*Turkey Next Shit Hole To Go Up In Puff Of Smoke*

[ekrem]

It's unbelievable.... the whole region is falling like a house of cards...

Yes. This is a remarkable time in history, for so many reasons! And we are here.....

I want to figure out what it MEANS, this serious Islam collapse of nations.

Here's my personal analysis for now: ALL, 100%, of the initial protests are always leftist. That's true in Istanbul this past week, too. They were protesting against Ergodan's creeping authoritarianism and his desire to change the constitution for a dictatorial third term, and of course the park --- a relative who is second-generation Turkish-American says it's the LAST park in Istanbul, going down of course to developers.

Then what has happened every single time is that after the chaos, the rightist fundamentalist Islamists take over. That will happen in Turkey, too, because the population is basically rightwing in the countryside, as everywhere, and Ergodan was ahead already, had ruled for ten years.

I think this will happen in America, too: leftists start it, rightists finish it and win it.

The leftist Muslims want to join the 20th century so they protest ------ bad move, because they are direly outnumbered by rightwing traditionalists.

No.
Party leader of the right-wing Nationalists (13% of votes) announced, that they won't join any protests. In general they act in line with the Government.
Nationalist Movement Party - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Turkey has a lot of violence potential from marxist-style cold-war area communists operating in the underground (many outlawed). It's not about the right-wing taking over the protests from leftists, but the peaceful "leftists" going home and the anarchists taking over, which has already happened according to my opinion when I look at the vandalism.

 

[JimBowie1958]

JimBowie -

Erdogan won the election fair and square, but it was a very difficult decision for the military (to allow him to rule). I think they did the right thing, myself, because his party (AKP?) is moderate enough that I think they can walk the path between moderate Islam and secularism.

Winning an election has never stopped the Army from tossing out Islamacists before.

I think the shit with Isreal, our behavior in Afghanistan and Iraq, and the fact that they see westerners pushing their cultural values on Turks, all of this and more are pushing the Army to defend the Islamacists and side with them more.

 

[Circe]

Turkey has a lot of violence potential from marxist-style cold-war area communists operating in the underground (many outlawed). It's not about the right-wing taking over the protests from leftists, but the peaceful "leftists" going home and the anarchists taking over, which has already happened according to my opinion when I look at the vandalism.

Very likely, but when the anarchy has destroyed civil society for awhile, the usual result (Egypt, for instance, Libya coming along that way) is for rightwing conservative Islamists to take control.

So you are not thinking Turkey will go into a tailspin like Egypt and Tunisia and so on and on? What would stabilize the country? Has Turkey gone so far to the right already with Ergodan that the right won't let the anarchists and what-not get too far out of control?

Maybe this is Ergodan's opportunity to establish a dictatorship, like Franco in Spain. Rightwing conquest of societies after leftwing revolutions most often end up with a strongman dictator, of course.

 

[ekrem]

Marxists putting guantanamo-style head-bag over US soldier

hurriyetdailynews.com

[youtube]wUgoxFvZoGI[/youtube]

 

[ekrem]

Marxists attacking German NATO Patriots troop deployment
Sabah English
German soldiers attacked in southern Turkey - Xinhua | English.news.cn

Marxists trying to attack Dutch NATO Patriot deployment
[youtube]xxmcYrj65Tw[/youtube]

 

[ekrem]

US Embassy Ankara bombing in February by Marxists

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/03/w...up-claims-attack-on-us-embassy-in-turkey.html

 

[ekrem]

Marxists bombing Syrian-Turkish border crossing

Turkish government blames Marxists with Syrian connections in bombings - CNN.com

 

[JimBowie1958]

Marxists bombing Syrian-Turkish border crossing

Turkish government blames Marxists with Syrian connections in bombings - CNN.com

Assad playing tit-for-tat.

The Marxists have no chance, where the Islamic Brotherhood most certainly can remove Assad.

 

[Rambunctious]

What is happening in the middle east and northern Africa is the Islamic radicalization of those nations under the tutelage of the Muslim Brotherhood. All under Obama's watch. You're a buffoon if you think it's just happenstance.

