Trump’s Civil War Comments Show ‘Lack’ Of Understanding History

[Political Junky]

What an ignoramus -

 

[frigidweirdo]

What an ignoramus -

Hardly surprising. The guy doesn't know much about much, especially his own country.

 

[cnelsen]

What an ignoramus -

What's wrong with that? He might be right. So instead of just sneering, why don't you explain what was wrong with his comment, if you can.

 

[Mousterian]

I sort of get the feeling he's not a reader...
His every sentence is word salad, seems to have no grasp of grammar, let alone a sense of history.

 

[Political Junky]

What an ignoramus -

What's wrong with that? He might be right. So instead of just sneering, why don't you explain what was wrong with his comment, if you can.

He said he loves the undereducated .. it's obvious why.

 

[gtopa1]

I sort of get the feeling he's not a reader...
His every sentence is word salad, seems to have no grasp of grammar, let alone a sense of history.

He's 'Murcan; what do you expect? Oxford English? And yet you fawned over that convoluted word murderer Obama!! You are now being quite ridiculous.

Greg

 

[gtopa1]

What an ignoramus -

What's wrong with that? He might be right. So instead of just sneering, why don't you explain what was wrong with his comment, if you can.

He said he loves the undereducated .. it's obvious why.

Oh you ARE a two bob snob, aren't you? What is "undereducated"? Self made entrepreneurs? Tradies? Assembly workers? Farmers? More common sense in their bloody fingernails than in a hive of liberal progressives!!

Greg

 

[xband]

What an ignoramus -

Ignoramus gave me a smile because I was once called that by a black woman in Walmart's parking lot because I used two parking spaces. I said this is my new truck and don't want anybody to ding or dent it. She called me "ignoramus" and I only smiled back.

 

[cnelsen]

There’s been a lot of ignorant commentary lately about Donald Trump’s speculation that Andrew Jackson wouldn’t have let the Civil War happen. Doesn’t Trump know that Jackson died 16 years before Fort Sumter?!?

But Trump was right to point to Jackson’s successful handling of South Carolina’s secessionist movement in the 1830s, which was led by Jackson’s initial vice president, the formidable pro-slavery intellectual John C. Calhoun.

The ostensible subject was South Carolina being anti-tariff, but as Calhoun admitted privately in 1830, the ultimate cause was that South Carolina’s “peculiar domestick institution” had made South Carolina different enough that economic policy that was in the national interest would generally not be in South Carolina’s interest.

The crisis began around 1830 with a famous debate in the U.S. Senate between the southerner Hayne and the New Englander Webster:

The debate presented the fullest articulation of the differences over nullification, and 40,000 copies of Webster’s response, which concluded with “liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable”, were distributed nationwide.

Many people expected the states’ rights Jackson to side with Hayne. However once the debate shifted to secession and nullification, Jackson sided with Webster. On April 13, 1830 at the traditional Democratic Party celebration honoring Thomas Jefferson’s birthday, Jackson chose to make his position clear. In a battle of toasts, Hayne proposed, “The Union of the States, and the Sovereignty of the States.” Jackson’s response, when his turn came, was, “Our Federal Union: It must be preserved.” To those attending, the effect was dramatic. Calhoun would respond with his own toast, in a play on Webster’s closing remarks in the earlier debate, “The Union. Next to our liberty, the most dear.” Finally Martin Van Buren would offer, “Mutual forbearance and reciprocal concession. Through their agency the Union was established. The patriotic spirit from which they emanated will forever sustain it.”

Van Buren wrote in his autobiography of Jackson’s toast, “The veil was rent – the incantations of the night were exposed to the light of day.” Senator Thomas Hart Benton, in his memoirs, stated that the toast “electrified the country.”[67] Jackson would have the final words a few days later when a visitor from South Carolina asked if Jackson had any message he wanted relayed to his friends back in the state. Jackson’s reply was:

“ Yes I have; please give my compliments to my friends in your State and say to them, that if a single drop of blood shall be shed there in opposition to the laws of the United States, I will hang the first man I can lay my hand on engaged in such treasonable conduct, upon the first tree I can reach.
​

Jackson’s uncompromising stand in favor of Union, and willingness to use federal might on the side of nationalism, combined with his lack of enthusiasm for tariffs, gave him the opportunity to turn what had looked like a national crisis into routine political horse-trading, with tariffs being reduced enough to allow South Carolinians to climb down from the perch they had gotten out on.

