UAW and The Big Three Have A Long Distance To Travel For A Deal!

JimofPennsylvan

Platinum Member
Jun 6, 2007
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On the UAW Union labor disputes with the Big Three U.S. Automakers both sides seem to be very unreasonable and not on a path that is good for the country. The UAW asking for a forty percent wage hike is totally out of line it was only 2009 when the American people were facing realistically all three of these automakers going out of business and the loss of this vital industry for the nation and the future for this industry holds many storm clouds Washington Is Forcing EV vehicles on the industry and it is unclear whether they will be affordable and meet the needs of the American people so the UAW needs to enable the automakers to be competitive so they can survive and prosper long term. On the other hand the automakers have to be considerate of their workers, inflation since the pandemic has really walloped ordinary Americans whether it be food or housing costs the automakers make a very good profit they should see their workers have a good middle class life!

To this end the automakers have offered a twenty percent wage increase over a four and a half year contract what is fair based on current wages and the bite of inflation and what the prosperous automakers should be doing for their workers is to give their workers an immediate twenty to fifteen percent raise and over the course of the four year contract give them a yearly COLA based on the consumer price index (for it is not clear inflation is under control at least through 2024 and 2025). Further the contract should front load the wage levels at two to three year intervals to help the workers have a higher standard of living earlier. The following is based on media reports what I mean here by front load is that currently a UAW full-time worker starts out at $18.00/hour and over the course of eight years rises to $32.00/hour and it seems every year they get a bump I don't know the exact contract terms but let us say it is in equal amounts $1.75/hour increase every year. So theoretically and generally speaking if you paid the worker $$20.86/hr for the first three years and at the end of the third year raise it to $23.00/hour and at the end of the fifth year raise it to $26.75/hr and then at the end of the eighth raise it to $32/hr the company would not lose anything because it would equal the current arrangement. Now if the companies would be fair and raise all the current wage rates twenty percent and the final eighth year rate fifteen percent the pay level would be $25.00/hour to start and at the end of the third year it would be raised to $27.60/hr and at the end of the fifth year it would be raised to $32.10/hour and the final eighth year rate would be $36.80/hour which would be fair. The union calls this system a tier system but it really is a pay level system and the UAW condemns it as unfair because it argues that is treats people as second class persons because it results in workers doing the same work but getting paid different wages but that is not a fair and good analysis people should be compensated for their tenure at the business all the time, effort and their life they expended doing the work of the business that all this is compensating workers based on how much of their time and their life they have given to the business!

The UAW has made a lot of complaints about the automakers part time workers it is a bogus and not persuasive complaint. First off and most importantly union part-time workers become full-time after two years at GM and Ford, the UAW should require Stellantis to agree to such terms. Part-time workers give the automakers valuable ability to control their costs that should not be taken away from them. However, the prosperous automakers should pay them a decent livable wage currently they start at $16.00/hour they should be bumped up to $20.00/hour (what Stellantis has proposed) and at the end of their first year they should be bumped up to $21.25/hour and get the COLA raise every year over the length of the contract. The automakers calling these workers part-time workers is really a misnomer because they work full-time hours for the automaker, it is more accurate to call them non-permanent workers. Since they are working full-time for the employer after three months they should be able to participate fully in the automakers 401K plan and after six months of employment they should be able to participate fully in the automakers employer provided health insurance.

The UAW needs to drop this crazy idea of a four day, thirty-two hour work week, they operate in America and America has a long history where it is a prosperous country because it is a hard working and industrious country and its people are such UAW don't ruin the American character; the UAW is going to hurt America if it establishes such a precedent! It is a red herring and nonsense to say the threat of Artificial Intelligence mandates this, AI is a tool just like robotics it poses no significant threat in the near future to UAW jobs! The UAW needs to drop its demand of a defined pension plan the automakers cannot allow themselves to be saddled with such financial obligations of a pension program it will put them on a trajectory to bankruptcy no question. Along the same vein providing for workers in their retirement, this is the role of the 401K program and I don't know the details of the Big Three Automakers 401K plan but if it is like what is common in America's economy it is deeply flawed and the UAW should negotiate a fix until the Congress and the President do their job in this area and enact legislation which mandates this fix which I have advocated for many years. The common 401K program provides that the employer will match the portion of the wages the employee diverts from his or her wages into this investment account. for retirement up to a certain percentage of the employees overall wages, I think the current match of the automakers is 6.4 percent of the workers wages. The problem with the typical 401K program is that many employees cannot afford to put part of their wages in their 401K account so they miss out on the company match they miss out on this retirement money from their employer coming to them and since most employers don't have defined pension plans these workers when they reach retirement age have little retirement money and as America is seeing are facing real hardship and even homelessness. What the UAW should negotiate and Washington should mandate through legislation is that the employer (the automaker) must put eighty percent of the maximum it will match on the employee's contribution regardless of whether the employee puts any of the employee's wages into the 401k account not requiring one-hundred percent so as to leave some incentive for the employee to make a contribution. Finally on this issue the UAW would be prudent to negotiate that a significant portion like twenty-five percent of bonus and profit sharing checks workers get from the automaker get diverted into workers 401k program because money in this program grows tax free it is a very valuable way to build a retirement safety net.