 

[Esmeralda]

Turkey has already fought off the Russians, the French, the British, Greece @ the breakup & subsequent attempted partition of the Ottoman Empire @ the end of WWI. Kamal Attaturk managed to institutionalize a secular, relatively moderate form of government. He outlasted the Shah of Iran, & managed to retire from government without bringing down the whole structure. Not a bad start.

Why do we think it's falling apart now, after all this time?

Turkey is a wonderful country. Saying it is falling apart because of protests in downtown Istanbul is ludicrous. That's like saying the US is falling apart because of any one protest there. There have been times when the US appeared to other countries just as full of chaos, when, in fact, we know those protests are limited to certain areas and certain situations. Turkey is an ancient country with a lot of history and culture: far more than the US. It is definitely not a 'shit hole.' To say so shows a great deal of ignorance.

Turkey will straighten out its problems. Ignoramuses who post what the OP posted: please stay home. Keep to your own back yard. You are the kind of person that makes intelligent, thinking Americans look bad.

Last year London had protests just as bad as what is happening in Istanbul right now. No one thought the UK was falling apart.

Turkey is a beautiful country rich in history and culture.

 

[Circe]

[Turkey is a wonderful country. Saying it is falling apart because of protests in downtown Istanbul is ludicrous. That's like saying the US is falling apart because of any one protest there.

Denial........fully half of all political districs in Turkey had protests, many violent, according to the front-page article on the Wall Street Journal today.

"The Woman in Red" has quickly become an icon of the protests, a beautiful woman standing still while a thuggish police sprays her with tear gas.

(Reuters 6/3) - In her red cotton summer dress, necklace and white bag slung over her shoulder she might have been floating across the lawn at a garden party; but before her crouches a masked policeman firing teargas spray that sends her long hair billowing upwards.

Endlessly shared on social media and replicated as a cartoon on posters and stickers, the image of the woman in red has become the leitmotif for female protesters during days of violent anti-government demonstrations in Istanbul.

"That photo encapsulates the essence of this protest," says math student Esra at Besiktas, near the Bosphorus strait and one of the centres of this week's protests. "The violence of the police against peaceful protesters, people just trying to protect themselves and what they value."

I do not know why some people want to say that Muslim country X can't POSSIBLY, possibly fall to the "Arab Spring" chaos, when civil war and chaos is breaking out all over. Hey, it COULD, it is everywhere else, why not Turkey?

It's just defend Muslims no matter what, no matter how awful they are, for some of you. You probably would complain if this sort of violence were happening proportionally in America, but since it's Muslims, you downplay it and say it's just fine.

Turkey is probably going down, though, like all the others, sadly, although it gives me great hopes now that Iran will go also. That would be very helpful to the United States' interests.

 

[alpine]

I do not know why some people want to say that Muslim country X can't POSSIBLY, possibly fall to the "Arab Spring" chaos, when civil war and chaos is breaking out all over. Hey, it COULD, it is everywhere else, why not Turkey?

Cause Turkey is different compared to any other middle eastern country. Cause Turkey is capitalist, comparing to all other fundamentalist middle eastern countries. It is life or death for middle easterners, but it is business for turks, like everything else, including religion.

So considering this fact, Turkey is more like western countries. I see these protests being against only one man, Recep Tayyip Erdogan who is now being criticized by the bigwigs of his own party. He is probably going to be replaced in the next elections, by his own voters. Thats something you don't see in any other middle eastern country whatsoever. And this is called democracy, and turks apparently have it

 

[Circe]

I do not know why some people want to say that Muslim country X can't POSSIBLY, possibly fall to the "Arab Spring" chaos, when civil war and chaos is breaking out all over. Hey, it COULD, it is everywhere else, why not Turkey?

Cause Turkey is different compared to any other middle eastern country. Cause Turkey is capitalist, comparing to all other fundamentalist middle eastern countries. It is life or death for middle easterners, but it is business for turks, like everything else, including religion.