Jackson’s proteges, such as Sam Houston who had fought under Jackson during the War of 1812, and gone on to be governor of Tennessee, President of the Republic of Texas, and finally governor of Texas, tended to be exactly the type of pro-Union Southerners that Lincoln needed more of. In 1861, Houston was deposed as governor of Texas by secessionists because he refused to take a loyalty oath to the Confederacy.

Similarly, Lincoln chose Andrew Johnson, a Jackson-like Tennessee Democrat pro-Union man, as his running mate in 1864.

My personal feeling is that a military confrontation between the Union and South Carolina, font of the ideology that a slave owning oligarchy was the highest form of society, was inevitable at some point in the 19th Century. The big question was how many other states would ally with the South Carolina firebreathers?

Jackson had adeptly kept Calhoun’s South Carolina malcontents isolated by focusing on the key issue of Union.

When it came to the crisis after the 1860 election, South Carolina seceded first, followed quickly by six deep Southern slave states that largely depended upon King Cotton.

But then nothing happened for months, with the other 8 slave states uncertain what to do. Unfortunately, Lincoln didn’t seem to perceive the significance of the national crisis, devoting much of his energy during his first six weeks in the White House to interviewing Republican volunteers seeking local postmaster jobs.

Lincoln’s unreadiness for the big time drove William Seward, Lincoln’s secretary of state, crazy. Seward put forward a plan to re-unite the Union by taking exception to how France and Spain were violating the Monroe Doctrine in response to internal American disarray by colonizing Mexico and the Dominican Republic, respectively. But Lincoln saw Seward’s clever idea as a personal diss and shut down all consideration of it.

Eventually, the Union managed to hang on to four slave states, including crucial Kentucky. But after Fort Sumter, it lost four states to the Confederacy, including Jackson’s old state of Tennessee, where much of the Civil War was fought, and, catastrophically, Virginia, which became the main battlefront. Virginia is further north than any other secessionist state, so it should have stayed in the Union with Kentucky and Missouri. But Lincoln’s belated initiatives to hold Virginia, such as offering Robert E. Lee command of the Union Army, didn’t come until after Virginia had finally voted for secession.

What should have been a quick war thus turned into a 4 year long ordeal that killed 750,000 Americans, largely fought in Jackson’s state of Tennessee and heavily Scots-Irish Virginia.

Moreover, the class ideology of Jacksonism tended to be averse to slavery. Calhounism favored a slave-owning oligarchy that had little need for a flourishing class of white yeomen, except to fight for the oligarchs. The Western-oriented populist Jeffersonian-Jacksonian mindset was largely about small farmers and remained an important force outside of cotton country.

Cotton plantations worked by slaves were so profitable in the deep South that the six Cotton Belt states followed South Carolina, but further north, the Jefferson/Jackson social matrix was stronger. For example, the furthest north Confederate state, Virginia, suffered secession by its hillbilly northwest into the Union state of West Virginia (another reason why belated secession by Virginia seems like such an avoidable tragedy).

A climate map of the United States shows that the rain-watered cotton belt runs out in East Texas, while independent farmers can flourish further west the further north you go. Inevitably, a pro-Western policy like Jackson’s is going to be unenthusiastic about slavery.

 

[cnelsen]

What an ignoramus -

What's wrong with that? He might be right. So instead of just sneering, why don't you explain what was wrong with his comment, if you can.

He said he loves the undereducated .. it's obvious why.

OK, OK, everyone knows you people are great at sneering and otherwise being obnoxious, but why don't you REALLY impress us and state what is so ignorant about Trump's claim. I think you can't.

 

[gtopa1]

What an ignoramus -

Ignoramus gave me a smile because I was once called that by a black woman in Walmart's parking lot because I used two parking spaces. I said this is my new truck and don't want anybody to ding or dent it. She called me "ignoramus" and I only smiled back.

