*Turkey Next Shit Hole To Go Up In Puff Of Smoke*

[alpine]

The best that could be said of Turkey was that it was a very stable country at one time. It is obviously not a stable country now. People living on the coast are more European because part of Turkey is on the continent of Europe. Part of Turkey is on the continent of Asia and follows more fundamentalist Islamic principles.

The controversy over the park was just an excuse. It could have been any excuse, it just happened to be this one. The fundamentalist faction is using this to establish control over the nation. Any little fissure can be exploited by islamists. Add into this volatile mix, the separatist Kurds who have a vested interest in destabilization and Turkey becomes a country falling apart.

The rise of fundamentalist islam in Turkey was readily apparent ten years ago. It's been doing nothing but growing for a very long time.

Most of the Turkish people do NOT have a religious agenda. Economy is the priority like it is in the west. Erdogan got only around 35% when he first got elected in 2002, although he used religion like a back scratch stick.

Most of his support comes from the economic development as a result of capitalism and privatization, as seen in Argentina under Menem. He increased his vote to 50% because of that. There is a rise in fundamentalists projection of power, this is not because of their numbers soaring but Erdogan still being able to provide economic growth to the country. But he will not be able to deliver that in an unstable country, thats for sure.

 

[ekrem]

 

[alpine]

ops sorry, wrong dictator...

 

[ekrem]

The best that could be said of Turkey was that it was a very stable country at one time. It is obviously not a stable country now. People living on the coast are more European because part of Turkey is on the continent of Europe. Part of Turkey is on the continent of Asia and follows more fundamentalist Islamic principles.

The controversy over the park was just an excuse. It could have been any excuse, it just happened to be this one. The fundamentalist faction is using this to establish control over the nation. Any little fissure can be exploited by islamists. Add into this volatile mix, the separatist Kurds who have a vested interest in destabilization and Turkey becomes a country falling apart.

The rise of fundamentalist islam in Turkey was readily apparent ten years ago. It's been doing nothing but growing for a very long time.

Another expert.
For your information, Turkey is rated by 2 of the 3 biggest credit-rating agencies as "investment-grade".
There's no instability and no fundamentalism.

The Prime-Minister is leading this region's biggest peoples' movement and his votes will increase given he has created millions of jobs since last elections in an environment of global-crisis.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/middl...obs-created-in-turkey-since-april-2009-a.html

 

[alpine]

The best that could be said of Turkey was that it was a very stable country at one time. It is obviously not a stable country now. People living on the coast are more European because part of Turkey is on the continent of Europe. Part of Turkey is on the continent of Asia and follows more fundamentalist Islamic principles.

The controversy over the park was just an excuse. It could have been any excuse, it just happened to be this one. The fundamentalist faction is using this to establish control over the nation. Any little fissure can be exploited by islamists. Add into this volatile mix, the separatist Kurds who have a vested interest in destabilization and Turkey becomes a country falling apart.

The rise of fundamentalist islam in Turkey was readily apparent ten years ago. It's been doing nothing but growing for a very long time.

Another expert.
For your information, Turkey is rated by 2 of the 3 biggest credit-rating agencies as "investment-grade".
There's no instability and no fundamentalism.

The Prime-Minister is leading this region's biggest peoples' movement and his votes will increase given he has created millions of jobs since last elections in an environment of global-crisis.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/middl...obs-created-in-turkey-since-april-2009-a.html

Hmm, credit rating agencies ha.

Lets check some human rights agencies, what the grade is.

oppppssss...

 

[alpine]

Oh, btw, anybody want to hear a funny joke;

Napoleon Bonaparte rises up in modern times. He decides to visit some world leaders.

He meets Obama and at the end of the meeting says: "Monsieur Obama, if I did have the army you have, I would have never lost Waterloo."

Then visits Russia. Meets Putin and says: "Monsieur Putin, if I did have the covert-op organization you have, I would have never lost Waterloo."

Then visits Turkey. Meets Erdogan and says: "Monsieur Erdogan, if I did have the press you have, nobody would know I lost Waterloo."