So considering this fact, Turkey is more like western countries. I see these protests being against only one man, Recep Tayyip Erdogan who is now being criticized by the bigwigs of his own party. He is probably going to be replaced in the next elections, by his own voters. Thats something you don't see in any other middle eastern country whatsoever. And this is called democracy, and turks apparently have it

No, indeed, not yet they do not have democracy, not if it fails as I expect: you are making unfounded assumptions about the future, which is as dark for you as for everyone else. You don't know that Erdogan will be replaced!! I doubt that very much: he is maneuvering for a dictator's third term!! Which would hardly be democracy.

You are saying Turkey won't go the way of so many other Muslim countries in this epochal uprising, because they are more Western. Well, they have become more and more and more Islamic under Erdogan and fundamentalist Islamists are the majority, so I'm betting Turkey goes down: back to the Fez! Back to the burkas and required hair-coverings.

A huge giant movement is happening, a collapse of the Ummah's current political structure. I think Turkey will go down since they have moved way to the right and also are direly affected by the spreading Syrian civil war. Given the terrible refugee problem and the Syrian warfighters coming in, I don't see how Turkey can stay out of the sadly named "Arab Spring."

But we'll see. Maybe you'll be right, but we can't see into the future. It looks dire right now and many other countries have gone down into the most awful chaos; I don't know why people just say cheerfully, oh, can't possibly happen here!!

Of course it can.

 

[alpine]

I do not know why some people want to say that Muslim country X can't POSSIBLY, possibly fall to the "Arab Spring" chaos, when civil war and chaos is breaking out all over. Hey, it COULD, it is everywhere else, why not Turkey?

Cause Turkey is different compared to any other middle eastern country. Cause Turkey is capitalist, comparing to all other fundamentalist middle eastern countries. It is life or death for middle easterners, but it is business for turks, like everything else, including religion.

So considering this fact, Turkey is more like western countries. I see these protests being against only one man, Recep Tayyip Erdogan who is now being criticized by the bigwigs of his own party. He is probably going to be replaced in the next elections, by his own voters. Thats something you don't see in any other middle eastern country whatsoever. And this is called democracy, and turks apparently have it

No, indeed, not yet they do not have democracy, not if it fails as I expect: you are making unfounded assumptions about the future, which is as dark for you as for everyone else. You don't know that Erdogan will be replaced!! I doubt that very much: he is maneuvering for a dictator's third term!! Which would hardly be democracy.

You are saying Turkey won't go the way of so many other Muslim countries in this epochal uprising, because they are more Western. Well, they have become more and more and more Islamic under Erdogan and fundamentalist Islamists are the majority, so I'm betting Turkey goes down: back to the Fez! Back to the burkas and required hair-coverings.

A huge giant movement is happening, a collapse of the Ummah's current political structure. I think Turkey will go down since they have moved way to the right and also are direly affected by the spreading Syrian civil war. Given the terrible refugee problem and the Syrian warfighters coming in, I don't see how Turkey can stay out of the sadly named "Arab Spring."

But we'll see. Maybe you'll be right, but we can't see into the future. It looks dire right now and many other countries have gone down into the most awful chaos; I don't know why people just say cheerfully, oh, can't possibly happen here!!

Of course it can.

Your claim that fundamentalist are the majority is not correct. I wonder if you have ever been to Turkey. Yes, Turkey has fundamentalists, but they are the minority if you compare them to the capitalist conservative religious majority carried Erdogan to power in 2002. Religion is not a life or death matter for most of Turkish muslims. They don't want sharia, hey don't want fundamentalists to rule, just because they enjoy capitalism. They can see what fundamentalist islam brings very closely in Iran. They have close ties to those countries suffering under authoritarian islamist regimes, and this is a big plus for them. They don't have to experiment a backward revolution, because Iran already had it and they do NOT like it. They are warning turks, do NOT go that path.

Do you know what Erdogan told to the masses, before his first election. He told them that he is not a fundamentalist anymore. And he got 38% vote. Than he did implement capitalist policies, which did bring some prosperity and people voted 48%.

So as you can see, Erdogan's rise is not because he was a fundamentalist, but vice versa, because he did go away from fundamentalist idea he was once a part of, in the direction of free economy and capitalism.

