Two Questions re: Ukraine

[Dorian Mode]

Who started the war?

You seriously can't answer that? This is why I included question #1.

Who started the war?

It is so naive to think wars start with the first bomb. This particular conflict had been building up since the 90's. Russia was put up against the wall and had to react. Moreover, this is part of a longstanding proxy war that goes back to the Korean War and Ukraine is just the latest to be sacrificed. You know nothing of the real reasons why this conflict flared up and only care about damaging Trump in any way possible. And you are nowhere near as clever as you think you are.

 

[Darkwind]

Two political questions for one political party:

1. Republicans, who started the war in Ukraine?

Russia's Stated Reasons for the 2022 Invasion of Ukraine​

When Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022, President Vladimir Putin and Russian officials put forth several public justifications:

• Protection of Russian Speakers: Putin claimed the operation aimed to "protect the people" in Russian-controlled breakaway republics of Donetsk and Luhansk in the Donbas region. He alleged that Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine had "been facing humiliation and genocide perpetrated by the Kyiv regime" for eight years—a claim widely regarded as baseless internationally.wikipedia+2
• Demilitarization and Denazification: Putin declared the goal of "demilitarizing and denazifying" Ukraine, presenting Ukraine's government as a "Nazi regime" dominated, he argued, by extremists and neo-Nazis. He called on the Ukrainian military to overthrow its "drug addicts and neo-Nazis" leadership. These claims were disproved by international observers and considered part of Russian propaganda to legitimize the war.bbc+2
• Recognition of Separatist Regions: Shortly before the invasion, Russia officially recognized the independence of the Donetsk and Luhansk republics and deployed troops as "peacekeepers." This move further justified, in Russian rhetoric, the broader assault on Ukraine.britannica+2
• Ukraine's Sovereignty and Legitimacy: Putin espoused imperialist views challenging Ukraine's sovereignty, at times directly denying its legitimacy as a state and framing the invasion as a historic mission to reclaim "historic Russian regions."tandfonline+2

The Role of NATO​

NATO was central to both Russian rhetoric and the geopolitical context:

• Russian Fear of NATO Expansion: A core stated reason for the invasion was Russia's opposition to NATO expansion into Eastern Europe, and specifically, its refusal to allow Ukraine to seek NATO membership. Russia demanded written guarantees from the West that Ukraine would never join NATO, deeming such expansion an existential threat to Russian security.wikipedia+3
• NATO Support for Ukraine: Since 2014, after Russia's annexation of Crimea, NATO intensified cooperation with Ukraine, providing military training, logistical support, and eventually, after the full-scale invasion, massive military aid and economic assistance. However, NATO did not directly intervene as a combatant in the conflict. NATO leaders repeatedly condemned Russia's invasion in the strongest possible terms and imposed heavy sanctions.natolibguides+2
• Russian "Proxy War" Narrative: The Russian government claimed that NATO was waging a "proxy war" against Russia by arming and supporting Ukraine. Russian state media portrayed Ukrainian forces as NATO puppets. These narratives were rejected by NATO and independent analysts, who noted that Ukrainian resistance was principally a national effort rather than a Western-directed one. Western weapons deliveries initially lagged and, even once accelerated, were constrained—NATO refused to enforce a "no-fly zone" or allow Ukrainian attacks into Russian territory using Western arms.wikipedia
• The Reality of Ukraine's NATO Relationship: At the time of the invasion, Ukraine was not a NATO member and had no prospects for near-term membership. Prior to 2022, several Western leaders urged Ukraine to adopt a neutral status, but Ukrainian officials, reflecting Russian aggression since 2014, saw NATO cooperation as essential for security. Analysts overwhelmingly agreed that fear of democracy spreading to Russia—a "democratic Ukraine as a threat to authoritarian Russia"—also underpinned Moscow's motives as much or more than NATO itself.atlanticcouncil+2

