Trump Russian Asset?

gipper

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There are many questions concerning Trump's inexplicable actions concerning Russia with zero political will to answer them. The republicans don't want to know and the democrats don't want to be seen to have used our intelligence services against him. Perhaps when Trump is no longer relevant in any way we may finally find out just how bad it was.
What actions? Be specific.
You know all the accusations you just spent 5 years fighting. The off the record conversations with Putin. The undeclared Russian agents in his circle. The flat denials of clear Russian interference in the election. The hair on fire efforts to discredit the Steele dossier. The way he was far more hostile to our allies than Putin. The dirty Trump Moscow deal. The Trump tower meeting with Russian agents. The way he treated Ukraine. The way he shamelessly kissed Putin's ass no matter what. The Russians clearly had some sort of leverage over Trump. Why don't you want to know what it was?
You crazy. Just like a rabid Trumper, but don’t know it.
We are dealing with a hostile state that means us harm. Crazy would be just letting them screw with us without repercussions.
No. The danger we face is from our own government. A government that threatens the entire world with extermination. Your failure to recognize this obvious fact does you no favors.
Are you from Russia? You seem to advocating a course of action for America that would favor Putin's expansionist ambitions in Eastern Europe. His tanks would roll tomorrow if he could be certain America and western Europe would stay out of it.
Yeah the truth now means one is a traitor. Please tell me one nation Putin has invaded? Now tell me how many nations the US has invaded. Who wins?

The left has lost their minds. They use to suspect government and power. Now they believe every lying word. WTF!
 

gipper

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NY Mag makes a good case to the affirmative:


From the source:

Trump visited Moscow in July 1987. He stayed at the National Hotel, in the Lenin Suite, which certainly would have been bugged. There is not much else in the public record to describe his visit, except Trump’s own recollection in The Art of the Deal that Soviet officials were eager for him to build a hotel there. (It never happened.)



Trump returned from Moscow fired up with political ambition. He began the first of a long series of presidential flirtations, which included a flashy trip to New Hampshire. Two months after his Moscow visit, Trump spent almost $100,000 on a series of full-page newspaper ads that published a political manifesto. “An open letter from Donald J. Trump on why America should stop paying to defend countries that can afford to defend themselves,” as Trump labeled it, launched angry populist charges against the allies that benefited from the umbrella of American military protection. “Why are these nations not paying the United States for the human lives and billions of dollars we are losing to protect their interests?”

Wrong sub forum. Reported. Should be conspiracy theories. RIght next to Bigfoot.
What makes you think thanks a conspiracy theory? It's not like not came from gateway pundit. NY magazine is a pretty solid source.

Because it is insane nonsense.
There are many questions concerning Trump's inexplicable actions concerning Russia with zero political will to answer them. The republicans don't want to know and the democrats don't want to be seen to have used our intelligence services against him. Perhaps when Trump is no longer relevant in any way we may finally find out just how bad it was.

Are you prepared to fight wwiii over Estonia?
Are you prepared to just let Russia walk all over us and threaten our allies? Apparently so.
We should not be treaty bound to do shit, we are not actually prepared to do.


During the Cold War, I supported the idea that we would fight a war over West Germany.


But now, over ESTONIA?


That is what we are doing and it is insane.


That is not a reasonable policy.


Yet it is our policy.


NATO expansion was a bad idea, and now we have to leave it asap.
Agreed. Trump initially spoke of dismantling NATO, but he eventually expanded it. Further provoking Russia. He continued O’s numerous and onerous sanctions, then expanded economic sanctions on Russia. He allowed multiple war games to occur along Russia’s borders and US war ships plied the wars of the Black and Baltic Seas, further provoking Russia.

None of this is known to Americans who only consume establishment controlled media. It’s dangerous when our media lies and deceives the American people.

IMO, he realized that it was not politically possible to really reduce tensions with Russia and was not prepared to "die" on that hill.
That makes Don a coward. I suppose they told him he could end up like JFK if he pursued peace with Russia, as JFK tried to do.

Watch now as slow Joe ramps up tensions with Russia and the left who used to promote peace, will support him fully.
Letting Putin act with impunity to destroy our sphere of influence is nothing like peace.

So, you think it makes sense to fight wwiii over Estonia?
You think it makes sense to have a policy of automatic appeasement every time Putin acts in a hostile manner? That seems to be what you are suggesting.

I am suggesting that we have a foreign policy that makes sense.


Being treaty bound to fight wwiii over Estonia, does not make sense.


Do you agree?
Russia is in no position to fight World War III. Putin is broke and desperate and he’s military can’t even fight a war against the Ukraine and win.

Any defence of Estonia would be like defending Libya. Two weeks and gone with Putin dead. Russia has so much to lose and even attempting it.

Do you have a logical argument against NATO or are you just doing Putin’s bidding?

That is insane. Estonia is right on their border. We would never be able to hold it, and would have to push our way back in. It would take years, assuming no nukes.


Your confidence is the confidence of a fool.
Why have the left become warmongers? Is it just the result of consuming too much CIA controlled MSM BS?
 
