, they have m ost of COngress kissing their ass, and they spend millions trying to defeat the four ladies in the Squad because the poor dears can't stand any criticism.

-- All the tower-pilot transcripts that were released have been faked, presumably under the influence of your mythical worldwide Zionist conspiracy.

Transcripts are written records, not recordings. Where are the recordings?

-- The Black Hawk Incident does not prove that the Liberty attack could have been an accident, even though the American jets that downed the Black Hawk choppers flew within a few hundred feet of the choppers, even though the choppers were clearly marked with American flags, and even though there are clear differences between Black Hawks and Hinds.

A Blackhawk Helicopter is only 65 feet long. The USS Liberty was 456 feet long. Happy to have cleared that up for you, you seemed a little dopey, even for a Mormon.

 

[Dante]

I had a book about it and never got around to reading it. More than likely i did myself a favor because a handful of me probably knew what really happened.

In 1982, US Representative Pete McCloskey was approached by a former Israeli senior lead pilot who admitted that he had recognized the Liberty as an American naval vessel during the attack, but was told to ignore the U.S. flag and continue his attack.[41][42] Upon refusing to do so and returning to base, he was arrested. McCloskey remained a committed supporter of the "USS Liberty Veterans Association." He was planning to release a book in support of Liberty survivors titled The Most Infamous Order Ever Given: The Betrayal of the USS Liberty, which would have had many supporting documents in it.

 

[Dante]

The Liberty was spying on Israel.

Never allow facts to get in the way of a narrative?

O'Tay:
Page Not Found. Thank Gawd 4 Wayback Machine: https://stationhypo.com/2022/06/08/10689/

Timeline of Events: Remembering the Attack on USS LIBERTY

June 8, 1967, Israeli forces attack the USS Liberty. They kill 34 American servicemen, wounding 171 others. It will be the highest casualty rate ever inflicted on a U.S. naval vessel, with 7 out of every 10 crew members killed or injured. It will also be the only peacetime attack on a U.S. naval vessel that, to this day, the Congress of the United States of America formally refuses to investigate. The facts, as known, are as follow:


24 May 1967. U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) orders USSLiberty, an intelligence-gathering vessel, to depart Abidjan for eastern Mediterranean, via Rota, Spain.

1 June 1967. Commanded by Capt. William McGonagle, Liberty arrives at Rota to load technical support material and supplies.

2 June 1967. Liberty departs Rota at top speed of 18 knots en route to a point 13 miles off the Gaza Strip, well within international waters.

5 June 1967, 7:45 (all times cited are local Liberty time). Israel attacks Egypt, simultaneously putting out false reports that Egypt had attacked first. Captain McGonagle asks Vice Admiral William Martin at Sixth Fleet headquarters to send a destroyer as an armed escort and auxiliary communication center, noting that Liberty’s “self-defense capability limited to four .50 caliber machine guns and small arms.”

6 June 1967. Admiral Martin replies “Liberty is clearly marked United States ship in international waters, not a participant in the conflict and not a reasonable subject for attack by any nation . . . Request for escort denied.”

7 June 1967, shortly before midnight. Office of the U.S. Defense Attaché in Tel Aviv sends coded message to U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) that Israel intends to attack theLiberty if her course is not changed.

8 June 1967:

0030: U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff Joint Reconnaissance Center (JRC) orders Liberty to go from 12½ to 20 nautical miles off coast. An error by the U.S. Army Communications Center at the Pentagon results in message never reaching the ship.

0130: JRC orders Liberty to approach no closer than 100 miles to the coasts of Egypt and Israel. Due to misrouting it will take 16½ hours for message to reach Liberty.

0600: Israeli Nord 2501 Noratlas (flying boxcar) reconnoiters Liberty.

0603: Reconnaissance aircraft reports to Israeli naval headquarters that “GTR-5” is written on the ship, identifying it as an NSA intelligence vessel.

0720: Fresh American flag is raised.

0900: Jet aircraft approaches Liberty, then veers off towards Gaza. Liberty crewmen unable to identify markings.

1000: Two unmarked, rocket-armed, delta-winged jets circle Liberty three times. Liberty officers can count rockets and see the pilots, but see no identifying marks on the plane. The jets radio Israeli headquarters that the ship is flying an American flag.

1030: Israeli “flying boxcar” with Israeli markings circles Liberty at about 200 feet. Crew member Larry Weaver says, “I was actually able to wave to the co-pilot, a fellow on the right-hand side of the plane. He waved back, and actually smiled at me.”