In-Depth Analysis and International Perspective​

• Putin's Broader Goals: Many experts and historians argue that the invasion was motivated as much by Putin's desire to reassert Russian influence over post-Soviet states and prevent Ukraine's drift toward the European Union and Western democratic values, as by NATO expansion.journalofdemocracy+2
• Discredited Claims: The "genocide" and "Nazi" accusations were consistently debunked by international organizations, independent media, and human rights observers. These claims were widely seen as strategic disinformation to mobilize Russian public support and justify aggression on the world stage.wikipedia+3
• Instrumentalization of History and Law: Putin also made irredentist legal and historical claims (for example, asserting Ukraine was a "historic Russian region") which many analysts view as part of a broader campaign to undermine post-Cold War European borders and norms.tandfonline

Summary Table​

Stated Russian Reason	International Assessment	NATO Involvement
Protect Russian speakers	Discredited as false	Provided support, no direct combat
"Denazification"/Genocide	Baseless, propaganda	Condemned invasion, imposed sanctions
Halt NATO expansion	Real concern, but not immediate	No membership for Ukraine at time
Reclaim historic regions	Imperialist/irredentist motive	Increased cooperation after invasion

In sum, Russia's invasion was justified via a mix of false narratives (genocide, Nazism), geopolitical fears about NATO, and desires to reassert Russian influence. NATO played a major role as both a rhetorical focus and practical supporter of Ukraine, but was not directly involved in combat, nor was Ukraine imminently joining NATO—contrary to Russian claims.bbc+6

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
2. Why did Putin’s Russia invade Ukraine and how could the war end?
3. Why did Vladimir Putin invade Ukraine in 2022? | Britannica
4. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10758216.2023.2254915?needAccess=true&role=button
5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War
6. NATO Library: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Special Focus: Welcome
7. NATO, the Russian Invasion of Ukraine, and the 2022 Strategic Concept - Georgetown Journal of International Affairs
8. Disinformation in the Russian invasion of Ukraine - Wikipedia
9. The real reason Russia invaded Ukraine (hint: it's not NATO expansion)
10. What Putin Fears Most | Journal of Democracy
11. https://ejes.uaic.ro/articles/EJES2023_1402_TUR.pdf
12. https://www.jois.eu/files/4_407_Johannesson.pdf
13. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/03932729.2024.2327492?needAccess=true
14. https://asce-uok.edu.pk/journal/index.php/JES/article/download/285/220
15. https://www.cambridge.org/core/serv...ia-ukraine-and-the-future-world-order-div.pdf
16. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adg1199
17. Pre-war experimental evidence that Putin’s propaganda elicited strong support for military invasion among Russians - PMC
18. https://academic.oup.com/jicj/article/21/2/233/7197410
19. https://biarjournal.com/index.php/biohs/article/download/1063/1002
20. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/13523260.2023.2259661?needAccess=true
21. https://kirj.ee/wp-content/plugins/kirj/pub/TRAMES-4-2023-327-349_20231105223448.pdf
22. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/21598282.2022.2163417
23. https://academic.oup.com/pnasnexus/article/doi/10.1093/pnasnexus/pgad386/7462602
24. https://works.swarthmore.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1008&context=swarthmoreirjournal
25. https://akjournals.com/downloadpdf/journals/2052/63/3/article-p206.pdf
26. https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/auk-2022-2023/pdf
27. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9511605/
28. https://www.ntnu.no/ojs/index.php/etikk_i_praksis/article/download/4997/4567
29. https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.241005
30. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/explainer-why-did-russia-invade-ukraine
31. https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/conflict-ukraine

2. Republicans, since Trump is so concerned about ending the war and saving lives, why isn't all his energy being spent doing what it takes to get Putin out of Ukraine?

Why don't you ask Trump? I don't actually support his efforts to drag the US into that conflict anymore than we already are. I say we wall off both countries and let the have at it. We are broke and it isn't any of our business.

No need for personal attacks or spin or changing the subject. Those are two clear, straightforward, and perfectly reasonable questions.

Donald Trump 'setting Zelensky up to fail' after Vladimir Putin's 'manipulation'

No need for personal attacks yet you'll reserve that right for yourself?

These are not straight forward and reasonable questions. They are biased and a childish attempt at trying to trap people who view this issue differently from you.

