TULIP (God calls some to atheism)

[Meriweather]

Why would God have sent his angel if Christianity did not need revision and correction?

I have no opinion on this. What do you believe?

 

[Hollie]

and none of them, none, ever, have been verifiable.

Most philosophies ideas, not physical realities. Only physical realities can be verified. Philosophies must be lived, and each individual should be able to note whether a philosophy is true and works in his/her unique life.

Believing what Jesus said about the Father, his obedience to the Father, and his relation to the Father varies from person to person. If the philosophy/idea that sins are forgiven works in their life, this is reason to believe what Jesus also said about God. If one sees no sin in life, and no need for forgiveness, they may have a different take.

I don't see the rational nexus connecting the philosophy/idea that sins are forgiven, as allegedly made by Jesus, leading to a reason to believe in a partisan God is necessarily a reasonable approach. Such an idea of a philosophical concept leading to an acceptance of unqualified statements is one reason why people such as Marshall Applewhite, Jim Jones, etc., cause such damage.

 

[Meriweather]

I don't see the rational nexus connecting the philosophy/idea that sins are forgiven, as allegedly made by Jesus, leading to a reason to believe in a partisan God is necessarily a reasonable approach.

You lost me at "a partisan God." You believe that people believe in a partisan God?

 

[Hollie]

Why would God have sent his angel if Christianity did not need revision and correction?

I have no opinion on this. What do you believe?

Odd that you have no opinion. Why believe what Jesus claimed and not believe what Muhammud claimed?

My belief, and history shows such, that appeals to supernatural entities have been an effective vehicle for those seeking to control masses of people, be it for power or destruction or material gains.

 

[Hollie]

I don't see the rational nexus connecting the philosophy/idea that sins are forgiven, as allegedly made by Jesus, leading to a reason to believe in a partisan God is necessarily a reasonable approach.

You lost me at "a partisan God." You believe that people believe in a partisan God?

Obviously.

From the web: "Partisan definition, an adherent or supporter of a person, group, party, or cause, especially a person who shows a biased, emotional allegiance.''

Religions are partisan in terms of the Gods ruling those religions.

 

[Likkmee]

Is Judas "the kisser" going to Hell ?

 

[Hollie]

Is Judas "the kisser" going to Hell ?

In a hand basket if he makes unwanted advances toward me.

 

[Meriweather]

Odd that you have no opinion. Why believe what Jesus claimed and not believe what Muhammud claimed?

I have studied the Bible. I have lived the Bible. This is my focus. Your questions are better addressed by someone who has studied the Quran, has lived the Quran, and knows the original languages, culture, and history.

 

[ding]

That was effectively Karl Marx's position too.

God didn’t give me any details on the matter. If I were you I would just send me the 12 cents or God will deduct $75.00 from your bank account automatically at an undetermined date in the future. Is it really worth the risk? You could have the financial assurance that your account is protected from the wrath of God. Wait. Hold up. I think my daughter might have 12 cents in her piggy bank. But do you accept her as a bunny rabbit with butterfly wings that shoots ice cream from her fingertips? If you will believe in her as the butterflied wing ice cream shooting bunny rabbit then I can steal the 12 cents from her on your behalf but only if you truly believe it. Do you accept or decline? I guess you have to decide how important that $75 is to you. There are only three options for you.

Option 1: Have God deduct $75 from your bank account.
Option 2: Send me 12 cents.
Option 3: Accept the 12 cents obtained from my daughter through theft as atonement for your blatant rebellion against God’s crystal clear command to give me 12 cents.

Chose this day how you will proceed. I bet you think I am making this up and God never spoke to me. Am I right?

I think you are starting to lose it, bro. You don't seem to be able to separate religion from God. They are two different things. You are letting your bias against religion interfere with your relationship with God. If I am to believe your account, you left being manipulated by one group to be manipulated by another group. At some point you need to start thinking objectively for yourself.

 

[Meriweather]

My belief, and history shows such, that appeals to supernatural entities have been an effective vehicle for those seeking to control masses of people, be it for power or destruction or material gains.

Those who seek to control masses will have different reasons than one who has no interest in control, but wishes to live an enriching, fulfilling life. That is the greater majority of people. Some can be controlled with shouts of, Mom and Apple Pie! People are wise to those who wish to control. Shouts of, For God! are no longer as effective. Once government realized this doesn't work so well for them any more, letting a large number of people gather to worship God becomes worrisome. Who knows what they may come up with that is not government sanctioned?

Keep in mind, not all in government are after control. As long as we keep these people in government, religious freedom should be able to pull through with no government controlling it.

 

[Meriweather]

Religions are partisan in terms of the Gods ruling those religions.

Shrug. Religions may, or may not be, partisan. God is not.

 

[Meriweather]

s Judas "the kisser" going to Hell ?

No one knows. We do know that in this life it was said it would have been better had he never been born. But that is looking at what occurred in the present life, not the after life.

Did Judas die, totally rejecting God? Some argue that if committed suicide this may have been the case. Others point out that "hanging oneself" had a different connotation in Biblical times. For example, if Judas accidentally tripped and got speared by a stake or tree branch, it would have been noted he hanged himself.

It seems Judas was upset enough about his actions that he flung money back into the Temple and rushed off. Who knows where he was going or what was in his heart at that moment if in his haste he did stumble and "hang himself" on a stone stake, tree branch, etc.

 

[Hollie]

Religions are partisan in terms of the Gods ruling those religions.

Shrug. Religions may, or may not be, partisan. God is not.

That may be accurate, though no reason to accept as true relative to religions other than yours. You do realize that other religions have Gods just as ''real'' as your Gods, right? Unless, of course, your partisan beliefs dismiss all those other Gods and believers as false and corrupted.