I know the feeling. I was waiting for a parking bay when a sheila screamed into the parking lot. I was actually entering the spot when she tried to push in. I just kept on going and she chickened out(Her car 100,000 bucks; mine about ten quid). As I was locking up the car she hurried over to me and started carrying on and she was quite snaky. I simply commented that her hair was ridiculous and that I could give her the name of my mother's hairdresser to fix it up. Dunno why but she went real quiet and nicked off.

Greg

 

[gtopa1]

There’s been a lot of ignorant commentary lately about Donald Trump’s speculation that Andrew Jackson wouldn’t have let the Civil War happen. Doesn’t Trump know that Jackson died 16 years before Fort Sumter?!?

But Trump was right to point to Jackson’s successful handling of South Carolina’s secessionist movement in the 1830s, which was led by Jackson’s initial vice president, the formidable pro-slavery intellectual John C. Calhoun.

The ostensible subject was South Carolina being anti-tariff, but as Calhoun admitted privately in 1830, the ultimate cause was that South Carolina’s “peculiar domestick institution” had made South Carolina different enough that economic policy that was in the national interest would generally not be in South Carolina’s interest.

The crisis began around 1830 with a famous debate in the U.S. Senate between the southerner Hayne and the New Englander Webster:

The debate presented the fullest articulation of the differences over nullification, and 40,000 copies of Webster’s response, which concluded with “liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable”, were distributed nationwide.

Many people expected the states’ rights Jackson to side with Hayne. However once the debate shifted to secession and nullification, Jackson sided with Webster. On April 13, 1830 at the traditional Democratic Party celebration honoring Thomas Jefferson’s birthday, Jackson chose to make his position clear. In a battle of toasts, Hayne proposed, “The Union of the States, and the Sovereignty of the States.” Jackson’s response, when his turn came, was, “Our Federal Union: It must be preserved.” To those attending, the effect was dramatic. Calhoun would respond with his own toast, in a play on Webster’s closing remarks in the earlier debate, “The Union. Next to our liberty, the most dear.” Finally Martin Van Buren would offer, “Mutual forbearance and reciprocal concession. Through their agency the Union was established. The patriotic spirit from which they emanated will forever sustain it.”

Van Buren wrote in his autobiography of Jackson’s toast, “The veil was rent – the incantations of the night were exposed to the light of day.” Senator Thomas Hart Benton, in his memoirs, stated that the toast “electrified the country.”[67] Jackson would have the final words a few days later when a visitor from South Carolina asked if Jackson had any message he wanted relayed to his friends back in the state. Jackson’s reply was:

“ Yes I have; please give my compliments to my friends in your State and say to them, that if a single drop of blood shall be shed there in opposition to the laws of the United States, I will hang the first man I can lay my hand on engaged in such treasonable conduct, upon the first tree I can reach.
​

Jackson’s uncompromising stand in favor of Union, and willingness to use federal might on the side of nationalism, combined with his lack of enthusiasm for tariffs, gave him the opportunity to turn what had looked like a national crisis into routine political horse-trading, with tariffs being reduced enough to allow South Carolinians to climb down from the perch they had gotten out on.

Jackson’s proteges, such as Sam Houston who had fought under Jackson during the War of 1812, and gone on to be governor of Tennessee, President of the Republic of Texas, and finally governor of Texas, tended to be exactly the type of pro-Union Southerners that Lincoln needed more of. In 1861, Houston was deposed as governor of Texas by secessionists because he refused to take a loyalty oath to the Confederacy.

Similarly, Lincoln chose Andrew Johnson, a Jackson-like Tennessee Democrat pro-Union man, as his running mate in 1864.

My personal feeling is that a military confrontation between the Union and South Carolina, font of the ideology that a slave owning oligarchy was the highest form of society, was inevitable at some point in the 19th Century. The big question was how many other states would ally with the South Carolina firebreathers?

Jackson had adeptly kept Calhoun’s South Carolina malcontents isolated by focusing on the key issue of Union.

When it came to the crisis after the 1860 election, South Carolina seceded first, followed quickly by six deep Southern slave states that largely depended upon King Cotton.

But then nothing happened for months, with the other 8 slave states uncertain what to do. Unfortunately, Lincoln didn’t seem to perceive the significance of the national crisis, devoting much of his energy during his first six weeks in the White House to interviewing Republican volunteers seeking local postmaster jobs.