The UAW needs to keep in mind Washington is forcing the U.S. auto industry on this big gamble to EVs the financial ramifications to U.S. automakers is a big unknown the conversion is going to a huge amount of money and it cannot be known whether there will be a good or profitable return on the investment. The automakers need to have the flexibility to cut things if they need to to survive. I don't think it is fair to preserve a right to strike if an automaker is closing down a plant unless the automakers is shipping that work to a right to work or non-unionized plant or outside the country. The UAW union especially their leadership should remember that the White House and the Democrat Party leadership is cheering you and they fully support you and will largely continue no matter what but ordinary Americans could turn on you if you act unreasonable and unfair ordinary Americans have a mixed feeling about Unions, school unions during the pandemic shut down schools way longer than they needed to resulting in significant harm to children that has left a lot of bad blood toward unions. The UAW is holding some good cards here and can win a good pot but don't get greedy because you could end up largely blowing it!
 
The big 3 are pricing themselves out of the market. Whether the UAW wins or caves won't change that.
 
On the UAW Union labor disputes with the Big Three U.S. Automakers both sides seem to be very unreasonable and not on a path that is good for the country. The UAW asking for a forty percent wage hike is totally out of line it was only 2009 when the American people were facing realistically all three of these automakers going out of business and the loss of this vital industry for the nation and the future for this industry holds many storm clouds Washington Is Forcing EV vehicles on the industry and it is unclear whether they will be affordable and meet the needs of the American people so the UAW needs to enable the automakers to be competitive so they can survive and prosper long term. On the other hand the automakers have to be considerate of their workers, inflation since the pandemic has really walloped ordinary Americans whether it be food or housing costs the automakers make a very good profit they should see their workers have a good middle class life!

To this end the automakers have offered a twenty percent wage increase over a four and a half year contract what is fair based on current wages and the bite of inflation and what the prosperous automakers should be doing for their workers is to give their workers an immediate twenty to fifteen percent raise and over the course of the four year contract give them a yearly COLA based on the consumer price index (for it is not clear inflation is under control at least through 2024 and 2025). Further the contract should front load the wage levels at two to three year intervals to help the workers have a higher standard of living earlier. The following is based on media reports what I mean here by front load is that currently a UAW full-time worker starts out at $18.00/hour and over the course of eight years rises to $32.00/hour and it seems every year they get a bump I don't know the exact contract terms but let us say it is in equal amounts $1.75/hour increase every year. So theoretically and generally speaking if you paid the worker $$20.86/hr for the first three years and at the end of the third year raise it to $23.00/hour and at the end of the fifth year raise it to $26.75/hr and then at the end of the eighth raise it to $32/hr the company would not lose anything because it would equal the current arrangement. Now if the companies would be fair and raise all the current wage rates twenty percent and the final eighth year rate fifteen percent the pay level would be $25.00/hour to start and at the end of the third year it would be raised to $27.60/hr and at the end of the fifth year it would be raised to $32.10/hour and the final eighth year rate would be $36.80/hour which would be fair. The union calls this system a tier system but it really is a pay level system and the UAW condemns it as unfair because it argues that is treats people as second class persons because it results in workers doing the same work but getting paid different wages but that is not a fair and good analysis people should be compensated for their tenure at the business all the time, effort and their life they expended doing the work of the business that all this is compensating workers based on how much of their time and their life they have given to the business!

The UAW has made a lot of complaints about the automakers part time workers it is a bogus and not persuasive complaint. First off and most importantly union part-time workers become full-time after two years at GM and Ford, the UAW should require Stellantis to agree to such terms. Part-time workers give the automakers valuable ability to control their costs that should not be taken away from them. However, the prosperous automakers should pay them a decent livable wage currently they start at $16.00/hour they should be bumped up to $20.00/hour (what Stellantis has proposed) and at the end of their first year they should be bumped up to $21.25/hour and get the COLA raise every year over the length of the contract. The automakers calling these workers part-time workers is really a misnomer because they work full-time hours for the automaker, it is more accurate to call them non-permanent workers. Since they are working full-time for the employer after three months they should be able to participate fully in the automakers 401K plan and after six months of employment they should be able to participate fully in the automakers employer provided health insurance.