These are all the big Turkish papers with same title on the biggest day of the clashes. Do they all look the same or my eyes deceive me?

Not to mention Erdogan threatening the press and call them to obey him. Providing generous credits to his allies to acquire those media companies, etc...

So we should not blame Turks filling in that square. They don't know their PM is an incompetent lunatic starting civil wars not only in Syria but in his own country also.

 

[alpine]

The Erdogan supporters claim the protestor were trying to build a nuclear bomb (this is not funny, it is real)

Yes, out of milk and fruit juice, and some eggs I guess,... oh and a plastic chair.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgkY3Etcjc8]Mahalle Bask?s? Alt?nda Gözalt? - Ergenekon Caddesi - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Esmeralda]

No dictator becomes a dictator overnight. No dictator comes to power as a dictator either(in democratic ways). Power corrupts.

He got elected 3 terms and a fourth on the way. In civilized democracies there are rules against that for a reason.

Watch him, closely, listen even closer. He is a dictator, because he dictates. He never listens to anyone. There is no single case he listened to anyone.

The same in the last gezi park incident, he goes into a meeting with the protestor leaders, he tells them their options and walks out. Again, dictating whatever he has in mind. This is dialogue to him. He thinks he is so democratic, because he could actually not even give em any options, but rather just run 'em over.

And btw this is what his best friend, he was right next to Erdogan in his last speech openly said:

"You are lucky this is democracy, otherwise we would be drowning you all!"

So to his point of view, as long as he is not drowning you, he is a democrat and you are lucky that he is one.

This is a solid, clear dictator guys, a true modern day dictator. The times of the old bloddy dictators are over, because there is no need to be one when you can become a democratic(?!) dictator. Hail the new dictator, Erdogan, the polarizer, the dictate errrrr......





Yes, Turkey is divided. But the division is not a religious division like in Syria (they should thank to Ataturk for that), nor like a democratic political division in US. It is more like a division in understanding and lifestyles. It can be overcome so easily, but obviously not by Erdogan.

I have lived in Turkey. And I am in touch with people who are Turks, living there, or Westerners who have lived there for 25-30 years. They do not believe there is any chance of Turkey falling apart. It is Erdogan's last term in office. He will be replaced. Most likely with someone more middle of the road, someone who does not want the devisiveness we are seeing now, which has simply come to a head. Turkey is not going to fall apart. Sorry to disappoint you. And it's not going to become a theocracy because of someone like Erdogan. When I lived there, only 8 years ago, it was illegal to insult Ataturk. Do you have credible, verifiable evidence that Erdogan has insulted Ataturk?

Then last week Erdogan defended his anti-alcohol legislation by obliquely calling Ataturk and his closest ally, Ismet Inonu, a couple of "drunkards".

Turkey's protesters proclaim themselves the true heirs of their nation's founding father | World news | The Observer

I don't want to get into the debate of "who lived in Turkey more than the other" or "who has more Turkish friends in facebook". I just want to crank some history, to put this subject on some solid ground.

Lets start what gezi park is. Gezi park has a very distinct place in anatolian history, way before modern Turkey was established, it was called Ottoman back then. As all we know, Ottoman was a backward country ruled by religious institutions, just like europe in the middle ages, and Iran at the moment. While western countries progressed by pushing the separation of church and the state to their societies, Ottoman was not able to put himself on this path, becoming more and more backward. Then western countries pushed Ottomans to enact their first constitution, recognizing his religious and ethnic minorities and giving them some freedom, along with the muslim majority. But religious institutions feel pressurized by this new "gavur icadi" (which means westerners invention, make of the devil) and started a backward revolution attempt. And as you guessed, it was started right where gezi park is, there was the barracks of soldiers supporting the religious institutions rather than the constitutional government. And guess who put that revolution down??? Mustafa Kemal, aka Ataturk. And now Erdogan plans to re-build those barracks, instead of gezi park.