 

[citygator]

Cool NARRATIVE.

Thanks Trigger. Still.

 

[Darkwind]

Two political questions for one political party:

1. Republicans, who started the war in Ukraine?

Russia's Stated Reasons for the 2022 Invasion of Ukraine​

When Russia invaded Ukraine in February 2022, President Vladimir Putin and Russian officials put forth several public justifications:

• Protection of Russian Speakers: Putin claimed the operation aimed to "protect the people" in Russian-controlled breakaway republics of Donetsk and Luhansk in the Donbas region. He alleged that Russian speakers in eastern Ukraine had "been facing humiliation and genocide perpetrated by the Kyiv regime" for eight years—a claim widely regarded as baseless internationally.wikipedia+2
• Demilitarization and Denazification: Putin declared the goal of "demilitarizing and denazifying" Ukraine, presenting Ukraine's government as a "Nazi regime" dominated, he argued, by extremists and neo-Nazis. He called on the Ukrainian military to overthrow its "drug addicts and neo-Nazis" leadership. These claims were disproved by international observers and considered part of Russian propaganda to legitimize the war.bbc+2
• Recognition of Separatist Regions: Shortly before the invasion, Russia officially recognized the independence of the Donetsk and Luhansk republics and deployed troops as "peacekeepers." This move further justified, in Russian rhetoric, the broader assault on Ukraine.britannica+2
• Ukraine's Sovereignty and Legitimacy: Putin espoused imperialist views challenging Ukraine's sovereignty, at times directly denying its legitimacy as a state and framing the invasion as a historic mission to reclaim "historic Russian regions."tandfonline+2

The Role of NATO​

NATO was central to both Russian rhetoric and the geopolitical context:

• Russian Fear of NATO Expansion: A core stated reason for the invasion was Russia's opposition to NATO expansion into Eastern Europe, and specifically, its refusal to allow Ukraine to seek NATO membership. Russia demanded written guarantees from the West that Ukraine would never join NATO, deeming such expansion an existential threat to Russian security.wikipedia+3
• NATO Support for Ukraine: Since 2014, after Russia's annexation of Crimea, NATO intensified cooperation with Ukraine, providing military training, logistical support, and eventually, after the full-scale invasion, massive military aid and economic assistance. However, NATO did not directly intervene as a combatant in the conflict. NATO leaders repeatedly condemned Russia's invasion in the strongest possible terms and imposed heavy sanctions.natolibguides+2
• Russian "Proxy War" Narrative: The Russian government claimed that NATO was waging a "proxy war" against Russia by arming and supporting Ukraine. Russian state media portrayed Ukrainian forces as NATO puppets. These narratives were rejected by NATO and independent analysts, who noted that Ukrainian resistance was principally a national effort rather than a Western-directed one. Western weapons deliveries initially lagged and, even once accelerated, were constrained—NATO refused to enforce a "no-fly zone" or allow Ukrainian attacks into Russian territory using Western arms.wikipedia
• The Reality of Ukraine's NATO Relationship: At the time of the invasion, Ukraine was not a NATO member and had no prospects for near-term membership. Prior to 2022, several Western leaders urged Ukraine to adopt a neutral status, but Ukrainian officials, reflecting Russian aggression since 2014, saw NATO cooperation as essential for security. Analysts overwhelmingly agreed that fear of democracy spreading to Russia—a "democratic Ukraine as a threat to authoritarian Russia"—also underpinned Moscow's motives as much or more than NATO itself.atlanticcouncil+2

In-Depth Analysis and International Perspective​

• Putin's Broader Goals: Many experts and historians argue that the invasion was motivated as much by Putin's desire to reassert Russian influence over post-Soviet states and prevent Ukraine's drift toward the European Union and Western democratic values, as by NATO expansion.journalofdemocracy+2
• Discredited Claims: The "genocide" and "Nazi" accusations were consistently debunked by international organizations, independent media, and human rights observers. These claims were widely seen as strategic disinformation to mobilize Russian public support and justify aggression on the world stage.wikipedia+3
• Instrumentalization of History and Law: Putin also made irredentist legal and historical claims (for example, asserting Ukraine was a "historic Russian region") which many analysts view as part of a broader campaign to undermine post-Cold War European borders and norms.tandfonline