Lincoln’s unreadiness for the big time drove William Seward, Lincoln’s secretary of state, crazy. Seward put forward a plan to re-unite the Union by taking exception to how France and Spain were violating the Monroe Doctrine in response to internal American disarray by colonizing Mexico and the Dominican Republic, respectively. But Lincoln saw Seward’s clever idea as a personal diss and shut down all consideration of it.

Eventually, the Union managed to hang on to four slave states, including crucial Kentucky. But after Fort Sumter, it lost four states to the Confederacy, including Jackson’s old state of Tennessee, where much of the Civil War was fought, and, catastrophically, Virginia, which became the main battlefront. Virginia is further north than any other secessionist state, so it should have stayed in the Union with Kentucky and Missouri. But Lincoln’s belated initiatives to hold Virginia, such as offering Robert E. Lee command of the Union Army, didn’t come until after Virginia had finally voted for secession.

What should have been a quick war thus turned into a 4 year long ordeal that killed 750,000 Americans, largely fought in Jackson’s state of Tennessee and heavily Scots-Irish Virginia.

Moreover, the class ideology of Jacksonism tended to be averse to slavery. Calhounism favored a slave-owning oligarchy that had little need for a flourishing class of white yeomen, except to fight for the oligarchs. The Western-oriented populist Jeffersonian-Jacksonian mindset was largely about small farmers and remained an important force outside of cotton country.

Cotton plantations worked by slaves were so profitable in the deep South that the six Cotton Belt states followed South Carolina, but further north, the Jefferson/Jackson social matrix was stronger. For example, the furthest north Confederate state, Virginia, suffered secession by its hillbilly northwest into the Union state of West Virginia (another reason why belated secession by Virginia seems like such an avoidable tragedy).

A climate map of the United States shows that the rain-watered cotton belt runs out in East Texas, while independent farmers can flourish further west the further north you go. Inevitably, a pro-Western policy like Jackson’s is going to be unenthusiastic about slavery.

Seems to me that, as is usual, the war was more about $ than slavery. Had the South been "allowed" to keep slaves I think the war would have happened anyway. The end of slavery was a good thing, but the war was fought over other issues. imo of course.

Greg

 

[xband]

There’s been a lot of ignorant commentary lately about Donald Trump’s speculation that Andrew Jackson wouldn’t have let the Civil War happen. Doesn’t Trump know that Jackson died 16 years before Fort Sumter?!?

But Trump was right to point to Jackson’s successful handling of South Carolina’s secessionist movement in the 1830s, which was led by Jackson’s initial vice president, the formidable pro-slavery intellectual John C. Calhoun.

The ostensible subject was South Carolina being anti-tariff, but as Calhoun admitted privately in 1830, the ultimate cause was that South Carolina’s “peculiar domestick institution” had made South Carolina different enough that economic policy that was in the national interest would generally not be in South Carolina’s interest.

The crisis began around 1830 with a famous debate in the U.S. Senate between the southerner Hayne and the New Englander Webster:

The debate presented the fullest articulation of the differences over nullification, and 40,000 copies of Webster’s response, which concluded with “liberty and Union, now and forever, one and inseparable”, were distributed nationwide.

Many people expected the states’ rights Jackson to side with Hayne. However once the debate shifted to secession and nullification, Jackson sided with Webster. On April 13, 1830 at the traditional Democratic Party celebration honoring Thomas Jefferson’s birthday, Jackson chose to make his position clear. In a battle of toasts, Hayne proposed, “The Union of the States, and the Sovereignty of the States.” Jackson’s response, when his turn came, was, “Our Federal Union: It must be preserved.” To those attending, the effect was dramatic. Calhoun would respond with his own toast, in a play on Webster’s closing remarks in the earlier debate, “The Union. Next to our liberty, the most dear.” Finally Martin Van Buren would offer, “Mutual forbearance and reciprocal concession. Through their agency the Union was established. The patriotic spirit from which they emanated will forever sustain it.”

