TV host asks atheist Stephen Fry question about God, you have to watch what happens next

[indiajo]

While you were singing about vales of doom, I was singing, "Leaping the mountains, bounding the hills, see how our God has come to meet us! His voice is lifted, His face is joy!" Much of my Catholic upbringing was about living life in the here and now--not the hereafter.

Is it that God is so mysterious, or is it people think they know God based on how they, personally, see the world--and how they, personally, feel a God should act?

1. I was NEVER singing that. As a child i remember just moving my lips sometimes to avoid being questioned why I am not singing this shit. I experienced that as deeply embarassing.
I really don't want to appear as a high nosed egghead, but at the age of ten (I can date that because it corresponds with all this stuff of the first communion) the obligatory mass on sunday morning was something I feared the whole week.
Normally I withdraw insíde myself and built model planes inseide my head. In detail. I was that good with it, I managed basically flawless the repeated stand up-kneel down-sit-stand up- kneel down procedure just by mimicking the hipocritical bunch around me more or less subconciously.

I don't want to say that I was an atheist at ten, but I felt that there was something wrong as hell.
And I couldn't believe it. As child you are forced to recite a stupid childish prayer before bedtime, I think that is common. It was a pain in my ass, even when I was younger than ten. To recite this unbelievable dumb rhymes, loudly because it was controlled, made me cringe inside every time.
Actually this was child abuse, that my parents didn't know better is no excuse.

2. Maybe you US guys have different songbooks. Lot of things you consider catholic is definetely not original. Otherwise you- would not have all this funny farm like TV churches which derived from catholic and protestant churches.
Sometimes I watch this stuff when I am bored for a kind of disgusted amusement, or freak show if you like. We don't have that here. Well there are the Jehovas witnesses sometimes standing at street corners, trying to give away the phantastic enlightening "watchtower" magazine. Plus some rare small "Anglikaner" (I don't knw how to translate that) churches who are something like Amish, only without the dress code and horses plus they don't live in secluded areas.

3. Of course people want their god to act as it would fit best into their personal lifes.
This is what it's all about. All of this monotheistic religions have attributed the craziest contradictory
characters to their gods, so that everybody can be satisfied by cherrypicking.
There is nothing mysterious about it. Its just mass psychology. And they are really good with it.
Thousands of years of experience shouldn't be underestimated.

 

[turzovka]

Sorry, but you are mistaken. The signs and wonders provided by the Judeo-Christian G-d are legion. Far surpassing any scant sign of supernatural manifestation from Hinduism or Islam or the occult.

Well, if you define legion = zero you are right.

That's really kind of sad. I guess there is nothing short of Jesus waking you up in your bedroom and having a talk with you that will ever make you think God exists and has a purpose for your life.

What always confounded me was how anyone could think that life could just spring up from the rocks and then start assembling male and female animals and all those crazy organs when once none existed --- all by random selection or some mindless molecules banging into each other. That, is incredulity.

Life is not some strange coincidence without any lasting meaning. Maybe for a plant or bug, but not for humanity.

 

[HenryBHough]

Are we sure God doesn't think he's president?

 

[Meriweather]

Think once: what if this god will not only torture you or some innocent beeings here on earth? What makes you so sure that he will not proceed with his little hobby during your afterlife for eternity?
Because some old men in womens clothes with funny hats taught you so?

Do you believe that the Pharaos were semi gods who, when dead, escaped through a tunnel of the pyramids to Sirius to sit besides Amun and Osiris? No? Why not?
This is not more phantasic than a god who impregnated himself to a 14 year old virgin to get himself nailed to a cross to grant humankind forgiveness for sins he stipulated in the first place?

We had here a 30 year long war between Catholics and Protestants which wiped out about 30% of the European polulation, 1618 to 1648. Appearantly all heavily believing in the same all caring god who was not in a position to prevent that.
When I was a child it was still unthinkalble for a Catholic to marry a Prorestant in our area. My best friend in public school was protestant, we were direct neighbors. We were not allowed to mutually attend the first communion or confirmation of each other, because this was considered heresy.
(Not that bad, because I hated going to church anyway to the bone, but the celebration was fun)

So what the hell is this all about? Nothing, except the invented stories of a few unscrupulous itinernt preachers making their living by planting dark fears in the hearts of illiterate people during the iron age.

And it still works! I don't get it.

The Thirty Years War did start out as a conflict between Catholics and Protestants--but it quickly became a political or state/national conflict with political powers vying for the uppermost hand. This is well known. Even at the beginning, most of it was about Protestants wanting what the power then shared between the State and Church.