Summary Table​

Stated Russian Reason	International Assessment	NATO Involvement
Protect Russian speakers	Discredited as false	Provided support, no direct combat
"Denazification"/Genocide	Baseless, propaganda	Condemned invasion, imposed sanctions
Halt NATO expansion	Real concern, but not immediate	No membership for Ukraine at time
Reclaim historic regions	Imperialist/irredentist motive	Increased cooperation after invasion

In sum, Russia's invasion was justified via a mix of false narratives (genocide, Nazism), geopolitical fears about NATO, and desires to reassert Russian influence. NATO played a major role as both a rhetorical focus and practical supporter of Ukraine, but was not directly involved in combat, nor was Ukraine imminently joining NATO—contrary to Russian claims.bbc+6

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine
2. Why did Putin’s Russia invade Ukraine and how could the war end?
3. Why did Vladimir Putin invade Ukraine in 2022? | Britannica
4. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/10758216.2023.2254915?needAccess=true&role=button
5. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Ukrainian_War
6. NATO Library: The Russian Invasion of Ukraine - Special Focus: Welcome
7. NATO, the Russian Invasion of Ukraine, and the 2022 Strategic Concept - Georgetown Journal of International Affairs
8. Disinformation in the Russian invasion of Ukraine - Wikipedia
9. The real reason Russia invaded Ukraine (hint: it's not NATO expansion)
10. What Putin Fears Most | Journal of Democracy
11. https://ejes.uaic.ro/articles/EJES2023_1402_TUR.pdf
12. https://www.jois.eu/files/4_407_Johannesson.pdf
13. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/03932729.2024.2327492?needAccess=true
14. https://asce-uok.edu.pk/journal/index.php/JES/article/download/285/220
15. https://www.cambridge.org/core/serv...ia-ukraine-and-the-future-world-order-div.pdf
16. https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/sciadv.adg1199
17. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10637735/
18. https://academic.oup.com/jicj/article/21/2/233/7197410
19. https://biarjournal.com/index.php/biohs/article/download/1063/1002
20. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.1080/13523260.2023.2259661?needAccess=true
21. https://kirj.ee/wp-content/plugins/kirj/pub/TRAMES-4-2023-327-349_20231105223448.pdf
22. https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/21598282.2022.2163417
23. https://academic.oup.com/pnasnexus/article/doi/10.1093/pnasnexus/pgad386/7462602
24. https://works.swarthmore.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1008&context=swarthmoreirjournal
25. https://akjournals.com/downloadpdf/journals/2052/63/3/article-p206.pdf
26. https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.1515/auk-2022-2023/pdf
27. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC9511605/
28. https://www.ntnu.no/ojs/index.php/etikk_i_praksis/article/download/4997/4567
29. https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rsos.241005
30. https://www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/explainer-why-did-russia-invade-ukraine
31. https://www.cfr.org/global-conflict-tracker/conflict/conflict-ukraine

2. Republicans, since Trump is so concerned about ending the war and saving lives, why isn't all his energy being spent doing what it takes to get Putin out of Ukraine?

Why don't you ask Trump? I don't actually support his efforts to drag the US into that conflict anymore than we already are. I say we wall off both countries and let the have at it. We are broke and it isn't any of our business.

No need for personal attacks or spin or changing the subject. Those are two clear, straightforward, and perfectly reasonable questions.

Donald Trump 'setting Zelensky up to fail' after Vladimir Putin's 'manipulation'

No need for personal attacks yet you'll reserve that right for yourself?

These are not straight forward and reasonable questions. They are biased and a childish attempt at trying to trap people who view this issue differently from you.