The UAW needs to drop this crazy idea of a four day, thirty-two hour work week, they operate in America and America has a long history where it is a prosperous country because it is a hard working and industrious country and its people are such UAW don't ruin the American character; the UAW is going to hurt America if it establishes such a precedent! It is a red herring and nonsense to say the threat of Artificial Intelligence mandates this, AI is a tool just like robotics it poses no significant threat in the near future to UAW jobs! The UAW needs to drop its demand of a defined pension plan the automakers cannot allow themselves to be saddled with such financial obligations of a pension program it will put them on a trajectory to bankruptcy no question. Along the same vein providing for workers in their retirement, this is the role of the 401K program and I don't know the details of the Big Three Automakers 401K plan but if it is like what is common in America's economy it is deeply flawed and the UAW should negotiate a fix until the Congress and the President do their job in this area and enact legislation which mandates this fix which I have advocated for many years. The common 401K program provides that the employer will match the portion of the wages the employee diverts from his or her wages into this investment account. for retirement up to a certain percentage of the employees overall wages, I think the current match of the automakers is 6.4 percent of the workers wages. The problem with the typical 401K program is that many employees cannot afford to put part of their wages in their 401K account so they miss out on the company match they miss out on this retirement money from their employer coming to them and since most employers don't have defined pension plans these workers when they reach retirement age have little retirement money and as America is seeing are facing real hardship and even homelessness. What the UAW should negotiate and Washington should mandate through legislation is that the employer (the automaker) must put eighty percent of the maximum it will match on the employee's contribution regardless of whether the employee puts any of the employee's wages into the 401k account not requiring one-hundred percent so as to leave some incentive for the employee to make a contribution. Finally on this issue the UAW would be prudent to negotiate that a significant portion like twenty-five percent of bonus and profit sharing checks workers get from the automaker get diverted into workers 401k program because money in this program grows tax free it is a very valuable way to build a retirement safety net.

The UAW needs to keep in mind Washington is forcing the U.S. auto industry on this big gamble to EVs the financial ramifications to U.S. automakers is a big unknown the conversion is going to a huge amount of money and it cannot be known whether there will be a good or profitable return on the investment. The automakers need to have the flexibility to cut things if they need to to survive. I don't think it is fair to preserve a right to strike if an automaker is closing down a plant unless the automakers is shipping that work to a right to work or non-unionized plant or outside the country. The UAW union especially their leadership should remember that the White House and the Democrat Party leadership is cheering you and they fully support you and will largely continue no matter what but ordinary Americans could turn on you if you act unreasonable and unfair ordinary Americans have a mixed feeling about Unions, school unions during the pandemic shut down schools way longer than they needed to resulting in significant harm to children that has left a lot of bad blood toward unions. The UAW is holding some good cards here and can win a good pot but don't get greedy because you could end up largely blowing it!
Those are really interesting points. And definitely something that was well thought out on your part. I will say knowing this because my dad worked at Ford along with my uncle. I’ve met a lot of people who are UAW members from back in the day. In the 1970s if you started off at Ford Motor Company after 90 days on the job you got equal pay for equal work. Meaning you would make the same amount of money as somebody in your same position even if they had 25 years on the job. Back in the 70s at the Ford Motor plant here in Buffalo my dad was making over $30 an hour adjusted for inflation after 90 days of work on the job.

It is a sad state of affairs that someone who starts off at Ford is making $18 an hour after 90 days on the job. That is not the America that the World War II veterans fought for.

That’s not what the American dream is all about. 18 bucks an hour in today’s America with a Joe Biden inflation. That’s just not going to cut it. Plus new hires at Ford don’t get anywhere near the same benefits that they would’ve gotten 30 years ago.

Another point is that the CEOs of today in America are not what they used to be meeting. I think that this country had a much better middle class and upper class in our past than we do today.


By the way, that same Ford plant in Buffalo used to have 5800 employees. Now they have somewhere around 1000. Another very sad site the downfall of industry in this country. Another sad sight is when fellow Americans think it’s fine for corporations to run over the workingman.

I agree with you that the idea of a four day work week is probably not manageable. Rather we shd have a Five day work week 40 hours a week with overtime pay for anything over 40 hours thats what we we gotta have.