I suppose customs vary from area to area. While you say it was unthinkable for a Catholic to marry a Protestant in your area in the 1950s, my Catholic grandmother married an atheist in the 1930s. Of their three children, two grew up Catholic, one grew up atheist. My best friend was the daughter of a Presbyterian minister. I attended her church, she attended mine.

Apparently you grew up with the what I call The Bad News. Christ never asked us to proclaim The Bad News. He asked that his followers proclaim the Good News (Gospel) where there is repentance for the forgiveness of sins; that God loves us and reaches out to us.

 

[Meriweather]

While you were singing about vales of doom, I was singing, "Leaping the mountains, bounding the hills, see how our God has come to meet us! His voice is lifted, His face is joy!" Much of my Catholic upbringing was about living life in the here and now--not the hereafter.

Is it that God is so mysterious, or is it people think they know God based on how they, personally, see the world--and how they, personally, feel a God should act?

1. I was NEVER singing that. As a child i remember just moving my lips sometimes to avoid being questioned why I am not singing this shit. I experienced that as deeply embarassing.
I really don't want to appear as a high nosed egghead, but at the age of ten (I can date that because it corresponds with all this stuff of the first communion) the obligatory mass on sunday morning was something I feared the whole week.
Normally I withdraw insíde myself and built model planes inseide my head. In detail. I was that good with it, I managed basically flawless the repeated stand up-kneel down-sit-stand up- kneel down procedure just by mimicking the hipocritical bunch around me more or less subconciously.

I don't want to say that I was an atheist at ten, but I felt that there was something wrong as hell.
And I couldn't believe it. As child you are forced to recite a stupid childish prayer before bedtime, I think that is common. It was a pain in my ass, even when I was younger than ten. To recite this unbelievable dumb rhymes, loudly because it was controlled, made me cringe inside every time.
Actually this was child abuse, that my parents didn't know better is no excuse.

2. Maybe you US guys have different songbooks. Lot of things you consider catholic is definetely not original. Otherwise you- would not have all this funny farm like TV churches which derived from catholic and protestant churches.
Sometimes I watch this stuff when I am bored for a kind of disgusted amusement, or freak show if you like. We don't have that here. Well there are the Jehovas witnesses sometimes standing at street corners, trying to give away the phantastic enlightening "watchtower" magazine. Plus some rare small "Anglikaner" (I don't knw how to translate that) churches who are something like Amish, only without the dress code and horses plus they don't live in secluded areas.

3. Of course people want their god to act as it would fit best into their personal lifes.
This is what it's all about. All of this monotheistic religions have attributed the craziest contradictory
characters to their gods, so that everybody can be satisfied by cherrypicking.
There is nothing mysterious about it. Its just mass psychology. And they are really good with it.
Thousands of years of experience shouldn't be underestimated.

I am truly sorry you had such horrible experiences.

 

[bodecea]

Great to watch, clear thinking


'I'd say, bone cancer in children? What's that about? How dare you?' Fry responds to a totally stunned Byrne. 'How dare you create a world in which there is such misery that is not our fault? It's not right, it's utterly, utterly evil. 'Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God that creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain?' Flabbergasted, Byrne sputters out: 'And you think you're going to get in?...' 'But I wouldn't want to,' Fry confirms. 'I wouldn't want to get in on his terms.' - "

It is not clear thinking. First, the creation is not the Creator. I was using a knife the other day--and cut myself. How dare the creator of that knife design it so that it cut me, that it caused me pain, etc. etc. etc.

In the same way Mr. Fry is saying, "How dare God create a body that is not superhuman!" He ignores the fact (he might say 'possibility') that, ultimately, the being is superhuman and escapes the body, just as the butterfly escapes the cocoon.

Fry does not believe in an afterlife. All he can see is the physical life of the here and now. He then transfers this to God creating a short, miserable life for some children--that they have no other, will have no other. This is not clear thinking, it is myopic because he does not--seemingly cannot--take into account the other side.

So you lean towards the God is the Watchmaker view.

 

[rightwinger]

I liked Frys response in holding God accountable for his behavior

Why should he get a free ride?

 

[indiajo]

[


That's really kind of sad. I guess there is nothing short of Jesus waking you up in your bedroom and having a talk with you that will ever make you think God exists and has a purpose for your life.

What always confounded me was how anyone could think that life could just spring up from the rocks and then start assembling male and female animals and all those crazy organs when once none existed --- all by random selection or some mindless molecules banging into each other. That, is incredulity.