Last edited:

occupied

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There are many questions concerning Trump's inexplicable actions concerning Russia with zero political will to answer them. The republicans don't want to know and the democrats don't want to be seen to have used our intelligence services against him. Perhaps when Trump is no longer relevant in any way we may finally find out just how bad it was.
What actions? Be specific.
You know all the accusations you just spent 5 years fighting. The off the record conversations with Putin. The undeclared Russian agents in his circle. The flat denials of clear Russian interference in the election. The hair on fire efforts to discredit the Steele dossier. The way he was far more hostile to our allies than Putin. The dirty Trump Moscow deal. The Trump tower meeting with Russian agents. The way he treated Ukraine. The way he shamelessly kissed Putin's ass no matter what. The Russians clearly had some sort of leverage over Trump. Why don't you want to know what it was?
You crazy. Just like a rabid Trumper, but don’t know it.
We are dealing with a hostile state that means us harm. Crazy would be just letting them screw with us without repercussions.
No. The danger we face is from our own government. A government that threatens the entire world with extermination. Your failure to recognize this obvious fact does you no favors.
Are you from Russia? You seem to advocating a course of action for America that would favor Putin's expansionist ambitions in Eastern Europe. His tanks would roll tomorrow if he could be certain America and western Europe would stay out of it.
Yeah the truth now means one is a traitor. Please tell me one nation Putin has invaded? Now tell me how many nations the US has invaded. Who wins?

The left has lost their minds. They use to suspect government and power. Now they believe every lying word. WTF!
If you messiah had not spent four years blowing Putin maybe it would be easier to make the case that Putin is not a threat.
 

Fort Fun Indiana

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There are many questions concerning Trump's inexplicable actions concerning Russia with zero political will to answer them. The republicans don't want to know and the democrats don't want to be seen to have used our intelligence services against him. Perhaps when Trump is no longer relevant in any way we may finally find out just how bad it was.
What actions? Be specific.
You know all the accusations you just spent 5 years fighting. The off the record conversations with Putin. The undeclared Russian agents in his circle. The flat denials of clear Russian interference in the election. The hair on fire efforts to discredit the Steele dossier. The way he was far more hostile to our allies than Putin. The dirty Trump Moscow deal. The Trump tower meeting with Russian agents. The way he treated Ukraine. The way he shamelessly kissed Putin's ass no matter what. The Russians clearly had some sort of leverage over Trump. Why don't you want to know what it was?
You crazy. Just like a rabid Trumper, but don’t know it.
We are dealing with a hostile state that means us harm. Crazy would be just letting them screw with us without repercussions.
No. The danger we face is from our own government. A government that threatens the entire world with extermination. Your failure to recognize this obvious fact does you no favors.
Are you from Russia? You seem to advocating a course of action for America that would favor Putin's expansionist ambitions in Eastern Europe. His tanks would roll tomorrow if he could be certain America and western Europe would stay out of it.
Yeah the truth now means one is a traitor. Please tell me one nation Putin has invaded? Now tell me how many nations the US has invaded. Who wins?

The left has lost their minds. They use to suspect government and power. Now they believe every lying word. WTF!
Which country has the US invaded and annexed all or part of? Putin did that to two European countries in the last 15 years.
 

Correll

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NY Mag makes a good case to the affirmative:


From the source:

Trump visited Moscow in July 1987. He stayed at the National Hotel, in the Lenin Suite, which certainly would have been bugged. There is not much else in the public record to describe his visit, except Trump’s own recollection in The Art of the Deal that Soviet officials were eager for him to build a hotel there. (It never happened.)



Trump returned from Moscow fired up with political ambition. He began the first of a long series of presidential flirtations, which included a flashy trip to New Hampshire. Two months after his Moscow visit, Trump spent almost $100,000 on a series of full-page newspaper ads that published a political manifesto. “An open letter from Donald J. Trump on why America should stop paying to defend countries that can afford to defend themselves,” as Trump labeled it, launched angry populist charges against the allies that benefited from the umbrella of American military protection. “Why are these nations not paying the United States for the human lives and billions of dollars we are losing to protect their interests?”

Wrong sub forum. Reported. Should be conspiracy theories. RIght next to Bigfoot.
What makes you think thanks a conspiracy theory? It's not like not came from gateway pundit. NY magazine is a pretty solid source.

Because it is insane nonsense.
There are many questions concerning Trump's inexplicable actions concerning Russia with zero political will to answer them. The republicans don't want to know and the democrats don't want to be seen to have used our intelligence services against him. Perhaps when Trump is no longer relevant in any way we may finally find out just how bad it was.

Are you prepared to fight wwiii over Estonia?
Are you prepared to just let Russia walk all over us and threaten our allies? Apparently so.
We should not be treaty bound to do shit, we are not actually prepared to do.


During the Cold War, I supported the idea that we would fight a war over West Germany.


But now, over ESTONIA?


That is what we are doing and it is insane.


That is not a reasonable policy.


Yet it is our policy.


NATO expansion was a bad idea, and now we have to leave it asap.
Agreed. Trump initially spoke of dismantling NATO, but he eventually expanded it. Further provoking Russia. He continued O’s numerous and onerous sanctions, then expanded economic sanctions on Russia. He allowed multiple war games to occur along Russia’s borders and US war ships plied the wars of the Black and Baltic Seas, further provoking Russia.