1055: Pinchas Pinchasy, naval liaison officer at Israeli air force headquarters, reports to Naval Headquarters that the ship cruising slowly off El Arish is “an electromagnetic audio-surveillance ship of the U.S. Navy, named Liberty, whose marking was GTR-5.”

1100 & 1130: Israeli reconnaissance aircraft again circle Liberty.

1205: Three Israeli motor torpedo boats leave Ashdod at high speed headed toward Liberty. They are followed by Israeli air force fighters, loaded with 30mm cannon ammunition, rockets, and napalm.

1215 & 1245: Israeli reconnaissance aircraft again circle Liberty.

1341: Israeli torpedo boats spot Liberty and call for an immediate air strike.

1358: Two unmarked delta-winged Mirage jets attack Liberty. After taking out gun mounts, they target ship’s antennae and bridge with heat-seeking missiles.

1405: Three unmarked Dassault Mystère IIIC jets attack with napalm and rockets. Ship tries to contact Sixth Fleet headquarters, but five of Liberty’s six shore circuits are jammed. Radio operator manages to send distress signal from Captain McGonagle: “Under attack by unidentified jet aircraft, require immediate assistance.” Attack lasts approximately 22 minutes, involving 30 to 35 sorties, killing nine men and wounding around 60. Israeli pilot reports to base: “Great, wonderful, she’s burning, she’s burning.”

1409: Captain Joe Tully of the USS Saratoga acknowledges call for help, dispatches four F-4 Phantom jets, and informs Liberty that help is on the way. Within minutes U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert MacNamara orders rescue jets to return: “Tell Sixth Fleet to get those aircraft back immediately.” Rear Admiral Geis relays message and tells them to re-launch jets in 90 minutes.

1424: Three French-built 62-ton Israeli motor torpedo boats approach Liberty in attack formation. Because the Israeli fighters had destroyed the American flag, Captain McGonagle orders the signalman to hoist the “holiday ensign,” the largest flag the ship has.

1435: Torpedo boats launch five German-made 19-inch torpedoes at Liberty. One torpedo strikes starboard directly into NSA area, accounting for 25 of the 34 men who would be killed. Torpedo boats then circle, machine-gunning the ship with armor-piercing projectiles for another 40 minutes.

1450: Commander of Sixth Fleet orders carriers USS America and USS Saratoga to send aircraft to defend Liberty.

1500: NSA Sigint Command Center receives first notice of the attack from either the America or Saratoga: “USS Liberty has been reportedly torpedoed by unknown source in Med near 32N 33E. Request examine all communications for possible reaction/reflections and report accordingly.”

1505: Message sent to Liberty from Sixth Fleet: “Sending aircraft to cover you. Surface units on the way.” Liberty is off the air and does not receive the message.

1511: First “official” notice that Liberty is under attack reaches National Military Command Center in Washington.

 

[Dante]

USS L.V.A. | Never Forget USS Liberty | June 8 1967

Learn the true story of USS Liberty's 1967 attack, honor the 34 fallen, and support veterans. Discover resources, events, and ways to get involved in preserving this historic legacy.

ussliberty.org

 

[Dante]

352. Diplomatic Note From Secretary of State Rusk to the Israeli Ambassador (Harman)1
Washington, June 10, 1967.

The Secretary of State presents his compliments to His Excellency the Ambassador of Israel and has the honor to refer to the Ambassador’s Note of June 10, 1967 concerning the attacks by Israeli aircraft and torpedo boats on the United States naval vessel U.S.S. Liberty, which were carried out shortly after 1400 and 1430 hours local time, respectively, on June 8, 1967 while the U.S.S. Liberty was engaged in peaceful activities in international waters.

At the time of the attack, the U.S.S Liberty was flying the American flag, and its identification was clearly indicated in large white letters and numerals on its hull. It was broad daylight and the weather conditions were excellent. Experience demonstrates that both the flag and the identification number of the vessel were readily visible from the air.

Beginning at about 0515 hours local time on June 8, 1967, and at intervals thereafter prior to the first attack, aircraft believed to be Israeli circled the U.S.S. Liberty on a number of occasions.

Accordingly, there is every reason to believe that the U.S.S. Liberty was or should have been identified, or at least her nationality determined, prior to the attack. In these circumstances, the later military attack by Israeli aircraft on the U.S.S. Liberty is quite literally incomprehensible. As a minimum, the attack must be condemned as an act of military irresponsibility reflecting reckless disregard for human life.

 

[Dante]

We and the Japanese fought for YEARS and now we're Besties.

We and the Italians fought for YEARS and now we're Besties.

We and the Germans fought for YEARS and now we're Besties.

We and the Israelis only fought for a FEW MINUTES more than a half-century ago over a bad call.