Van Buren wrote in his autobiography of Jackson’s toast, “The veil was rent – the incantations of the night were exposed to the light of day.” Senator Thomas Hart Benton, in his memoirs, stated that the toast “electrified the country.”[67] Jackson would have the final words a few days later when a visitor from South Carolina asked if Jackson had any message he wanted relayed to his friends back in the state. Jackson’s reply was:

“ Yes I have; please give my compliments to my friends in your State and say to them, that if a single drop of blood shall be shed there in opposition to the laws of the United States, I will hang the first man I can lay my hand on engaged in such treasonable conduct, upon the first tree I can reach.
​

Jackson’s uncompromising stand in favor of Union, and willingness to use federal might on the side of nationalism, combined with his lack of enthusiasm for tariffs, gave him the opportunity to turn what had looked like a national crisis into routine political horse-trading, with tariffs being reduced enough to allow South Carolinians to climb down from the perch they had gotten out on.

Jackson’s proteges, such as Sam Houston who had fought under Jackson during the War of 1812, and gone on to be governor of Tennessee, President of the Republic of Texas, and finally governor of Texas, tended to be exactly the type of pro-Union Southerners that Lincoln needed more of. In 1861, Houston was deposed as governor of Texas by secessionists because he refused to take a loyalty oath to the Confederacy.

Similarly, Lincoln chose Andrew Johnson, a Jackson-like Tennessee Democrat pro-Union man, as his running mate in 1864.

My personal feeling is that a military confrontation between the Union and South Carolina, font of the ideology that a slave owning oligarchy was the highest form of society, was inevitable at some point in the 19th Century. The big question was how many other states would ally with the South Carolina firebreathers?

Jackson had adeptly kept Calhoun’s South Carolina malcontents isolated by focusing on the key issue of Union.

When it came to the crisis after the 1860 election, South Carolina seceded first, followed quickly by six deep Southern slave states that largely depended upon King Cotton.

But then nothing happened for months, with the other 8 slave states uncertain what to do. Unfortunately, Lincoln didn’t seem to perceive the significance of the national crisis, devoting much of his energy during his first six weeks in the White House to interviewing Republican volunteers seeking local postmaster jobs.

Lincoln’s unreadiness for the big time drove William Seward, Lincoln’s secretary of state, crazy. Seward put forward a plan to re-unite the Union by taking exception to how France and Spain were violating the Monroe Doctrine in response to internal American disarray by colonizing Mexico and the Dominican Republic, respectively. But Lincoln saw Seward’s clever idea as a personal diss and shut down all consideration of it.

Eventually, the Union managed to hang on to four slave states, including crucial Kentucky. But after Fort Sumter, it lost four states to the Confederacy, including Jackson’s old state of Tennessee, where much of the Civil War was fought, and, catastrophically, Virginia, which became the main battlefront. Virginia is further north than any other secessionist state, so it should have stayed in the Union with Kentucky and Missouri. But Lincoln’s belated initiatives to hold Virginia, such as offering Robert E. Lee command of the Union Army, didn’t come until after Virginia had finally voted for secession.

What should have been a quick war thus turned into a 4 year long ordeal that killed 750,000 Americans, largely fought in Jackson’s state of Tennessee and heavily Scots-Irish Virginia.

Moreover, the class ideology of Jacksonism tended to be averse to slavery. Calhounism favored a slave-owning oligarchy that had little need for a flourishing class of white yeomen, except to fight for the oligarchs. The Western-oriented populist Jeffersonian-Jacksonian mindset was largely about small farmers and remained an important force outside of cotton country.

Cotton plantations worked by slaves were so profitable in the deep South that the six Cotton Belt states followed South Carolina, but further north, the Jefferson/Jackson social matrix was stronger. For example, the furthest north Confederate state, Virginia, suffered secession by its hillbilly northwest into the Union state of West Virginia (another reason why belated secession by Virginia seems like such an avoidable tragedy).

A climate map of the United States shows that the rain-watered cotton belt runs out in East Texas, while independent farmers can flourish further west the further north you go. Inevitably, a pro-Western policy like Jackson’s is going to be unenthusiastic about slavery.

Was it Andrew Jackson who made the trail of tears for the Cherokee Nation? The Cherokee Rose is the state flower of Georgia and a beautiful vine when in bloom.

