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TV host asks atheist Stephen Fry question about God, you have to watch what happens next

guno

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Great to watch, clear thinking


'I'd say, bone cancer in children? What's that about? How dare you?' Fry responds to a totally stunned Byrne. 'How dare you create a world in which there is such misery that is not our fault? It's not right, it's utterly, utterly evil. 'Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God that creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain?' Flabbergasted, Byrne sputters out: 'And you think you're going to get in?...' 'But I wouldn't want to,' Fry confirms. 'I wouldn't want to get in on his terms.' - "




 

Luddly Neddite

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I agree with him.

Why would I worship a creature who throws tantrums and wipes out the entire human race? Or, apparently on a whim, gives innocent babies horrible diseases?


Haters_678af2_1145120_zps7a8707dd.jpg
 

Meriweather

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Great to watch, clear thinking


'I'd say, bone cancer in children? What's that about? How dare you?' Fry responds to a totally stunned Byrne. 'How dare you create a world in which there is such misery that is not our fault? It's not right, it's utterly, utterly evil. 'Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God that creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain?' Flabbergasted, Byrne sputters out: 'And you think you're going to get in?...' 'But I wouldn't want to,' Fry confirms. 'I wouldn't want to get in on his terms.' - "

It is not clear thinking. First, the creation is not the Creator. I was using a knife the other day--and cut myself. How dare the creator of that knife design it so that it cut me, that it caused me pain, etc. etc. etc.

In the same way Mr. Fry is saying, "How dare God create a body that is not superhuman!" He ignores the fact (he might say 'possibility') that, ultimately, the being is superhuman and escapes the body, just as the butterfly escapes the cocoon.

Fry does not believe in an afterlife. All he can see is the physical life of the here and now. He then transfers this to God creating a short, miserable life for some children--that they have no other, will have no other. This is not clear thinking, it is myopic because he does not--seemingly cannot--take into account the other side.
 

Book of Jeremiah

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According to the bible, Stephen Fry is a fool. Hell is truth seen too late. He needs prayer.
 

Hollie

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Great to watch, clear thinking


'I'd say, bone cancer in children? What's that about? How dare you?' Fry responds to a totally stunned Byrne. 'How dare you create a world in which there is such misery that is not our fault? It's not right, it's utterly, utterly evil. 'Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God that creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain?' Flabbergasted, Byrne sputters out: 'And you think you're going to get in?...' 'But I wouldn't want to,' Fry confirms. 'I wouldn't want to get in on his terms.' - "

It is not clear thinking. First, the creation is not the Creator. I was using a knife the other day--and cut myself. How dare the creator of that knife design it so that it cut me, that it caused me pain, etc. etc. etc.

In the same way Mr. Fry is saying, "How dare God create a body that is not superhuman!" He ignores the fact (he might say 'possibility') that, ultimately, the being is superhuman and escapes the body, just as the butterfly escapes the cocoon.

Fry does not believe in an afterlife. All he can see is the physical life of the here and now. He then transfers this to God creating a short, miserable life for some children--that they have no other, will have no other. This is not clear thinking, it is myopic because he does not--seemingly cannot--take into account the other side.
There's a flaw in your attempt at analogy. There's nothing supernatural about the "creation" of a knife.

However, we're left with the allegation that your partisan gawds are responsible for "creation" of the planet. That requires we accept your gawds have established the laws of convection, the peculiar off-axis tilt of the planet, and rotation of planet. Those elements create swirling whirlwinds we call tornadoes or twisters. As the Author of All, your gawds could have created a completely different existence-- they just didn't think that detail through, apparently.

Oh yeah, next time you're talking to one or more of the gawds, be sure to thank them for that blueprint for the cancer cell. Truly, a master stroke of "design".
 

Meriweather

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There's a flaw in your attempt at analogy. There's nothing supernatural about the "creation" of a knife.
No one said, and it was not intended, that there was anything supernatural about this. I merely pointed out the creation is not the creator--and that holds true for a human being or Supreme Being.

The purpose of creation isn't necessarily the same purpose of creator. They are most probably operating on different levels. Physical creation holds beauty and inspiration. It also contains destruction and what is ugly. It would be somewhat shallow and ignorant to claim beautiful artwork can only be created by someone young and beautiful, whereas ugly artwork has to be the work of the plain and stout.

Would Steven Fry look at a painting, note something he does not like about the painting and then tell the artist he would never enter into the artist's home because something he didn't like in a painted creation caused Fry to assume the artist was truly abominable?
 

Mindful

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There's a flaw in your attempt at analogy. There's nothing supernatural about the "creation" of a knife.
No one said, and it was not intended, that there was anything supernatural about this. I merely pointed out the creation is not the creator--and that holds true for a human being or Supreme Being.