And now we're Besties.

Sux to be you, Achmed...

"Bad call?"
Facts matter:

1505: Message sent to Liberty from Sixth Fleet: “Sending aircraft to cover you. Surface units on the way.” Liberty is off the air and does not receive the message.

1511: First “official” notice that Liberty is under attack reaches National Military Command Center in Washington.

1515: After the order to “prepare to abandon ship” comes over the loudspeaker system, the lifeboats are lowered into the water. Israeli torpedo boats move in closer and fire on them, as well as those still on deck, making them all unusable. “I watched with horror as the floating life rafts were riddled with holes,” recalled Lieutenant Lloyd Painter, in charge of the evacuation. Said Petty Officer Rowley, who also witnessed the event: “They didn’t want anyone to live.” After destroying the life rafts, the Israeli boats departed. Next, two Israeli SA-321 Super Frelon Hornet assault helicopters carrying soldiers in battle dress circle ship several times, then depart.

1520: Commander of Sixth Fleet announces that 12 aircraft will be launched at 1545 to arrive nearLiberty at 1715.

1532: Walt Rostow, President Johnson’s Special Assistant for National Security Affairs, notifies the president of the attack.

1536: Israeli torpedo boats return, then leave.

1545: USS Saragota and America launch second rescue flights.

1555: Liberty regains its transmitter; still has no receiver.

1600: Liberty transmits: “Flash, flash, flash. I pass in the blind. We are under attack by aircraft and high-speed surface craft.” Deputy Director Louis Tordella is informed by Deputy Director of Joint Reconnaissance Center, Captain Vineyard, that “consideration was then being given by some unnamed Washington authorities to sink theLiberty in order that newspaper men would be unable to photograph her and thus inflame public opinion against the Israelis.” Tordella makes an “impolite” comment about the idea, writes a memo of the conversation for the record, and stores it away.

1605: Liberty transmits: “Request immediate assistance. Torpedo hit starboard side.”

1614: American embassy relays Israeli apology to White House, Department of State, and Sixth Fleet that an unidentified “maybe Navy” ship has been erroneously attacked.

1615: Two unidentified jets approach Liberty, then veer off.

1630: Israeli jets and three torpedo boats return, offer assistance. Captain McGonagle refuses their help. Boats leave after 12 minutes.

1639: Secretary of Defense McNamara again orders rescue planes recalled; order is confirmed by President Johnson because “we are not going to embarrass an ally.” Naval Air Attaché at U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv, Commander Ernest Castle, is summoned to Israeli Defense Forces headquarters.

1717: Deputy Secretary of Defense orders that all news releases on attack are to be made in Washington. Soon after, Israeli helicopter approaches Liberty and requests permission to land. McGonagle refuses. Helicopter departs.

1729: Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, commander of the Sixth Fleet in the Mediterranean, protests decision to recall rescue planes to Secretary of Defense McNamara. At that point President Johnson comes on the phone and says he didn’t care if the ship sunk, he would not embarrass his allies. Admiral Geis tells Lt. Commander David Lewis, head of the Liberty’s NSA group, of the remark, but asks him not to repeat it until after he dies. It is a promise Lewis will honor.

1915: Captain McGonagle, wounded and exhausted, dictates first report on estimated casualties: 10 dead; 15 severely wounded; 75 total wounded; undetermined missing. His estimates would prove low.

9 June 1967:

After midnight: Soviet guided missile destroyer sends flashing-light message in English: “Do you need help?” Liberty responds: “No thank you.” Soviets answer: “I will stand by in case you need me.”

0600: USS Navy destroyers Davis and Massey arrive.

Mid-morning: Dead and wounded are evacuated by helicopter.

1450: Israeli Lt. Col. Michael Bloch telephones Commander Castle that Liberty, because it was not flying a flag, had been mistaken for the Egyptian supply ship El Queseir. State Department assures Congress that attack was accidental.

BUT: facts suggest otherwise.

Historical Documents - Office of the Historian

history.state.gov 3.0 shell

history.state.gov

24 May 1967. U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) orders USSLiberty, an intelligence-gathering vessel, to depart Abidjan for eastern Mediterranean, via Rota, Spain.

1 June 1967. Commanded by Capt. William McGonagle, Liberty arrives at Rota to load technical support material and supplies.

2 June 1967. Liberty departs Rota at top speed of 18 knots en route to a point 13 miles off the Gaza Strip, well within international waters.