The conservative religious people do not want to become Iran nor Saudi Arabia. They want to be like US or Britain or France. They enjoy their freedom from fundamental religious rules. And they are reminded what it would be like if they did not have that freedom, ever day, by their neighbors.

So to summarize, Turkey has a great luck, to be founded by people with the western ideas in their heads and being able to hold against revolutionary acts of both communists and fundamental islamists till up to this point. Now it is only one way for Turkey. Its close economic relations with west will pave their road to a democratic future. You can bet on that.

 

[Circe]

Cause Turkey is different compared to any other middle eastern country. Cause Turkey is capitalist, comparing to all other fundamentalist middle eastern countries. It is life or death for middle easterners, but it is business for turks, like everything else, including religion.

So considering this fact, Turkey is more like western countries. I see these protests being against only one man, Recep Tayyip Erdogan who is now being criticized by the bigwigs of his own party. He is probably going to be replaced in the next elections, by his own voters. Thats something you don't see in any other middle eastern country whatsoever. And this is called democracy, and turks apparently have it

No, indeed, not yet they do not have democracy, not if it fails as I expect: you are making unfounded assumptions about the future, which is as dark for you as for everyone else. You don't know that Erdogan will be replaced!! I doubt that very much: he is maneuvering for a dictator's third term!! Which would hardly be democracy.

You are saying Turkey won't go the way of so many other Muslim countries in this epochal uprising, because they are more Western. Well, they have become more and more and more Islamic under Erdogan and fundamentalist Islamists are the majority, so I'm betting Turkey goes down: back to the Fez! Back to the burkas and required hair-coverings.

A huge giant movement is happening, a collapse of the Ummah's current political structure. I think Turkey will go down since they have moved way to the right and also are direly affected by the spreading Syrian civil war. Given the terrible refugee problem and the Syrian warfighters coming in, I don't see how Turkey can stay out of the sadly named "Arab Spring."

But we'll see. Maybe you'll be right, but we can't see into the future. It looks dire right now and many other countries have gone down into the most awful chaos; I don't know why people just say cheerfully, oh, can't possibly happen here!!

Of course it can.

Your claim that fundamentalist are the majority is not correct. I wonder if you have ever been to Turkey. Yes, Turkey has fundamentalists, but they are the minority if you compare them to the capitalist conservative religious majority carried Erdogan to power in 2002. Religion is not a life or death matter for most of Turkish muslims. They don't want sharia, hey don't want fundamentalists to rule, just because they enjoy capitalism. They can see what fundamentalist islam brings very closely in Iran. They have close ties to those countries suffering under authoritarian islamist regimes, and this is a big plus for them. They don't have to experiment a backward revolution, because Iran already had it and they do NOT like it. They are warning turks, do NOT go that path.

Do you know what Erdogan told to the masses, before his first election. He told them that he is not a fundamentalist anymore. And he got 38% vote. Than he did implement capitalist policies, which did bring some prosperity and people voted 48%.

So as you can see, Erdogan's rise is not because he was a fundamentalist, but vice versa, because he did go away from fundamentalist idea he was once a part of, in the direction of free economy and capitalism.

The conservative religious people do not want to become Iran nor Saudi Arabia. They want to be like US or Britain or France. They enjoy their freedom from fundamental religious rules. And they are reminded what it would be like if they did not have that freedom, ever day, by their neighbors.

So to summarize, Turkey has a great luck, to be founded by people with the western ideas in their heads and being able to hold against revolutionary acts of both communists and fundamental islamists till up to this point. Now it is only one way for Turkey. Its close economic relations with west will pave their road to a democratic future. You can bet on that.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, reads like a flack piece: you aren't employed by the Turkish government to prop up opinon of Turkey despite these violent riots, are you? Because I am not interested in discussing things with paid propagandists. That is pointless.