This is just the beginning. There is a lot more to that. Just another small detail, do you know who put the law against insulting Ataturk in place? It is Menderes himself, whom Erdogan claims to be the successor of. But the reason Menderes put that law in place was not because he was a fan of Ataturk, but because there was a religious cult openly ridiculing Ataturk because of him abolishing the caliphate, sultanate and bunch of religious institutions, and for not being a proper muslim, drinking alcohol( ) and Menderes simply did not want to be seen as a backwards leader. Otherwise he was opposing Ataturk for his reforms especially because of his land reform giving the poor some land to live on. I can understand that since Menderes was one of the biggest land owners in Turkey.

And about Erdogan having his last term as a PM, it is true that he can not get elected as a PM anymore but I would not be so sure about Erdogan being out of the picture. He is trying to change the parliamentary system to a presidential one, so he now he can get elected as a president, not a PM.

So when I claim Turkey being on a slippery slope, I am trying to base myself on these historical processes Turkey has been through, the facts of its religion and its geographical location that also plays a big role in its relations to the rest of the world which naturally effecting its politics.

And one last detail from history, do you know how long it did take Romains from chanting for Ceausescu, to shoot him like a dog in front of a wall? 48 hours...

Don't try to demean my post. I have never been on Facebook. When I refer to contacts and friends in Turkey, I refer to real life people with whom I am in contact by email and who I visit there on occasion. Friends I made while I lived there and worked with these people for 2 years. You seem to be basing your entire perspective on what you've read about the history of Turkey, while at the same time having no real life experience of it. According to my Turkish friends, the problem with Erdogan is religious. Not religious as in Sunni vs Shia but that he is too religious. They also believe their democracy is not a true or complete democracy, so there is that too, but not just focusing on Erdogan. You are not living there. You are not in the middle of this; your opinions are based on what you've read. That's like a European forumating 'the actual, real state of things in the US' without ever being here or being involved with the real situation and people.

BTW, Erdogan is not facing another term. He is done. He's on the way out. He's not going to be able to change the structure of the government. He's not Henry the Eighth or Cromwell. Turkey is not that vulnerable or unstable. There are millions and millions of highly educated, sophisticated, worldly Turkish people who will not allow that. Erdogan might like to be a dictator, but he isn't. He is nothing at all like Asad, and Turkey is truly and absolutely nothing like Syria. But you wouldn't know that because you base your entire perspective on reading about it.

 

[Synthaholic]

The best that could be said of Turkey was that it was a very stable country at one time. It is obviously not a stable country now. People living on the coast are more European because part of Turkey is on the continent of Europe. Part of Turkey is on the continent of Asia and follows more fundamentalist Islamic principles.

The controversy over the park was just an excuse. It could have been any excuse, it just happened to be this one. The fundamentalist faction is using this to establish control over the nation. Any little fissure can be exploited by islamists. Add into this volatile mix, the separatist Kurds who have a vested interest in destabilization and Turkey becomes a country falling apart.

The rise of fundamentalist islam in Turkey was readily apparent ten years ago. It's been doing nothing but growing for a very long time.

Another expert.
For your information, Turkey is rated by 2 of the 3 biggest credit-rating agencies as "investment-grade".
There's no instability and no fundamentalism.

The Prime-Minister is leading this region's biggest peoples' movement and his votes will increase given he has created millions of jobs since last elections in an environment of global-crisis.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/middl...obs-created-in-turkey-since-april-2009-a.html

I do not understand your support for Erdogan, Ekram.

Aren't you a Kemalist? Or are you an Islamist?

 

[Synthaholic]

#duranadam

 

[krych3k]

The best that could be said of Turkey was that it was a very stable country at one time. It is obviously not a stable country now. People living on the coast are more European because part of Turkey is on the continent of Europe. Part of Turkey is on the continent of Asia and follows more fundamentalist Islamic principles.

The controversy over the park was just an excuse. It could have been any excuse, it just happened to be this one. The fundamentalist faction is using this to establish control over the nation. Any little fissure can be exploited by islamists. Add into this volatile mix, the separatist Kurds who have a vested interest in destabilization and Turkey becomes a country falling apart.