5 June 1967, 7:45 (all times cited are local Liberty time). Israel attacks Egypt, simultaneously putting out false reports that Egypt had attacked first. Captain McGonagle asks Vice Admiral William Martin at Sixth Fleet headquarters to send a destroyer as an armed escort and auxiliary communication center, noting that Liberty’s “self-defense capability limited to four .50 caliber machine guns and small arms.”

6 June 1967. Admiral Martin replies “Liberty is clearly marked United States ship in international waters, not a participant in the conflict and not a reasonable subject for attack by any nation . . . Request for escort denied.”

7 June 1967, shortly before midnight. Office of the U.S. Defense Attaché in Tel Aviv sends coded message to U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) that Israel intends to attack theLiberty if her course is not changed.

8 June 1967:

0030: U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff Joint Reconnaissance Center (JRC) orders Liberty to go from 12½ to 20 nautical miles off coast. An error by the U.S. Army Communications Center at the Pentagon results in message never reaching the ship.

0130: JRC orders Liberty to approach no closer than 100 miles to the coasts of Egypt and Israel. Due to misrouting it will take 16½ hours for message to reach Liberty.

0600: Israeli Nord 2501 Noratlas (flying boxcar) reconnoiters Liberty.

0603: Reconnaissance aircraft reports to Israeli naval headquarters that “GTR-5” is written on the ship, identifying it as an NSA intelligence vessel.

0720: Fresh American flag is raised.

 

[Dante]

You talk like Jews really disgust you. I served in the Army and do not recall Jews there. I never put any thought to this. But my golly, you really hate them.

 

[Kondor3]

"Bad call?"
Facts matter:

1505: Message sent to Liberty from Sixth Fleet: “Sending aircraft to cover you. Surface units on the way.” Liberty is off the air and does not receive the message.

1511: First “official” notice that Liberty is under attack reaches National Military Command Center in Washington.

1515: After the order to “prepare to abandon ship” comes over the loudspeaker system, the lifeboats are lowered into the water. Israeli torpedo boats move in closer and fire on them, as well as those still on deck, making them all unusable. “I watched with horror as the floating life rafts were riddled with holes,” recalled Lieutenant Lloyd Painter, in charge of the evacuation. Said Petty Officer Rowley, who also witnessed the event: “They didn’t want anyone to live.” After destroying the life rafts, the Israeli boats departed. Next, two Israeli SA-321 Super Frelon Hornet assault helicopters carrying soldiers in battle dress circle ship several times, then depart.

1520: Commander of Sixth Fleet announces that 12 aircraft will be launched at 1545 to arrive nearLiberty at 1715.

1532: Walt Rostow, President Johnson’s Special Assistant for National Security Affairs, notifies the president of the attack.

1536: Israeli torpedo boats return, then leave.

1545: USS Saragota and America launch second rescue flights.

1555: Liberty regains its transmitter; still has no receiver.

1600: Liberty transmits: “Flash, flash, flash. I pass in the blind. We are under attack by aircraft and high-speed surface craft.” Deputy Director Louis Tordella is informed by Deputy Director of Joint Reconnaissance Center, Captain Vineyard, that “consideration was then being given by some unnamed Washington authorities to sink theLiberty in order that newspaper men would be unable to photograph her and thus inflame public opinion against the Israelis.” Tordella makes an “impolite” comment about the idea, writes a memo of the conversation for the record, and stores it away.

1605: Liberty transmits: “Request immediate assistance. Torpedo hit starboard side.”

1614: American embassy relays Israeli apology to White House, Department of State, and Sixth Fleet that an unidentified “maybe Navy” ship has been erroneously attacked.

1615: Two unidentified jets approach Liberty, then veer off.

1630: Israeli jets and three torpedo boats return, offer assistance. Captain McGonagle refuses their help. Boats leave after 12 minutes.

1639: Secretary of Defense McNamara again orders rescue planes recalled; order is confirmed by President Johnson because “we are not going to embarrass an ally.” Naval Air Attaché at U.S. embassy in Tel Aviv, Commander Ernest Castle, is summoned to Israeli Defense Forces headquarters.

1717: Deputy Secretary of Defense orders that all news releases on attack are to be made in Washington. Soon after, Israeli helicopter approaches Liberty and requests permission to land. McGonagle refuses. Helicopter departs.

1729: Rear Admiral Lawrence Geis, commander of the Sixth Fleet in the Mediterranean, protests decision to recall rescue planes to Secretary of Defense McNamara. At that point President Johnson comes on the phone and says he didn’t care if the ship sunk, he would not embarrass his allies. Admiral Geis tells Lt. Commander David Lewis, head of the Liberty’s NSA group, of the remark, but asks him not to repeat it until after he dies. It is a promise Lewis will honor.