Life is not some strange coincidence without any lasting meaning. Maybe for a plant or bug, but not for humanity.

Listen, stay away with the stupid watchmaker theory and start reading some science books.
And never underestimate the complexity of plants and insects.
That your brain has a tiny advantage over a chimpanzee, and your genetic code araund 1,5% difference from a pig is nothing more than happenstance.
And you should be thankful to have inherited a few essential genes from the Neanderthal humanoids.
(Really, without that we would possibly not exist at all, except a few pygmies in Africa, to exeggarate a little).

P.S. I don't hear voices in my head except my own.

 

[indiajo]

I am truly sorry you had such horrible experiences.

Me not. Actually it cleared my mind.
And I am confirmed on a daily basis.

 

[turzovka]

[


That's really kind of sad. I guess there is nothing short of Jesus waking you up in your bedroom and having a talk with you that will ever make you think God exists and has a purpose for your life.

What always confounded me was how anyone could think that life could just spring up from the rocks and then start assembling male and female animals and all those crazy organs when once none existed --- all by random selection or some mindless molecules banging into each other. That, is incredulity.

Life is not some strange coincidence without any lasting meaning. Maybe for a plant or bug, but not for humanity.

Listen, stay away with the stupid watchmaker theory and start reading some science books.
And never underestimate the complexity of plants and insects.
That your brain has a tiny advantage over a chimpanzee, and your genetic code araund 1,5% difference from a pig is nothing more than happenstance.
And you should be thankful to have inherited a few essential genes from the Neanderthal humanoids.
(Really, without that we would possibly not exist at all, except a few pygmies in Africa, to exeggarate a little).

P.S. I don't hear voices in my head except my own.

What a bargain you made with yourself.

“When man stops believing in God he then does not believe in nothing… he will believe in anything.” (G.K. Chesterton)

 

[RandomVariable]

Great to watch, clear thinking


'I'd say, bone cancer in children? What's that about? How dare you?' Fry responds to a totally stunned Byrne. 'How dare you create a world in which there is such misery that is not our fault? It's not right, it's utterly, utterly evil. 'Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid God that creates a world that is so full of injustice and pain?' Flabbergasted, Byrne sputters out: 'And you think you're going to get in?...' 'But I wouldn't want to,' Fry confirms. 'I wouldn't want to get in on his terms.' - "

A better question would be, "God, why do you not rain hellfire down on the chemical company dumping waste into the river upstream of little Johnie's house." But then the media giants do not actually want those kinds of questions asked. Just brain dead, dumb ass questions like, "Gee, God, Why does Johnie have cancer? Oh, ha, ha, ha, I am so fucking funny and witty and arrogant and stupid and bond for hell and scum and ..." (Oops, got carried away there. I just don't know what got into me.)

 

[Meriweather]

So you lean towards the God is the Watchmaker view.

My understanding of that view is something on the order of, "There is a watch, so there must be a watchmaker." I take a more topsy-turvy stand. "Look, there is a watchmaker! We can expect to see watches!"

I was simply trying to point out is that Mr. Fry apparently thinks he can describe the watchmaker by observing how he thinks the watch works.

 

[Meriweather]

Me not. Actually it cleared my mind.
And I am confirmed on a daily basis.

The purpose of religion is to draw one closer to God. In your case, it seems it was driving a wedge between you and God. If you are closer to God without religion, then that is the way it should be. Not blaming anyone, just observing that in your case a muddled mess was being made, and I am truly glad you cleared away that mess.

 

[indiajo]

[


My understanding of that view is something on the order of, "There is a watch, so there must be a watchmaker." I take a more topsy-turvy stand. "Look, there is a watchmaker! We can expect to see watches!"

.

Yeah, that is completely understood.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Listening to atheists on religion is like listening to Helen Keller on Impressionism

 

[HenryBHough]

Chesterton often used double-negatives to sucker in the semi-literate.

Downright prophetic about the coming Muslim world-domination in his 1914 novel: The Flying Inn

 

[indiajo]

The purpose of religion is to draw one closer to God. In your case, it seems it was driving a wedge between you and God. If you are closer to God without religion, then that is the way it should be. Not blaming anyone, just observing that in your case a muddled mess was being made, and I am truly glad you cleared away that mess.

Oh well, now comes the psycho part of the insinuation.

No, I am not closer to god. No, I don't hear Jesus talking to me.
You know why? Because your preachers could not really overcome my inner harness against bullshit, as they try with every child they can get a hold on.