The purpose of creation isn't necessarily the same purpose of creator. They are most probably operating on different levels. Physical creation holds beauty and inspiration. It also contains destruction and what is ugly. It would be somewhat shallow and ignorant to claim beautiful artwork can only be created by someone young and beautiful, whereas ugly artwork has to be the work of the plain and stout.

Would Steven Fry look at a painting, note something he does not like about the painting and then tell the artist he would never enter into the artist's home because something he didn't like in a painted creation caused Fry to assume the artist was truly abominable?

I think he meant why should we bow down and worship a God for his many blessings, when there aren't any blessings.
 

Capstone

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So a committee of Gods looking down on us, deciding our fate according to their whims, is the way to go?
I think his point there went straight to the heart of the biggest problem with common Christian theology. The hypocrisy inherent in the genocidal and otherwise apparently psychotic behavior attributed to the God of the Bible is only reinforced by "HIS" apparent ambivalence in the face of clear injustices carried out in "HIS" creation by things like parasitic insects whose sole purpose in life seems to be survival at the expense of their hosts' eyesight (including innocent children), especially in light of the 'omni-max' nature of this capital-G "God" we're asked to accept strictly as a matter of doctrine. In stark contrast to this 'all-knowing, omni-benevolent, all-powerful, perfectly just and merciful, ETC.' god-concept, the gods of ancient Greek mythology were never described in a manner so blatantly inconsistent with their purported terrestrial actions or the nature of things in general in the world beyond the reported instances of divine intervention. It is, therefore, easier for those of us more inclined to critical analysis than to blind acceptance 'on faith' to reconcile with our own consciences the worthiness of such gods of things like 'worship and praise'.

I'm not suggesting that Stephen Fry condones belief in the gods of the ancient Greeks; I think he's simply saying that such a belief would be far more ethically justifiable than a belief in the megalomaniacal God of Christianity (and I couldn't agree more, BTW).
 

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I don't think God denied the existence of other Gods. Because He said "thou shalt have no other Gods before me" doesn't mean there weren't any. And He did admit to being jealous.
 

Meriweather

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I think he meant why should we bow down and worship a God for his many blessings, when there aren't any blessings.

Fry seems to think that the only purpose God should serve is to prevent human suffering. From here it is easy to follow Fry's line of thinking. There is human suffering, therefore there is no God. As I said earlier, this is neither clear nor great thinking.
 

Mindful

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I think he meant why should we bow down and worship a God for his many blessings, when there aren't any blessings.

Fry seems to think that the only purpose God should serve is to prevent human suffering. From here it is easy to follow Fry's line of thinking. There is human suffering, therefore there is no God. As I said earlier, this is neither clear nor great thinking.

It's subjective thinking, and anthropomorphising God.

Well maybe we did create God in our own image.
 

turzovka

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So a committee of Gods looking down on us, deciding our fate according to their whims, is the way to go?
I think his point there went straight to the heart of the biggest problem with common Christian theology. The hypocrisy inherent in the genocidal and otherwise apparently psychotic behavior attributed to the God of the Bible is only reinforced by "HIS" apparent ambivalence in the face of clear injustices carried out in "HIS" creation by things like parasitic insects whose sole purpose in life seems to be survival at the expense of their hosts' eyesight (including innocent children), especially in light of the 'omni-max' nature of this capital-G "God" we're asked to accept strictly as a matter of doctrine. In stark contrast to this 'all-knowing, omni-benevolent, all-powerful, perfectly just and merciful, ETC.' god-concept, the gods of ancient Greek mythology were never described in a manner so blatantly inconsistent with their purported terrestrial actions or the nature of things in general in the world beyond the reported instances of divine intervention. It is, therefore, easier for those of us more inclined to critical analysis than to blind acceptance 'on faith' to reconcile with our own consciences the worthiness of such gods of things like 'worship and praise'.

I'm not suggesting that Stephen Fry condones belief in the gods of the ancient Greeks; I think he's simply saying that such a belief would be far more ethically justifiable than a belief in the megalomaniacal God of Christianity (and I couldn't agree more, BTW).

This presupposes God's ways cannot be of any higher or more sublime value than ours, and therefore, He can never justify our temporal sufferings. Nor can any promise of eternal life and peace justify our sufferings.

For myself, I cannot deny the God of Bible's divine manifestations and tell Him you neither exist nor matter. On the other hand, all Greek, Egyptian and Indian gods are silent as stones, there is no race or competition to consider here. Nor has "Allah" or his "prophet" Muhammad ever shown any true sign of divine providence.
 

indiajo

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No one said, and it was not intended, that there was anything supernatural about this. I merely pointed out the creation is not the creator--and that holds true for a human being or Supreme Being.