But as for $18 an hour or even $20 an hour to start off at a place like Ford motor company Again, this is not what the World War II generation gave their lives for, fighting on the beaches of Normandy. The American dream must be attainable in this country. An American must be able to have a choice to work at a factory at an auto plant steel plant, making good money, contributing to industry in this country. Making enough money to attain the American dream to be able to buy a house and raise a family. And if they want to put in the extra work and go to college and make more money. That’s how things worked for decades on end. It worked back in the day we can make it happen again… one thing that gets in the way it’s corporate greed and Americans that apparently support corporate greed and don’t know much about history like the undeniable fact that for 50 years, the time of the American prosperity, we had a system where the American middle class and upper class thrived we need to have that again.

You know about history and you’re making very informed points . Thank you.
 
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By the way, that same Ford plant in Buffalo used to have 5800 employees. Now they have somewhere around 1000. Another very sad site the downfall of industry in this country. Another sad sight is when fellow Americans think it’s fine for corporations to run over the workingman.
Reality

I don't buy anything made by the Big 3 because with the exception of a truck or two they make shitty vehicles.

I also don't buy anything made by the UAW because they are the cash cow of the destructive Democrat Party.
 
The big 3 are pricing themselves out of the market. Whether the UAW wins or caves won't change that.
Saw that new Jeep Grand Wagoneer at the stealership asking 110K. For a freaking SUV loaded with options no one really needs.

Like I want to pay a mortgage on a vehicle with questionable reliability made by disgruntled workers.

Haven't been impressed with my 2011 Grand Cherokee as far as reliability and am considering a used Toyota Tundra to replace it as my towing vehicle.
 
Reality

I don't buy anything made by the Big 3 because with the exception of a truck or two they make shitty vehicles.

I also don't buy anything made by the UAW because they are the cash cow of the destructive Democrat Party.
The F150 remains the best truck in America. The Ford mustang GT is a top line sports car. But I agree with you about the sedans and the SUVs that Ford is producing. It’s not up to high quality standards.

The other point remains. Manufacturing in America has long been on a decline. And that has affected the middle class in a very negative way. So something has to be done about this. The current status quo is unmanageable for the future.

Ford, General Motors and steel plants throughout America used to pay folks over $30 an hour to start off. And that system worked for 50 or 70 years. So there’s no reason why It can’t work again. It’s a shame that Ford workers are starting off at around 18 bucks an hour these days.
 
On the UAW Union labor disputes with the Big Three

Wow. Over 1500 words just to say that cars are too expensive as it is, too full of technological crap that most people don't want nor need, the UAW were already making nice money and benefits and a 36% raise and only 4 day workweek while everyone's dream is bullshit. It will just drive the cost of cars even higher and drive the US auto industry over a cliff.
 
The F150 remains the best truck in America. The Ford mustang GT is a top line sports car. But I agree with you about the sedans and the SUVs that Ford is producing. It’s not up to high quality standards.

The other point remains. Manufacturing in America has long been on a decline. And that has affected the middle class in a very negative way. So something has to be done about this. The current status quo is unmanageable for the future.

Ford, General Motors and steel plants throughout America used to pay folks over $30 an hour to start off. And that system worked for 50 or 70 years. So there’s no reason why It can’t work again. It’s a shame that Ford workers are starting off at around 18 bucks an hour these days.
I would disagree. At the same price point a Tundra nowadays is a better truck than a Ford F-150. For a non work truck (like many Americans have) even the Honda Ridgeline is much better made.

For decades the F-150 was a fine truck and the work horse of America but nowadays they are not the same quality as they were even 10 years ago.

The Big 3 has gone to hell and the UAW are nothing more than a cash cow for the Democrats. When Gay Barry bailed out GM and Chrysler it was not to save them but to save the filthy UAW.

These stupid EVs subsidies now are nothing more than UAW welfare.
 
The F150 remains the best truck in America. The Ford mustang GT is a top line sports car. But I agree with you about the sedans and the SUVs that Ford is producing. It’s not up to high quality standards.

The other point remains. Manufacturing in America has long been on a decline. And that has affected the middle class in a very negative way. So something has to be done about this. The current status quo is unmanageable for the future.

Ford, General Motors and steel plants throughout America used to pay folks over $30 an hour to start off. And that system worked for 50 or 70 years. So there’s no reason why It can’t work again. It’s a shame that Ford workers are starting off at around 18 bucks an hour these days.


Many companies start you lower for the 90 day probationary period.
 
My last two main cars were A. First year (early 2000s?) Honda Element (used it over 200K). B. 2015 Ford Fusion SE (now at 140K) No issues. 4CYL with good enough power. American cars got better. But if they have to start cutting corners on parts to pay Labor 2X what the JAPANESE/KOREAN assembly plants are paying? You can just see the cheapness in GM or Chrysler cars to offset union demands.

The Honda broke a few times? Idle solenoid? Brakes? don't remember.
 