The rise of fundamentalist islam in Turkey was readily apparent ten years ago. It's been doing nothing but growing for a very long time.

Another expert.
For your information, Turkey is rated by 2 of the 3 biggest credit-rating agencies as "investment-grade".
There's no instability and no fundamentalism.

The Prime-Minister is leading this region's biggest peoples' movement and his votes will increase given he has created millions of jobs since last elections in an environment of global-crisis.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/middl...obs-created-in-turkey-since-april-2009-a.html

Creating 3.4 million jobs is just one fact, and it's missing a lot of context if you're trying to sell us on a message of Erdogan being a wise steward of the Turkish economy. We need to know what kinds of jobs those are (hours, salaries/benefits, etc), changes to net worth of residents, changes to the cost of living, changes to debt and deficits, and demographic changes (Turkey is a country of about 80 million people and needs a minimum number of job growth simply to maintain a certain level of employment). My point? Throwing out a random fact like that may convince the economically illiterate, but some of us understand economics more than the average ninth-grader need more meat to chew on before we're convinced.

 

[alpine]

I have lived in Turkey. And I am in touch with people who are Turks, living there, or Westerners who have lived there for 25-30 years. They do not believe there is any chance of Turkey falling apart. It is Erdogan's last term in office. He will be replaced. Most likely with someone more middle of the road, someone who does not want the devisiveness we are seeing now, which has simply come to a head. Turkey is not going to fall apart. Sorry to disappoint you. And it's not going to become a theocracy because of someone like Erdogan. When I lived there, only 8 years ago, it was illegal to insult Ataturk. Do you have credible, verifiable evidence that Erdogan has insulted Ataturk?

Then last week Erdogan defended his anti-alcohol legislation by obliquely calling Ataturk and his closest ally, Ismet Inonu, a couple of "drunkards".

Turkey's protesters proclaim themselves the true heirs of their nation's founding father | World news | The Observer

I don't want to get into the debate of "who lived in Turkey more than the other" or "who has more Turkish friends in facebook". I just want to crank some history, to put this subject on some solid ground.

Lets start what gezi park is. Gezi park has a very distinct place in anatolian history, way before modern Turkey was established, it was called Ottoman back then. As all we know, Ottoman was a backward country ruled by religious institutions, just like europe in the middle ages, and Iran at the moment. While western countries progressed by pushing the separation of church and the state to their societies, Ottoman was not able to put himself on this path, becoming more and more backward. Then western countries pushed Ottomans to enact their first constitution, recognizing his religious and ethnic minorities and giving them some freedom, along with the muslim majority. But religious institutions feel pressurized by this new "gavur icadi" (which means westerners invention, make of the devil) and started a backward revolution attempt. And as you guessed, it was started right where gezi park is, there was the barracks of soldiers supporting the religious institutions rather than the constitutional government. And guess who put that revolution down??? Mustafa Kemal, aka Ataturk. And now Erdogan plans to re-build those barracks, instead of gezi park.

This is just the beginning. There is a lot more to that. Just another small detail, do you know who put the law against insulting Ataturk in place? It is Menderes himself, whom Erdogan claims to be the successor of. But the reason Menderes put that law in place was not because he was a fan of Ataturk, but because there was a religious cult openly ridiculing Ataturk because of him abolishing the caliphate, sultanate and bunch of religious institutions, and for not being a proper muslim, drinking alcohol( ) and Menderes simply did not want to be seen as a backwards leader. Otherwise he was opposing Ataturk for his reforms especially because of his land reform giving the poor some land to live on. I can understand that since Menderes was one of the biggest land owners in Turkey.

And about Erdogan having his last term as a PM, it is true that he can not get elected as a PM anymore but I would not be so sure about Erdogan being out of the picture. He is trying to change the parliamentary system to a presidential one, so he now he can get elected as a president, not a PM.

So when I claim Turkey being on a slippery slope, I am trying to base myself on these historical processes Turkey has been through, the facts of its religion and its geographical location that also plays a big role in its relations to the rest of the world which naturally effecting its politics.