 

[xband]

What an ignoramus -

Ignoramus gave me a smile because I was once called that by a black woman in Walmart's parking lot because I used two parking spaces. I said this is my new truck and don't want anybody to ding or dent it. She called me "ignoramus" and I only smiled back.

I know the feeling. I was waiting for a parking bay when a sheila screamed into the parking lot. I was actually entering the spot when she tried to push in. I just kept on going and she chickened out(Her car 100,000 bucks; mine about ten quid). As I was locking up the car she hurried over to me and started carrying on and she was quite snaky. I simply commented that her hair was ridiculous and that I could give her the name of my mother's hairdresser to fix it up. Dunno why but she went real quiet and nicked off.

Greg

I can tell you are from Australia by your writing. Red Roos are a problem down under said an Australian friend of mine. Grey Roos good, Red Roos bad to paraphrase.

 

[Unkotare]

What an ignoramus -

Ignoramus gave me a smile because I was once called that by a black woman in Walmart's parking lot because I used two parking spaces. I said this is my new truck and don't want anybody to ding or dent it. She called me "ignoramus" and I only smiled back.

Everyone makes a point of smashing shopping carts into the cars of assholes who park like that.

 

[xband]

What an ignoramus -

Ignoramus gave me a smile because I was once called that by a black woman in Walmart's parking lot because I used two parking spaces. I said this is my new truck and don't want anybody to ding or dent it. She called me "ignoramus" and I only smiled back.

OK, the next time I see any woman driving a new Mercedes Benz and park it in Walmart's parking lot taking two spaces I will endeavor to accidently ding her doors.






Everyone makes a point of smashing shopping carts into the cars of assholes who park like that.

 

[gtopa1]

What an ignoramus -

Ignoramus gave me a smile because I was once called that by a black woman in Walmart's parking lot because I used two parking spaces. I said this is my new truck and don't want anybody to ding or dent it. She called me "ignoramus" and I only smiled back.

I know the feeling. I was waiting for a parking bay when a sheila screamed into the parking lot. I was actually entering the spot when she tried to push in. I just kept on going and she chickened out(Her car 100,000 bucks; mine about ten quid). As I was locking up the car she hurried over to me and started carrying on and she was quite snaky. I simply commented that her hair was ridiculous and that I could give her the name of my mother's hairdresser to fix it up. Dunno why but she went real quiet and nicked off.

Greg

I can tell you are from Australia by your writing. Red Roos are a problem down under said an Australian friend of mine. Grey Roos good, Red Roos bad to paraphrase.

lol. I was "bunging it on" as they say. I can be quite the toff when the occasion demands. The old red roo is the male, tends to grow larger and are very powerful.

Male is red; female is a grey/blue colour.

The "Grey" kanga is a different variety. Smaller and hence less dangerous than the red.

Greg

 

[gtopa1]

btw: if ever you see a Red in this pose...

You're pretty much stuffed unless you shoot it or lock yourself in the 4WD..

Greg

 

[gtopa1]

What an ignoramus -

Ignoramus gave me a smile because I was once called that by a black woman in Walmart's parking lot because I used two parking spaces. I said this is my new truck and don't want anybody to ding or dent it. She called me "ignoramus" and I only smiled back.

OK, the next time I see any woman driving a new Mercedes Benz and park it in Walmart's parking lot taking two spaces I will endeavor to accidently ding her doors.






Everyone makes a point of smashing shopping carts into the cars of assholes who park like that.

Sister-in-law sold her Porsche because people kept dinging it..even when she was legally parked. She got sick of the hassles.

Greg

 

[xband]

What an ignoramus -

Ignoramus gave me a smile because I was once called that by a black woman in Walmart's parking lot because I used two parking spaces. I said this is my new truck and don't want anybody to ding or dent it. She called me "ignoramus" and I only smiled back.

OK, the next time I see any woman driving a new Mercedes Benz and park it in Walmart's parking lot taking two spaces I will endeavor to accidently ding her doors.






Everyone makes a point of smashing shopping carts into the cars of assholes who park like that.

Sister-in-law sold her Porsche because people kept dinging it..even when she was legally parked. She got sick of the hassles.

Greg

I live in America and only buy American made cars or pickup trucks. I don't drink wine but if I did would only buy Napa Valley wine. Globalization sucks.