Two Questions re: Ukraine

[Hafar1014]

Your type forever set problems --- how do you deal with uninformed lower IQ individuals ?

LIke you since you can post n intelligent response if you had any intelligence you could. Youre 13 right

 

[JGalt]

Mac1958

Mac1958 wants a Ukraine ceasefire as long as Trump gets no credit for it

What he and others like him really want is a full-scale war in Europe, so he can blame Trump.

 

[berg80]

That's part of it.

If Russia was still commie, and an American president sided with a commie russian leader, then dems would love that.

I remember the cold war and how you dems loved the soviets.

It's sad that you have to retreat to a fantasyland of your own creation rather than debate things as they are. Does it make you feel better that trump is more aligned with an enemy than our allies because Russia isn't ruled by the communist party any more?

 

[Mac-7]

What he and others like him really want is a full-scale war in Europe, so he can blame Trump.

Yes that would be ok too

The Mac1958’s of this forum hate trump MORE than they love America

 

[DGS49]

It is worth mentioning that "the West" promised Putin on several occasions that NATO would not expand to the east, and "we" blew that promise to smithereens (whatever a smithereen is). So the question becomes, knowing that Russia is being led by a megalomaniac former KGB Colonel, was our provocation in this regard sufficient to provoke Putin into his current adventure? Do we blame the bear or the fool who provoked it into attacking? You be the judge.

Second, the merits of the conflict are somewhat murky. Remember that Ukraine (like Palestine) was a made-up country (by Nikita Khruschev), created to add a vote in the U.N. for the old Soviet Union. Historically, it was mostly a part of Russia before NK executed his gambit. Second, parts of Ukraine are mainly ethnic Russian, and the actual people who live there would be content to be brought back into the Russian Federation.

Since we in the West like "democracy" maybe it is OK to let Russia take a few bites out of Ukraine (with popular local support), if what remains is a viable country.

 

[berg80]

Of so many lows, that was among the worst.

The fact that he did it because his ego wouldn't allow for acknowledging Putin's help in getting elected shows just how weak and insecure he is.

 

[Hafar1014]

What he and others like him really want is a full-scale war in Europe, so he can blame Trump.

What he and others like him really want is a full-scale war in Europe, so he can blame Trump.

Thats the last thing Putin wants NATO would wipe out his forces in a few weeks. Putin want to recreate the USSR. He has failed and weakened Russia so much he is no longer a threat to Europe

 

[Correll]

The crux of the issues is that


maga doesn't believe that Ukraine can win it's goals, in a reasonable time frame or at reasonable cost in lives.


Dems, when asked about justifying the cost of a long war to MAYBE get the russians out, refuse to do so, generally be pivoting to an emotional asserions, like "cower to HItler" or " it is the ukrainians decision".


Mac1958, instead is lowballing the cost of the war, by assuming that the russians are on the verge of collapse and all it will take is just harsher sanctions.


That is the reality of this political conflcit over this policy.


IMO, MAGA, is in the right here, clearly. THe way that the dems run away from seriously justifying the cost of the policy they support, shows that.

imo.


That is where the discussion is. That is where the discussion should FLOW FORWARD FROM.

 

[BlindBoo]

One, if the US didn't embargo oil to Japan, would they have bombed Pearl Harbor?

Probably. We (Allies) embargoed all kinds of material they needed to continue their conquests. Oil was the final straw

America squeezed Japan by blocking its trade​

Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau and Interior Secretary Harold Ickes vigorously endorsed this policy. Roosevelt hoped that such sanctions would goad the Japanese into making a rash mistake by launching a war against the United States, which would bring in Japan’s ally Germany.

Accordingly, the Roosevelt administration, while curtly dismissing Japanese diplomatic attempts to harmonize relations, imposed a series of increasingly stringent economic sanctions on Japan. In 1939 the United States terminated the 1911 commercial treaty with Japan.

George Morgenstern, in the book Perpetual War for Perpetual Peace, noted Americas’ actions: “On July 2, 1940, Roosevelt signed the Export Control Act, authorizing the President to license or prohibit the export of essential defense materials.” Under this authority, “[o]n July 31, exports of aviation motor fuels and lubricants and No. 1 heavy melting iron and steel scrap were restricted.”

Next, in a move aimed at Japan, Roosevelt slapped an embargo, effective October 16, “on all exports of scrap iron and steel to destinations other than Britain and the nations of the Western Hemisphere.”

Finally, economic warfare escalated on July 26, 1941, when Roosevelt “froze Japanese assets in the United States, thus bringing commercial relations between the nations to an effective end. One week later Roosevelt embargoed the export of such grades of oil as still were in commercial flow to Japan.” The British and the Dutch followed suit, and embargoed exports to Japan from their colonies in southeast Asia.

How U.S. economic warfare provoked Japan’s attack on Pearl Harbor - Students For Liberty

Prior to the attack on Pearl Harbor, Roosevelt and his subordinates knew they were putting Japan in an untenable position through economic warfare.

studentsforliberty.org

 

[Correll]

It's sad that you have to retreat to a fantasyland of your own creation rather than debate things as they are. Does it make you feel better that trump is more aligned with an enemy than our allies because Russia isn't ruled by the communist party any more?

What would make me feel better, is if we could stop pissing away ukrainian lives for nothing.

 

[TNHarley]

1. Republicans, who started the war in Ukraine?

2. Republicans, since Trump is so concerned about ending the war and saving lives, why isn't all his energy being spent doing what it takes to get Putin out of Ukraine?

1. Not a repub, but this has been an ongoing military conflict for years. It just escalated a while back.The escalation was invasion, which Russia obviously started.
2. Besides being scared of him, the only logical thing I can think of is he knows putin has all the cards.