And one last detail from history, do you know how long it did take Romains from chanting for Ceausescu, to shoot him like a dog in front of a wall? 48 hours...

Don't try to demean my post. I have never been on Facebook. When I refer to contacts and friends in Turkey, I refer to real life people with whom I am in contact by email and who I visit there on occasion. Friends I made while I lived there and worked with these people for 2 years. You seem to be basing your entire perspective on what you've read about the history of Turkey, while at the same time having no real life experience of it. According to my Turkish friends, the problem with Erdogan is religious. Not religious as in Sunni vs Shia but that he is too religious. They also believe their democracy is not a true or complete democracy, so there is that too, but not just focusing on Erdogan. You are not living there. You are not in the middle of this; your opinions are based on what you've read. That's like a European forumating 'the actual, real state of things in the US' without ever being here or being involved with the real situation and people.

BTW, Erdogan is not facing another term. He is done. He's on the way out. He's not going to be able to change the structure of the government. He's not Henry the Eighth or Cromwell. Turkey is not that vulnerable or unstable. There are millions and millions of highly educated, sophisticated, worldly Turkish people who will not allow that. Erdogan might like to be a dictator, but he isn't. He is nothing at all like Asad, and Turkey is truly and absolutely nothing like Syria. But you wouldn't know that because you base your entire perspective on reading about it.

Oh, btw, another fun fact about Turkey; Erdogan is now planning to construct another bridge on bosporus, the 3rd one. And you know what he will name it? Yavuz Sultan Selim bridge. And you know who this Selim guy is? He is an ottoman sultan, butchered thousands of alevis (turkish shia minority), just because..... they were not muslim enough(!?!?!?!).

So you think Erdogan will just leave the scene like that. He served 3 terms and he will say enough is enough.

Latest comment from Erdogan: "You expect me to be mellow? Menderes (remember my last post?) was mellow and you hanged him!"

For Erdogan, this is life or death matter. He will do everything in his power to get the presidential system in place in the next year to be re-elected as the first sultan of Turkey. He openly said he did not want any separation of powers before, so you can imagine where Turkey maybe heading now. Maybe not.

And aside from all that, you are telling me nobody should try commenting about USA without the knowledge of USA (which is barely 500 years) and you can just put whatever you are thinking out there about some region in the world in which people lived, fight, laughed, eat, drink together for the last,... I don't know,... 10.000 years maybe more, starting from the first day of agriculture, without any knowledge of this history? You can talk to as many people as you like or visit as many places as you like, without history, you are lost forever. Because what you will listen from people is their biases, nothing more. Even history is biased And Turkey is a special case also, with its long time military guardianship, disbanding political thinking in the society, de-politicizing youth with pressure and torture, I don't expect any Turk to know more than you about his/her past. I bet most of them did not know what was in place of gezi park(my last post again), before all this mess.

I respect whatever your friends are saying, and totally respect whatever your experience was when you visited there, but you lack of one thing, historical chronological knowledge of the region you are commenting on.

And you are right on one thing, this guys is no Assad and this is no Turkish spring, this is worse. Turkey is in a slippery slope. This guy is a true dictator, but worse than that, he is a democratically elected one. It is easy to get rid of a dictator who forced himself in, but it will not be as easy to get rid of this one. We have seen similars in history. No one can determine where he will push Turkey to. You can not predict that. But I see his hardened views and his constant success with his unsustainable policies as his biggest weakness because he got marginalized without realizing it and sooner than later he will realize what a big mess he is in to.

AKP is a big union of different conservative factions. I am hoping they will not allow Erdogan to play it like a toy. The president of Turkey, who has some minor power considered to the PM, openly criticizing Erdogan himself. Polls show he is head to head in terms of peoples votes with Erdogan.

So to summarize, I believe common sense will make everything better for Turks at the end. This was something they must have done for a long time but timing is not too bad. But on the other hand, I have to say this is a slippery slope. This is numbers game. Most likely, Erdogan will lose at the end, but there is a chance he will succeed. And if you think that there is no way he can, I simply find your logic faulty...