 

[Grumblenuts]

So, whether interpreted as "sacrifice" or "suffering," point was the old man either wanted his son to be the victim or his son committed suicide. Then the resurrection takes place which supposedly makes all that bloody horror show seem just fine and dandy. Totally.. worth it!

Another perspective: Jesus' message: Sins are forgiven. (Note he was saying this while he was alive. Your sins are forgiven. Repentance for the forgiveness of sins.

This simple message alarmed religious leaders because it could affect Temple revenues, perhaps even Temple attendance. They told Jesus he had no authority to say such a thing. Only God could decide about the forgiveness of sins. Jesus responded by saying the was anointed by God, his Father, to spread this message. Religious leaders insisted there was no sign, no covenant that this message was true--therefore it came from the devil (or the Tempter).

Jesus insisted he came from God. It came to the point that it was obvious if Jesus kept declaring Sins are forgiven, he would be putting his life in danger. Religious leaders were that upset. Jesus' choice was to quietly retire and preserve his life, or choose obedience to God and continue telling people Your sins are forgiven. We know what he chose.

The result: The idea that sins are forgiven is no longer a shocking statement. In fact, it is almost taken for granted.

Thanks. Now, returning to the actual point, Jesus was obviously representing one interest group competing for power with those representing the established order / authority / oligopoly / cabal of owners protecting their unfair advantage. A shepherd gathers flocks of pissed off rebels by employing competing populist rhetoric, winning over hearts and minds to steal new recruits directly from the opposition who, of course, act swiftly to stop it. Nothing new or abstract really. This sort of battle for power continues everywhere to this day. Think Trump. SSDD. Just because you avoid both trees and forests by burying your head deep in old sand pits and weeds doesn't mean you're handling things very well. You've found a popular, old, highly distracting hobby. Whoop-de-doo!

Oh, what to do about my sins? It's all the rage don't cha know? Heard and seen everywhere these days. Flooding the news. The skies even. Hep me! Hep me!

 

[Hollie]

My belief, and history shows such, that appeals to supernatural entities have been an effective vehicle for those seeking to control masses of people, be it for power or destruction or material gains.

Those who seek to control masses will have different reasons than one who has no interest in control, but wishes to live an enriching, fulfilling life. That is the greater majority of people. Some can be controlled with shouts of, Mom and Apple Pie! People are wise to those who wish to control. Shouts of, For God! are no longer as effective. Once government realized this doesn't work so well for them any more, letting a large number of people gather to worship God becomes worrisome. Who knows what they may come up with that is not government sanctioned?

Keep in mind, not all in government are after control. As long as we keep these people in government, religious freedom should be able to pull through with no government controlling it.

My comments, left unaddressed, were with regard to the historical fact of people who used religion and appeals to supernatural Gods as a means for control, for power and for material gains. Expansion of the religion is both a materialistic proscription, the absorption of wealth and property, and it’s a religious one; conversion of the conquered. Historically speaking, today's examples serve as well. The conflict in the Middle East is about land and power and wealth but also its source is that it is of a divine nature that calls to die and kill for the ongoing expansion of the religion's power and influence.

 

[MisterBeale]

I want to believe in God, and would if I could find the slightest reason to. That would be the greatest thing ever to have a personal relationship with an all knowing, all powerful God who cares about me, and comforts me in the hard times. I'm sure a real God would know how little it would take to convince me, and make me a follower forever, but, if he does exist, he doesn't seem to care about me enough to show he is real..

How little it would take to convince you? Really? There is no evidence you will even consider.

But putting that aside, why is it the creator of existence's job to satisfy your demands? What is your obligation in all of this?

You're making some pretty big assumptions with nothing to back them up, aren't you? After spending most of my life telling myself that there has to be an omnipotent, loving God, and the only reason I couldn't make that connection was because I wasn't praying hard enough, or working hard enough to fulfill his plans for me, I finally realized I have no obligation. If a god really cares enough about me to have his son die for me, and he truly wants me to believe in him, he would at least give me some small reason to believe he exists.

What assumptions did I make? I could walk down the list for reasons for believing God exists and you would deny everyone of them. There is no evidence you will even consider.

You assume no evidence would convince me. However that is exactly what I have found. No evidence.

Because you have systematically denied all evidence. So it sounds like I didn't make an assumption after all.

Shut up Ding. You're just a dick.

That fact that you believe Ding to be the dick? There is your evidence.

 

[Meriweather]

That may be accurate, though no reason to accept as true relative to religions other than yours. You do realize that other religions have Gods just as ''real'' as your Gods, right? Unless, of course, your partisan beliefs dismiss all those other Gods and believers as false and corrupted.

God is One. He is known by many names, and there are many perspectives of Him. God reaches everyone where they are and who they are. He found me in the Catholic faith, one of my daughter's best friends in the Hindu faith; some lovely young men in the Muslim faith, and the ones in my family who are atheist. I may not be able to immerse myself in all faiths--not having the time and capabilities, but God does not have my limitations. He is with all faiths, meeting each one just where they are.

 

[Grumblenuts]

God is One.

Is that a claim?

 

[Meriweather]

My comments, left unaddressed, were with regard to the historical fact of people who used religion and appeals to supernatural Gods as a means for control, for power and for material gains.

So what? Just because some could use religion for their own ends is not exactly unknown. Even back thousands of years there are passages in the Bible that warn of wolves in sheep's clothing; of those pasturing themselves on their sheep. Your observation is not anything new, anything not known. It has been known for thousands of years. It is good to avoid those wolves, those who pasture themselves.

Should all religion be abolished because of this? Should the baby be thrown out with the bath water?

 

[Meriweather]

Is that a claim?

Grumblenuts, as you know that was not great bait to begin with, and it now even more rancid and unappealing. I doubt there will be a nibble, but who knows, patience may win out.