The purpose of creation isn't necessarily the same purpose of creator. They are most probably operating on different levels. Physical creation holds beauty and inspiration. It also contains destruction and what is ugly. It would be somewhat shallow and ignorant to claim beautiful artwork can only be created by someone young and beautiful, whereas ugly artwork has to be the work of the plain and stout.

Would Steven Fry look at a painting, note something he does not like about the painting and then tell the artist he would never enter into the artist's home because something he didn't like in a painted creation caused Fry to assume the artist was truly abominable?

Well, this becomes ridiculous.
This awkward comparisons between knifes, paintings and other human stuff with the incosistencies of the so called creation by an all knowing god.
Childish, at least.
Or, just a blown up babble speech around the old excuse: "the ways of god are mysterious".

I am a born Catholic. In South Germany. In the 1950's. My surrounding was deeply religious, not with the frenzy of the Polish or Italians, but good enough. The deeper myth of Catholizism (but also the Protestants) is resembled best in the church songs which burst of craving for salvation from this vale of doom down here on earth.
Which was created by this all caring, all loving god.
That is what I call pathological schizophrenia with an delusional Stockholm syndrome.

Think once: what if this god will not only torture you or some innocent beeings here on earth? What makes you so sure that he will not proceed with his little hobby during your afterlife for eternity?
Because some old men in womens clothes with funny hats taught you so?

Do you believe that the Pharaos were semi gods who, when dead, escaped through a tunnel of the pyramids to Sirius to sit besides Amun and Osiris? No? Why not?
This is not more phantasic than a god who impregnated himself to a 14 year old virgin to get himself nailed to a cross to grant humankind forgiveness for sins he stipulated in the first place?

We had here a 30 year long war between Catholics and Protestants which wiped out about 30% of the European polulation, 1618 to 1648. Appearantly all heavily believing in the same all caring god who was not in a position to prevent that.
When I was a child it was still unthinkalble for a Catholic to marry a Prorestant in our area. My best friend in public school was protestant, we were direct neighbors. We were not allowed to mutually attend the first communion or confirmation of each other, because this was considered heresy.
(Not that bad, because I hated going to church anyway to the bone, but the celebration was fun)

So what the hell is this all about? Nothing, except the invented stories of a few unscrupulous itinernt preachers making their living by planting dark fears in the hearts of illiterate people during the iron age.

And it still works! I don't get it.
 

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For myself, I cannot deny the God of Bible's divine manifestations and tell Him you neither exist nor matter. On the other hand, all Greek, Egyptian and Indian gods are silent as stones, there is no race or competition to consider here. Nor has "Allah" or his "prophet" Muhammad ever shown any true sign of divine providence.

Your god didn't either. There is no divine manifestation that any other delusional religion could not claim for their god or gods.
 

turzovka

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For myself, I cannot deny the God of Bible's divine manifestations and tell Him you neither exist nor matter. On the other hand, all Greek, Egyptian and Indian gods are silent as stones, there is no race or competition to consider here. Nor has "Allah" or his "prophet" Muhammad ever shown any true sign of divine providence.

Your god didn't either. There is no divine manifestation that any other delusional religion could not claim for their god or gods.

Sorry, but you are mistaken. The signs and wonders provided by the Judeo-Christian G-d are legion. Far surpassing any scant sign of supernatural manifestation from Hinduism or Islam or the occult. Far more compelling and enormous in scope. Far more loving and merciful and articulate in the message.

But God does give us all free will to believe what we want to believe and to choose what we want to choose. But so few of us are ignorant of the many revelations and witnesses to the truths, and yet still claim to be.
 
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indiajo

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Sorry, but you are mistaken. The signs and wonders provided by the Judeo-Christian G-d are legion. Far surpassing any scant sign of supernatural manifestation from Hinduism or Islam or the occult.

Well, if you define legion = zero you are right.
 

Meriweather

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Well, this becomes ridiculous.
This awkward comparisons between knifes, paintings and other human stuff with the incosistencies of the so called creation by an all knowing god.
Childish, at least.
Or, just a blown up babble speech around the old excuse: "the ways of god are mysterious".

I am a born Catholic. In South Germany. In the 1950's. My surrounding was deeply religious, not with the frenzy of the Polish or Italians, but good enough. The deeper myth of Catholizism (but also the Protestants) is resembled best in the church songs which burst of craving for salvation from this vale of doom down here on earth.
Which was created by this all caring, all loving god.
That is what I call pathological schizophrenia with an delusional Stockholm syndrome.

While you were singing about vales of doom, I was singing, "Leaping the mountains, bounding the hills, see how our God has come to meet us! His voice is lifted, His face is joy!" Much of my Catholic upbringing was about living life in the here and now--not the hereafter.

Is it that God is so mysterious, or is it people think they know God based on how they, personally, see the world--and how they, personally, feel a God should act?
 

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