You are of course wrong about Erdogan leaving fundamentalism since the whole world knows he has gone more and more in that direction in the ten years he has been ruling, and he wants an illegal third term, and that bad direction is precisely why the riots are happening! They aren't happening because secularists don't like the color of his eyes, you know. There is a reason: Erdogan's Islamism, and his corrupt collaboration with the developers of the last park in Istanbul. I haven't been to Turkey but I have a Turkish-American relative by marriage who is pretty exercised by all this and knows they have corruptly developed EVERY park in Istanbul: this was the last one.

The left always starts the riots, the right always ends up taking over. That is what I expect in the next few weeks in Turkey. This is somewhat unfortunate for the U.S. since Turkey was the most westernized, but at least it ups the possibility of Iran going up in smoke, which of course would be good for us.

 

[chesswarsnow]

Sorry bout that,

Oh, and by the OP -no one who has ever been to Turkey would call it a shithole.

Always good to see a thread begin from a position of total ignorance.

Islam and those who follow it are unruly people, they will always be barbarians, evil, murderers, full of hate.

So...you are NOT full of hate?

1. No not at all I'm hurt you would even think that!


Regards,
SirJamesofTexas

 

[alpine]

No, indeed, not yet they do not have democracy, not if it fails as I expect: you are making unfounded assumptions about the future, which is as dark for you as for everyone else. You don't know that Erdogan will be replaced!! I doubt that very much: he is maneuvering for a dictator's third term!! Which would hardly be democracy.

You are saying Turkey won't go the way of so many other Muslim countries in this epochal uprising, because they are more Western. Well, they have become more and more and more Islamic under Erdogan and fundamentalist Islamists are the majority, so I'm betting Turkey goes down: back to the Fez! Back to the burkas and required hair-coverings.

A huge giant movement is happening, a collapse of the Ummah's current political structure. I think Turkey will go down since they have moved way to the right and also are direly affected by the spreading Syrian civil war. Given the terrible refugee problem and the Syrian warfighters coming in, I don't see how Turkey can stay out of the sadly named "Arab Spring."

But we'll see. Maybe you'll be right, but we can't see into the future. It looks dire right now and many other countries have gone down into the most awful chaos; I don't know why people just say cheerfully, oh, can't possibly happen here!!

Of course it can.

Your claim that fundamentalist are the majority is not correct. I wonder if you have ever been to Turkey. Yes, Turkey has fundamentalists, but they are the minority if you compare them to the capitalist conservative religious majority carried Erdogan to power in 2002. Religion is not a life or death matter for most of Turkish muslims. They don't want sharia, hey don't want fundamentalists to rule, just because they enjoy capitalism. They can see what fundamentalist islam brings very closely in Iran. They have close ties to those countries suffering under authoritarian islamist regimes, and this is a big plus for them. They don't have to experiment a backward revolution, because Iran already had it and they do NOT like it. They are warning turks, do NOT go that path.

Do you know what Erdogan told to the masses, before his first election. He told them that he is not a fundamentalist anymore. And he got 38% vote. Than he did implement capitalist policies, which did bring some prosperity and people voted 48%.

So as you can see, Erdogan's rise is not because he was a fundamentalist, but vice versa, because he did go away from fundamentalist idea he was once a part of, in the direction of free economy and capitalism.

The conservative religious people do not want to become Iran nor Saudi Arabia. They want to be like US or Britain or France. They enjoy their freedom from fundamental religious rules. And they are reminded what it would be like if they did not have that freedom, ever day, by their neighbors.

So to summarize, Turkey has a great luck, to be founded by people with the western ideas in their heads and being able to hold against revolutionary acts of both communists and fundamental islamists till up to this point. Now it is only one way for Turkey. Its close economic relations with west will pave their road to a democratic future. You can bet on that.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, reads like a flack piece: you aren't employed by the Turkish government to prop up opinon of Turkey despite these violent riots, are you? Because I am not interested in discussing things with paid propagandists. That is pointless.