1915: Captain McGonagle, wounded and exhausted, dictates first report on estimated casualties: 10 dead; 15 severely wounded; 75 total wounded; undetermined missing. His estimates would prove low.

9 June 1967:

After midnight: Soviet guided missile destroyer sends flashing-light message in English: “Do you need help?” Liberty responds: “No thank you.” Soviets answer: “I will stand by in case you need me.”

0600: USS Navy destroyers Davis and Massey arrive.

Mid-morning: Dead and wounded are evacuated by helicopter.

1450: Israeli Lt. Col. Michael Bloch telephones Commander Castle that Liberty, because it was not flying a flag, had been mistaken for the Egyptian supply ship El Queseir. State Department assures Congress that attack was accidental.

BUT: facts suggest otherwise.

Historical Documents - Office of the Historian

history.state.gov 3.0 shell

history.state.gov

24 May 1967. U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff (JCS) orders USSLiberty, an intelligence-gathering vessel, to depart Abidjan for eastern Mediterranean, via Rota, Spain.

1 June 1967. Commanded by Capt. William McGonagle, Liberty arrives at Rota to load technical support material and supplies.

2 June 1967. Liberty departs Rota at top speed of 18 knots en route to a point 13 miles off the Gaza Strip, well within international waters.

5 June 1967, 7:45 (all times cited are local Liberty time). Israel attacks Egypt, simultaneously putting out false reports that Egypt had attacked first. Captain McGonagle asks Vice Admiral William Martin at Sixth Fleet headquarters to send a destroyer as an armed escort and auxiliary communication center, noting that Liberty’s “self-defense capability limited to four .50 caliber machine guns and small arms.”

6 June 1967. Admiral Martin replies “Liberty is clearly marked United States ship in international waters, not a participant in the conflict and not a reasonable subject for attack by any nation . . . Request for escort denied.”

7 June 1967, shortly before midnight. Office of the U.S. Defense Attaché in Tel Aviv sends coded message to U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) that Israel intends to attack theLiberty if her course is not changed.

8 June 1967:

0030: U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff Joint Reconnaissance Center (JRC) orders Liberty to go from 12½ to 20 nautical miles off coast. An error by the U.S. Army Communications Center at the Pentagon results in message never reaching the ship.

0130: JRC orders Liberty to approach no closer than 100 miles to the coasts of Egypt and Israel. Due to misrouting it will take 16½ hours for message to reach Liberty.

0600: Israeli Nord 2501 Noratlas (flying boxcar) reconnoiters Liberty.

0603: Reconnaissance aircraft reports to Israeli naval headquarters that “GTR-5” is written on the ship, identifying it as an NSA intelligence vessel.

0720: Fresh American flag is raised.

Yer swingin' after the bell...

Nobody questions that the Israelis phukked-up that day...

That was then... this is Now...

"To err is human... to forgive is divine."

Both the Germans and the Japanese were mortal enemies within Living Memory... and now we're the best of friends and allies...

Israel has morphed from a casual on-and-off pseudo-ally to a fierce friend and ally and bulwark against IslamoNazism...

Remembering those lost on the USS Liberty... our firm alliance with Israel has long-since put that day into the rear-view mirror...

The old angst over this no longer has any teeth... the enemies of Israel and the Jews now need to find a different approach...

 

[Cellblock2429]

Yesterday Candace Owens interviewed Phil Tourney, a survivor of the attack on the USS Liberty by Israeli jets and attack boats. I read Tourney's book "Erasing the Liberty" about 10 years ago.

Owens' interview is spot on and most informative.



It turns out the first Israeli POTUS was Lyndon Johnson. As the Liberty came under attack a Navy carrier launched Phantoms to defend the Liberty. LBJ ordered the aircraft back to the carrier. Quite a shame.

/----/ I was a teenager when that happened. I don't recall LBJ recalling the Phantoms. I'm not saying it didn't happen, just that I don't recall.

 

[Dante]

Yer swingin' after the bell...

Nobody questions that the Israelis phukked-up that day...

"To err is human... to forgive is divine."

Israel has morphed from a casual on-and-off pseudo-ally to a fierce friend and ally and bulwark against IslamoNazism.

Erred?

What kind of bs apologist crap is that?

Dante has linked to the facts. Screw your multiple narratives excusing and covering up for Israel. Be an American first

people had the page taken down, but we have the Wayback Machine

Remembering the Attack on USS LIBERTY

On June 8 1967, the USS LIBERTY (AGTR-5) was attacked in international water by Israeli forces killing 34 Americans and wounding another 171. Seven out of every 10 crew members was either kil…

web.archive.org