My last two main cars were A. First year (early 2000s?) Honda Element (used it over 200K). B. 2015 Ford Fusion SE (now at 140K) No issues. 4CYL with good enough power. American cars got better. But if they have to start cutting corners on parts to pay Labor 2X what the JAPANESE/KOREAN assembly plants are paying? You can just see the cheapness in GM or Chrysler cars to offset union demands.

The Honda broke a few times? Idle solenoid? Brakes? don't remember.
The first car I owned was a Ford Taurus. But it was about 10,000 miles but very much to my anger and crapped out after about 120,000 miles

I’m not going to lie I own a Toyota Prius now… I do plan on getting a Ford mustang GT next summer. Who knows how long combustible engine sports cars will last

As for the Prius this thing has 130,000 miles on it and it’s had minimal problems. I drove it across the country last year from New York all the way to Las Vegas and it was under $300 in gas for the entire trip and this was during the Joe Biden mega inflation,. And the Joe Biden Economy with super high gas prices, it’s a good idea to have at least one car That’s great on gas. And who knows what type of horrendous economic policies the Democrats will bring us in the future.

That’s why I hope Trump gets back in the office , his energy policies were very sound.

My dad owns a Ford fusion. He’s done well with it. That is one sedan that Ford is doing OK with
 
Wow, when I think of buying a Jeep, I think of a simple, rugged, off road vehicle with a steering wheel, wiper blades, a heater and a stick. Anything else is superfluous.
In decades passed we have owned five Jeeps. One of them, a 1995 Jeep Cherokee Sport, was one of the best vehicles I ever owned. I drove it for 20 years and it was a very reliable and never had a problem. Put 240K miles on it.

The other two Jeep Cherokees (for my sons) were OK. The two Jeep Grand Cherokees that I bought for my wife's SUVs were absolute lemons. We made the mistake of thinking that the first one was a fluke.

Nowadays we only buy Toyotas and Hondas.
 
In decades passed we have owned five Jeeps. One of them, a 1995 Jeep Cherokee Sport, was one of the best vehicles I ever owned. I drove it for 20 years and it was a very reliable and never had a problem. Put 240K miles on it.

The other two Jeep Cherokees (for my sons) were OK. The two Jeep Grand Cherokees that I bought for my wife's SUVs were absolute lemons. We made the mistake of thinking that the first one was a fluke.

Nowadays we only buy Toyotas and Hondas.
Yeah.
My '96 Grand Cherokee 4.0 lasted with minimal maintenance to 343,000 miles before the trans crapped out.
That thing was a workhorse.
Made the mistake thinking the next one would be just as good.
Check engine light is the most reliable feature.

That 5.7 Tundra is looking better all the time for my next.
 
Saw that new Jeep Grand Wagoneer at the stealership asking 110K. For a freaking SUV loaded with options no one really needs.

Like I want to pay a mortgage on a vehicle with questionable reliability made by disgruntled workers.

Haven't been impressed with my 2011 Grand Cherokee as far as reliability and am considering a used Toyota Tundra to replace it as my towing vehicle.

Saw a used truck listed for over $100K a few months back. They be cray cray.
 
The first car I owned was a Ford Taurus. But it was about 10,000 miles but very much to my anger and crapped out after about 120,000 miles

I’m not going to lie I own a Toyota Prius now… I do plan on getting a Ford mustang GT next summer. Who knows how long combustible engine sports cars will last

As for the Prius this thing has 130,000 miles on it and it’s had minimal problems. I drove it across the country last year from New York all the way to Las Vegas and it was under $300 in gas for the entire trip and this was during the Joe Biden mega inflation,. And the Joe Biden Economy with super high gas prices, it’s a good idea to have at least one car That’s great on gas. And who knows what type of horrendous economic policies the Democrats will bring us in the future.

That’s why I hope Trump gets back in the office , his energy policies were very sound.

My dad owns a Ford fusion. He’s done well with it. That is one sedan that Ford is doing OK with


I am not lying. One guy at work had a PRIUS, he just junked it (he changed to corolla hybrid) as the electrical INVERTER went out? Also rumor was he changed out the batteries about 5 yrs ago also. But he had a lot of miles on it. Over 120K I think?
 
I bought a 2018 Ford Focus SEL (closeout, FORD quit making them). Same motor as Fusion. I got it for $13K.....$16.5K with Tax and License out the door. It had 2K on it. Usually I don't buy used but it seemed to good to pass up. During Covid I was offered $20K for it several times.

I don't use it much. But it has Big screen backup and Sound with sunroof and better rims. Rides like crap. road noisy. 2015 Ford Fusion is much better.
 

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