You are of course wrong about Erdogan leaving fundamentalism since the whole world knows he has gone more and more in that direction in the ten years he has been ruling, and he wants an illegal third term, and that bad direction is precisely why the riots are happening! They aren't happening because secularists don't like the color of his eyes, you know. There is a reason: Erdogan's Islamism, and his corrupt collaboration with the developers of the last park in Istanbul. I haven't been to Turkey but I have a Turkish-American relative by marriage who is pretty exercised by all this and knows they have corruptly developed EVERY park in Istanbul: this was the last one.

The left always starts the riots, the right always ends up taking over. That is what I expect in the next few weeks in Turkey. This is somewhat unfortunate for the U.S. since Turkey was the most westernized, but at least it ups the possibility of Iran going up in smoke, which of course would be good for us.

I am with the protestors with all my heart. It would make me sad to see Turkey going backwards. But you have to understand one thing, these protestors have one common enemy in mind, it is Tayyip Erdogan. He has been one man for 10 years. This has corrupted him big time. But Turks have one thing to understand and that became more and more obvious to them during this past 3 terms of Erdogan, Turkey has a conservative religious majority. So it will be them mostly effecting the future of this country, if Turkey will be a democracy, just because math is math, just because 2x2=4.

But conservatives also realized something, democracy means stability and stability means prosperity.

I see these last 10 years a period for elements of Turkish society meeting each other, understanding each other, and more important than all; to think like each other.

Now conservatives can see authoritarian maniac dictators like Erdogan will not bring peace nor prosperity to the country. They elected him to power because they were angry to the militaristic ruling in the country. But now things have changed, and changed forever. It will probably be another conservative religious guy ruling Turkey after Erdogan, but I bet he will not be a psychopath like Erdogan. And you know why, because those people just lost 33 bilion dollars of their wealth in stock exchange just because Erdogan was a hard headed dictator in just 6 days of turmoil.

After all, politics and religion is a business in Turkey, just like it is in the west. And that brings democracy...

Peace V

 

[Esmeralda]

Does no one pay attention to what's happening in Turkey?

There is a government that has a façade of being secular, while it must pander to the majority muslim population. That population has had quite enough of secularism and wants an Islamic theocracy. How long can the government stand against a people who want that government to be very different? The government itself would prefer to be a theocracy but has to keep up the pretense of being secular for the benefit of the west.

Add into the Turkish mix, the Kurds who want independence and the situation becomes extremely volatile like the middle east is.

This is total BS. You do not know what you are talking about. It is the other way around. The government of Turkey is democratic because of Attaturk, the founder of modern Turkey after WWI. It is not catering to the West and the 'people' don't want a theocracy. The current president is too conservative and religious and the people are protesting against him.

It has absoultely nothing to do with catering to the West. It is that people are not happy with the president. The conflict is between those who want to maintain Attaturk's vision of a modern, secular government and society and those who have other ideas, those who are more conservative religiously, as is the current president.

Modern, secular Turkey will prevail. This is not really a huge crisis, they just need a new president. And, btw, there is no 'facade' whatsoever about the government being secular. Turkey is a secular country. The current president has been trying to make the government less secular, which is the problem. They need to get rid of him. Rathern than the 'people' having had enough of secularism and wanting a theocracy, it is the people who do not want a theocracy. There is a division between the people, yes. Like in the States, where we have people, conservative Christians, who would like a more Christian oriented government (you see those ideas being expressed on this board everyday), the majority of Turks want to maintain what they have had since 1923 when Attaturk created a modern, secular government.

 

[Avatar4321]

Time to nuke the place...We don't want this shit spreading.

First, does it bother you at all to suggest the murder of countless people at all? There may be time to use nuclear weapons, but do you really think with an awesome weapon like that, we should suggest using it so casually to take life?

Second, it's already been spreading. It's been spreading for the past 2-3 years. We are currently fighting a proxy war in Syria because of it.

Nations are aligning for war. Let's pray that it doesnt end up being a full out conflict. Because if it does, we are looking at WW3.

 

[Avatar4321]

Time to nuke the place...We don't want this shit spreading.

No. Just let them kill each other. While they're doing that, at least they aren't plotting to kill us.

Turkey is your ALLY, genius.

Turkey is also an ALLY of Israel, by the way.

And our government has been betraying our allies left and right. What's one more?