I am a science freak. It fascinated me as a little child already. I was sucking down every little bit I could get, what was a little more complicated 50 years ago. O.k. I am a bit too dumb for real science, so I became an engineer.

More than that, I read everyrthing I could reach starting with 5. And I think this was like a vaccine.
Remarkably, i could memorize everything I had read once. This ability vanished regrettably over time, but back then it helped a lot to uncover all the lies I was told.
My response to "this is as the bible says" was pretty often "no, it isn't" and was mostly not really appreciated. Especially because the little boy was right. Very embarrassing.

You know what you miss? You miss the knowledge of historical circumstances.
The religious stories, even the one of Joseph Smith, were without exception set up from people without any knowledge about the true physical conditions of our surrounding.
Even physicians were debating 200 years ago if a giant coal fire could cause the energy that makes the sun shine. The DNA containing nucleus in cells and its biological meaning was discovered more by accident mid of the 19th century.
All generatons before, say up to Lavoisier in 17hundred something, had no idea at all how and why things worked the way they did.
You should know, that for example the warfts which built sailing ships in the middle ages just knew that wood is floating, and a hollow body is floating better. They had not the slightest education in calculating
the hull of a boat or the sails, they just took what worked before and made changes by trial and error, This resulted pretty often in occurances like the one with the swedish flagship VASA turning turtle 1628 just after the launch.
(Compared to us, landing a probe on the asteroid Rosetta in more than 500 million kilometers from earth, we are getting smarter, aren't we?)
And what you believe are exactly the sagas and stories this ancient people invented, partly to explain a frightening world they did not understand, soon combined with the knowledge that this was perfectly suitable to get their audience to obey their rules.

We know by now a lot about the brain functions that support such delusions. The brain generally works with delusions. We don't see the world as ist is. we see it as it was useful for same naked monkeys in the African fields. We have the false positive trigger in our head that protects our survival even if there is no danger, but also gives us the impression of a meaning behind everything. This seems slowly to become a dangerous effect in combination with our frontal cortex that underlines all that with pseudo logical arguments.

This was all fine as long as we were only a few on this planet and needed weeks to get somewhere to kill people believing in the wrong god, with clubs.
Today it makes the world a pretty dangerous place.

 

[RosieS]

If I treated a dog the way the God of western civilization treats His children.....and got caught....I would be facing serious jail time.

And rightfully so.

Regards from Rosie

 

[RandomVariable]

The purpose of religion is to draw one closer to God. In your case, it seems it was driving a wedge between you and God. If you are closer to God without religion, then that is the way it should be. Not blaming anyone, just observing that in your case a muddled mess was being made, and I am truly glad you cleared away that mess.

Oh well, now comes the psycho part of the insinuation.

No, I am not closer to god. No, I don't hear Jesus talking to me.
You know why? Because your preachers could not really overcome my inner harness against bullshit, as they try with every child they can get a hold on.

I am a science freak. It fascinated me as a little child already. I was sucking down every little bit I could get, what was a little more complicated 50 years ago. O.k. I am a bit too dumb for real science, so I became an engineer.

More than that, I read everyrthing I could reach starting with 5. And I think this was like a vaccine.
Remarkably, i could memorize everything I had read once. This ability vanished regrettably over time, but back then it helped a lot to uncover all the lies I was told.
My response to "this is as the bible says" was pretty often "no, it isn't" and was mostly not really appreciated. Especially because the little boy was right. Very embarrassing.

You know what you miss? You miss the knowledge of historical circumstances.
The religious stories, even the one of Joseph Smith, were without exception set up from people without any knowledge about the true physical conditions of our surrounding.
Even physicians were debating 200 years ago if a giant coal fire could cause the energy that makes the sun shine. The DNA containing nucleus in cells and its biological meaning was discovered more by accident mid of the 19th century.
All generatons before, say up to Lavoisier in 17hundred something, had no idea at all how and why things worked the way they did.
You should know, that for example the warfts which built sailing ships in the middle ages just knew that wood is floating, and a hollow body is floating better. They had not the slightest education in calculating
the hull of a boat or the sails, they just took what worked before and made changes by trial and error, This resulted pretty often in occurances like the one with the swedish flagship VASA turning turtle 1628 just after the launch.
(Compared to us, landing a probe on the asteroid Rosetta in more than 500 million kilometers from earth, we are getting smarter, aren't we?)
And what you believe are exactly the sagas and stories this ancient people invented, partly to explain a frightening world they did not understand, soon combined with the knowledge that this was perfectly suitable to get their audience to obey their rules.