 

[22lcidw]

It is worth mentioning that "the West" promised Putin on several occasions that NATO would not expand to the east, and "we" blew that promise to smithereens (whatever a smithereen is). So the question becomes, knowing that Russia is being led by a megalomaniac former KGB Colonel, was our provocation in this regard sufficient to provoke Putin into his current adventure? Do we blame the bear or the fool who provoked it into attacking? You be the judge.

Second, the merits of the conflict are somewhat murky. Remember that Ukraine (like Palestine) was a made-up country (by Nikita Khruschev), created to add a vote in the U.N. for the old Soviet Union. Historically, it was mostly a part of Russia before NK executed his gambit. Second, parts of Ukraine are mainly ethnic Russian, and the actual people who live there would be content to be brought back into the Russian Federation.

Since we in the West like "democracy" maybe it is OK to let Russia take a few bites out of Ukraine (with popular local support), if what remains is a viable country.

This is closer to sense.

 

[1srelluc]

Near four years on (not counting 2014) and none of the above matters a fig.

Force the Uke Midget to hold elections and see how he fairs. Let's see the amount of resolve the Uke people themselves have.

I'm not willing to take the the Uke Midget's word for anything.

 

[postman]

No need for personal attacks yet you'll reserve that right for yourself?

These are not straight forward and reasonable questions. They are biased and a childish attempt at trying to trap people who view this issue differently from you.

We know that all the reasons Putin gave for invading Ukraine are totally false.
Similar to the reasons that George W. Bush gave for invading Iraq.

 

[Darkwind]

We know that all the reasons Putin gave for invading Ukraine are totally false.
Similar to the reasons that George W. Bush gave for invading Iraq.

I don't really care.

I know it is common for countries to just ignore or denounce statements made by people they oppose and they often do it by just saying, "Its been debunked". without all the granular justifications for why it was wrong. They simply state it is and we just fall into line and agree with them.

Either way, I don't care.

We should wall them both off and let them kil each other to their hearts content.

 

[IDIOCRACY]

Two political questions for one political party:

1. Republicans, who started the war in Ukraine?

2. Republicans, since Trump is so concerned about ending the war and saving lives, why isn't all his energy being spent doing what it takes to get Putin out of Ukraine?

No need for personal attacks or spin or changing the subject. Those are two clear, straightforward, and perfectly reasonable questions.

Donald Trump 'setting Zelensky up to fail' after Vladimir Putin's 'manipulation'

1. Republicans, who started the war in Ukraine? PUTIN, and supported by those who receive $ by the war. Additionally, idiots like Democracks who threaten Russia by suggesting Ukraine should join NATO.

2. Republicans, since Trump is so concerned about ending the war and saving lives, why isn't all his energy being spent doing what it takes to get Putin out of Ukraine? You're an idiot?

No need for personal attacks or spin or changing the subject. Those are two clear, straightforward, and perfectly reasonable questions. Laughable......Your second question is anything but clear and straight foward, it's subjective BS built to make yourself feel better.

 

[Mac1958]

1. Republicans, who started the war in Ukraine? PUTIN, and supported by those who receive $ by the war. Additionally, idiots like Democracks who threaten Russia by suggesting Ukraine should join NATO.

2. Republicans, since Trump is so concerned about ending the war and saving lives, why isn't all his energy being spent doing what it takes to get Putin out of Ukraine? You're an idiot?

No need for personal attacks or spin or changing the subject. Those are two clear, straightforward, and perfectly reasonable questions. Laughable......Your second question is anything but clear and straight foward, it's subjective BS built to make yourself feel better.

The personal attacks and name-calling are always a good sign! Lots of that here! Well done!

 

[Missourian]

I’d like to see what happens. I just had a bunch of posts removed for being “off-topic”. Some mods apparently protect their favorites!

My posts are on-topic.

I'm illustrating that the "start" of a war doesn't necessarily coincide with the beginning of active hostilities. The war between the US and Japan started the day our policy of embargo of natural resources to Japan became an existential threat to their country.

And the example of Cuba represents OUR history of using force, overt and covert, to deter enemies on OUR border. Right down to the inclusion of occupying a military base against the express will of another sovereign nation.

The parallels couldn't be more obvious without the inclusion of a neon sign.