 

[berg80]

It is worth mentioning that "the West" promised Putin on several occasions that NATO would not expand to the east

Myth:

NATO promised Russia it would not enlarge after the Cold War​

FACT
The myth that there was a promise by Western leaders not to allow new members to join has been circulating for many years, and is actively used in disinformation campaigns by the Kremlin since the start of the Russian war against Ukraine.

While records show that in the initial stages of discussions about German reunification, US Secretary of State James Baker and his West German counterpart, Hans-Dietrich Genscher, floated such an idea with each other and with Soviet leaders in 1990, but diplomatic negotiations quickly moved on and the idea was dropped.

NATO’s founding treaty – signed in 1949 by the 12 original members and by every country that has joined since – includes a clear provision that opens NATO’s door to “any other European state in a position to further the principles of this Treaty and to contribute to the security of the North Atlantic area.” This has never changed. No treaty signed by NATO Allies and Russia ever included provisions that NATO cannot take on new members. Decisions on NATO membership are taken by consensus among all Allies.

Describing NATO’s open door policy as “expansion” is already part of the myth. NATO did not seek out new members or aim to “expand eastward.” NATO respects every nation’s right to choose its own path. NATO membership is a decision first for those countries that wish to join. It is then for NATO Allies to consider the application.

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/115204.htm

Please supply factual information that disputes the info I posted if you feel it is incorrect.

 

[GLASNOST]

I see you haven't been reading anything at all,

You have no idea what you are talking about.

This time, when President Volodymyr Zelensky of Ukraine arrives in the Oval Office, he will come with backup.

And why do you think that is? Isn't Zoolinsky the highly skilled Democratically elected president of Ukraine? Oh, that's right ....... he isn't any of those things. Hmmmmmm, so is he getting "backup" or puppet masters? Ooooo, there's a choice!

An array of European prime ministers and presidents are flying in for the meeting on Monday

The EU. Do you know what that is? Maybe they are all Democratically elected, huh? Oh no! They haven't been democratically elected either! Holy shit! Anyway, Let us pay particular attention to what Viktor Orbán, Robert Fico, and Călin Georgescu have to say ..... shall we? What do you think? Sound like a good idea?

By most accounts, the European officials want to ensure that Mr. Trump has not pivoted too close to the Russian side

OMG. You are a child.

Perhaps you'd like to tell us what Russian propaganda's take is.

You just now spouted off a barrel full of Western propaganda. If I knew any Russian propaganda what good would it do?

 

[Correll]

1. Not a repub, but this has been an ongoing military conflict for years. It just escalated a while back.The escalation was invasion, which Russia obviously started.
2. Besides being scared of him, the only logical thing I can think of is he knows putin has all the cards.

I do think that as a former real estate guy, that the destruction that Trump sees in ukraine, does weight heavily in his calculations.

That is not really "fear" so much as yes, thinking Putin has a lot of the cards, if not ALL of them.


(he has repeatedly commented on the country being in "rubble")

 

[JGalt]

Thats the last thing Putin wants NATO would wipe out his forces in a few weeks. Putin want to recreate the USSR. He has failed and weakened Russia so much he is no longer a threat to Europe

I'm not so sure. With NATO involved in Ukraine, it would only be a matter of time before they inflicted civilian casualties across the border in Russia, whether intentionally or by accident. Russia's nuclear weapons policy, outlined in its 2020 "Basic Principles of State Policy on Nuclear Deterrence," dictates that nuclear weapons are primarily for deterrence and would be used in response to an attack with nuclear or other weapons of mass destruction, or in the event of a conventional attack that threatens the existence of the Russian state. However, recent revisions suggest a potential shift towards a more flexible interpretation of what constitutes a "critical threat" justifying nuclear use, including scenarios involving conventional attacks on Russia or Belarus that jeopardize their sovereignty or territorial integrity. An incident involving NATO causing Russian civilian casualties would solidify the Russian people, as it did in WW2. That could easily lead to a nuclear conflagration.

 

[Hafar1014]

I'm not so sure. With NATO involved in Ukraine, it would only be a matter of time before they inflicted civilian casualties across the border in Russia, whether intentionally or by accident. Russia's nuclear weapons policy, outlined in its 2020 "Basic Principles of State Policy on Nuclear Deterrence," dictates that nuclear weapons are primarily for deterrence and would be used in response to an attack with nuclear or other weapons of mass destruction, or in the event of a conventional attack that threatens the existence of the Russian state. However, recent revisions suggest a potential shift towards a more flexible interpretation of what constitutes a "critical threat" justifying nuclear use, including scenarios involving conventional attacks on Russia or Belarus that jeopardize their sovereignty or territorial integrity. An incident involving NATO causing Russian civilian casualties would solidify the Russian people, as it did in WW2. That could easily lead to a nuclear conflagration.

Using nukes is suicide. It wont happen. Iran is the real threat with nukes they fully intend to use them. Nato will easily destroy Russias military in Ukraine and never go into Russian territory

 

[Hafar1014]

The fact that he did it because his ego wouldn't allow for acknowledging Putin's help in getting elected shows just how weak and insecure he is.

Still beating the dead horse of Russia Trump collusion. Putin wanted Biden demented incompetent and unable to respond. He invaded Ukraine right after Biden was elected.

 

[GLASNOST]

Is bugger as stupid as he makes out .....?

I honestly think he is, yes.

 

[GLASNOST]

If you don't like my posts or my threads, tough shit.

Why so defensive?

Something to with upbringing and being bullied, I think.

 

[GLASNOST]

It is worth mentioning that "the West" promised Putin on several occasions that NATO would not expand to the east, and "we" blew that promise to smithereens .

How did you know that? Are you sure that you are American?