We know by now a lot about the brain functions that support such delusions. The brain generally works with delusions. We don't see the world as ist is. we see it as it was useful for same naked monkeys in the African fields. We have the false positive trigger in our head that protects our survival even if there is no danger, but also gives us the impression of a meaning behind everything. This seems slowly to become a dangerous effect in combination with our frontal cortex that underlines all that with pseudo logical arguments.

This was all fine as long as we were only a few on this planet and needed weeks to get somewhere to kill people believing in the wrong god, with clubs.
Today it makes the world a pretty dangerous place.

You know the one I love the most? Leviticus 14:55, what to do if your house catches leprosy. Of course a house can not catch leprosy but it sure gave me a good laugh. There are parts of the OT that first time I read them had me gasping for air I was laughing so hard. Some of that stuff still cracks me up. Some stuff has transformed into something completely different however. It is like looking at an object a ways off and thinking one knows what it is. As one gets closer to it there is a shift between the first impression and actual understanding. God told me to read the OT and so I do and I try to understand it best I can. I have become wary that I do not enter a building that has caught leporsy and I think I have figured out how to trick a Jewish guy out of his ox by pushing the ox into a pit but I also have a growing awe of the Bible that surpasses anything this would could ever produce.

As far a complete mutual annihilation, my God gave us rainbows.

 

[Meriweather]

The purpose of religion is to draw one closer to God. In your case, it seems it was driving a wedge between you and God. If you are closer to God without religion, then that is the way it should be. Not blaming anyone, just observing that in your case a muddled mess was being made, and I am truly glad you cleared away that mess.

Oh well, now comes the psycho part of the insinuation.

No, I am not closer to god. No, I don't hear Jesus talking to me.
You know why? Because your preachers could not really overcome my inner harness against bullshit, as they try with every child they can get a hold on.

I am a science freak. It fascinated me as a little child already. I was sucking down every little bit I could get, what was a little more complicated 50 years ago. O.k. I am a bit too dumb for real science, so I became an engineer.

More than that, I read everyrthing I could reach starting with 5. And I think this was like a vaccine.
Remarkably, i could memorize everything I had read once. This ability vanished regrettably over time, but back then it helped a lot to uncover all the lies I was told.
My response to "this is as the bible says" was pretty often "no, it isn't" and was mostly not really appreciated. Especially because the little boy was right. Very embarrassing.

You know what you miss? You miss the knowledge of historical circumstances.
The religious stories, even the one of Joseph Smith, were without exception set up from people without any knowledge about the true physical conditions of our surrounding.
Even physicians were debating 200 years ago if a giant coal fire could cause the energy that makes the sun shine. The DNA containing nucleus in cells and its biological meaning was discovered more by accident mid of the 19th century.
All generatons before, say up to Lavoisier in 17hundred something, had no idea at all how and why things worked the way they did.
You should know, that for example the warfts which built sailing ships in the middle ages just knew that wood is floating, and a hollow body is floating better. They had not the slightest education in calculating
the hull of a boat or the sails, they just took what worked before and made changes by trial and error, This resulted pretty often in occurances like the one with the swedish flagship VASA turning turtle 1628 just after the launch.
(Compared to us, landing a probe on the asteroid Rosetta in more than 500 million kilometers from earth, we are getting smarter, aren't we?)
And what you believe are exactly the sagas and stories this ancient people invented, partly to explain a frightening world they did not understand, soon combined with the knowledge that this was perfectly suitable to get their audience to obey their rules.

We know by now a lot about the brain functions that support such delusions. The brain generally works with delusions. We don't see the world as ist is. we see it as it was useful for same naked monkeys in the African fields. We have the false positive trigger in our head that protects our survival even if there is no danger, but also gives us the impression of a meaning behind everything. This seems slowly to become a dangerous effect in combination with our frontal cortex that underlines all that with pseudo logical arguments.

This was all fine as long as we were only a few on this planet and needed weeks to get somewhere to kill people believing in the wrong god, with clubs.
Today it makes the world a pretty dangerous place.

All interesting, but not what I meant. I, too, grew up with a love of science--and even teach it. The physical world is a marvelous place, and there is a lot to learn, and a lot still left to learn.

My belief and personal experience is that there is also a spiritual realm. I am as fully interested in that as I am in the physical one. Just as people have come to know more about science, so we come to know more about theology and spirit, if we are open to it.

If science gets something wrong today, will we cease to take note of it tomorrow? I won't. Nor will I cease to take note of theology for the same reason. I choose to explore both.