We did what we believed was right to protect America. We used the martial and political levers necessary. And it's not hard to imagine in a not too distant branch of the multiverse, the US invading, occupying and annexing Cuba.

When viewed though that lens, Russia's action are more understandable. If our positions were reversed, with the past as prologue, our actions would not be so different.

Mac1958

 

[JanetTheGreat]

Two political questions for one political party:

1. Republicans, who started the war in Ukraine?

2. Republicans, since Trump is so concerned about ending the war and saving lives, why isn't all his energy being spent doing what it takes to get Putin out of Ukraine?

No need for personal attacks or spin or changing the subject. Those are two clear, straightforward, and perfectly reasonable questions.

Donald Trump 'setting Zelensky up to fail' after Vladimir Putin's 'manipulation'

I am not a Republican, first and foremost.

The war in Ukraine was started by NATO and the West. Both the Orange Revolution in 2004, and the Euromaidan Coup in 2013 overthrew the previous Ukraine government. NATO and the West were already being aggressive for years, and years, and Russia took Crimea in a quick bloodless affair in 2014, even still trying to negotiate. It was always the Americans and the West breaking peace agreements.

Though Russia is not innocent, their government is corrupt like any others - the idea that Ukraine is some innocent dove in all of this is absolute BS.

Maybe we should sanction both Russia and Ukraine astronomically if they both fail to make peace. The US I think has the power to force both of them to make peace, and Ukraine WILL lose land to Russia in any peace deal, or else this is just going to continue (which is what warmongering leftists want).

 

[Kondor3]

There is no war in Ukraine. None has been declared.

Cheap, self-serving sophistry. There is, indeed, a war in Ukraine. Started by the goddamned Russians.

Getting Putin out of Ukraine would not saves lives.

Oh? Getting the Russian invaders out of Ukraine would not save lives? You are living in some kind of Alternate Reality.

 

[GLASNOST]

who started the war

... You know nothing of the real reasons why this conflict flared up and only care about damaging Trump in any way possible. And you are nowhere near as clever as you think you are.

You got him pegged perfectly.

 

[Mac1958]

Cheap, self-serving sophistry. There is, indeed, a war in Ukraine. Started by the goddamned Russians.

Oh? Getting the Russian invaders out of Ukraine would not save lives? You are living in some kind of Alternate Reality.

Yeah, there's no way to respond to that, or to determine if it's even serious.

 

[Kondor3]

I am not a Republican, first and foremost.

The war in Ukraine was started by NATO and the West. Both the Orange Revolution in 2004, and the Euromaidan Coup in 2013 overthrew the previous Ukraine government. NATO and the West were already being aggressive for years, and years, and Russia took Crimea in a quick bloodless affair in 2014, even still trying to negotiate. It was always the Americans and the West breaking peace agreements.

Though Russia is not innocent, their government is corrupt like any others - the idea that Ukraine is some innocent dove in all of this is absolute BS.

Maybe we should sanction both Russia and Ukraine astronomically if they both fail to make peace. The US I think has the power to force both of them to make peace, and Ukraine WILL lose land to Russia in any peace deal, or else this is just going to continue (which is what warmongering leftists want).

Da... you tell 'em, Tvaritch... ...what a load of Russia-excusing weasel-words... complete and total hor$e$hit...

 

[gipper]

How did biden do thst?

Or are you blaming trump?

Again you prove you know nothing. Obama started it.

SHUT OFF FOX NEWS!!!!!!

 

[gipper]

You mean those were American troops disguised as Russians who invaded Ukraine?

Ignorance!

 

[BlindBoo]

he war between the US and Japan started the day our policy of embargo of natural resources to Japan became an existential threat to their country.

The embargo was a threat to their ability to continue to expand the Japanese Empire and conquer other nations.

 

[JanetTheGreat]

Da... you tell 'em, Tvaritch... ...what a load of Russia-excusing weasel-words... complete and total hor$e$hit...

If what I am saying is so wrong, then prove it instead of making some jest or trolling.

Actually prove it wrong with facts and evidence.