None of this is known to Americans who only consume establishment controlled media. It’s dangerous when our media lies and deceives the American people.

IMO, he realized that it was not politically possible to really reduce tensions with Russia and was not prepared to "die" on that hill.
That makes Don a coward. I suppose they told him he could end up like JFK if he pursued peace with Russia, as JFK tried to do.

Watch now as slow Joe ramps up tensions with Russia and the left who used to promote peace, will support him fully.
Letting Putin act with impunity to destroy our sphere of influence is nothing like peace.

So, you think it makes sense to fight wwiii over Estonia?
You think it makes sense to have a policy of automatic appeasement every time Putin acts in a hostile manner? That seems to be what you are suggesting.

I am suggesting that we have a foreign policy that makes sense.


Being treaty bound to fight wwiii over Estonia, does not make sense.


Do you agree?
Russia is in no position to fight World War III. Putin is broke and desperate and he’s military can’t even fight a war against the Ukraine and win.

Any defence of Estonia would be like defending Libya. Two weeks and gone with Putin dead. Russia has so much to lose and even attempting it.

Do you have a logical argument against NATO or are you just doing Putin’s bidding?

That is insane. Estonia is right on their border. We would never be able to hold it, and would have to push our way back in. It would take years, assuming no nukes.


Your confidence is the confidence of a fool.
Why have the left become warmongers. Is just the result of consuming too much CIA controlled MSM BS?

They have become completely hypocritical. THey knee jerk and oppose whatever the republicans are doing. If that means being pro-war, so be it.


Even to the point of walking US towards WWIII.
 

gipper

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There are many questions concerning Trump's inexplicable actions concerning Russia with zero political will to answer them. The republicans don't want to know and the democrats don't want to be seen to have used our intelligence services against him. Perhaps when Trump is no longer relevant in any way we may finally find out just how bad it was.
What actions? Be specific.
You know all the accusations you just spent 5 years fighting. The off the record conversations with Putin. The undeclared Russian agents in his circle. The flat denials of clear Russian interference in the election. The hair on fire efforts to discredit the Steele dossier. The way he was far more hostile to our allies than Putin. The dirty Trump Moscow deal. The Trump tower meeting with Russian agents. The way he treated Ukraine. The way he shamelessly kissed Putin's ass no matter what. The Russians clearly had some sort of leverage over Trump. Why don't you want to know what it was?
You crazy. Just like a rabid Trumper, but don’t know it.
We are dealing with a hostile state that means us harm. Crazy would be just letting them screw with us without repercussions.
No. The danger we face is from our own government. A government that threatens the entire world with extermination. Your failure to recognize this obvious fact does you no favors.
Are you from Russia? You seem to advocating a course of action for America that would favor Putin's expansionist ambitions in Eastern Europe. His tanks would roll tomorrow if he could be certain America and western Europe would stay out of it.
Yeah the truth now means one is a traitor. Please tell me one nation Putin has invaded? Now tell me how many nations the US has invaded. Who wins?

The left has lost their minds. They use to suspect government and power. Now they believe every lying word. WTF!
If you messiah had not spent four years blowing Putin maybe it would be easier to make the case that Putin is not a threat.
Who’s my messiah?
 

gipper

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There are many questions concerning Trump's inexplicable actions concerning Russia with zero political will to answer them. The republicans don't want to know and the democrats don't want to be seen to have used our intelligence services against him. Perhaps when Trump is no longer relevant in any way we may finally find out just how bad it was.
What actions? Be specific.
You know all the accusations you just spent 5 years fighting. The off the record conversations with Putin. The undeclared Russian agents in his circle. The flat denials of clear Russian interference in the election. The hair on fire efforts to discredit the Steele dossier. The way he was far more hostile to our allies than Putin. The dirty Trump Moscow deal. The Trump tower meeting with Russian agents. The way he treated Ukraine. The way he shamelessly kissed Putin's ass no matter what. The Russians clearly had some sort of leverage over Trump. Why don't you want to know what it was?
You crazy. Just like a rabid Trumper, but don’t know it.
We are dealing with a hostile state that means us harm. Crazy would be just letting them screw with us without repercussions.
No. The danger we face is from our own government. A government that threatens the entire world with extermination. Your failure to recognize this obvious fact does you no favors.
Are you from Russia? You seem to advocating a course of action for America that would favor Putin's expansionist ambitions in Eastern Europe. His tanks would roll tomorrow if he could be certain America and western Europe would stay out of it.
Yeah the truth now means one is a traitor. Please tell me one nation Putin has invaded? Now tell me how many nations the US has invaded. Who wins?

The left has lost their minds. They use to suspect government and power. Now they believe every lying word. WTF!
Which country has the US invaded and annexed all or part of? Putin did that to two European countries in the last 15 years.
Lol. Ever heard of Iraq and Afghanistan?

Crimea was always part of Russia and it’s people didn’t want to be part of Ukraine. You do think people should be allowed democratic rights? Right?
 

gipper

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NY Mag makes a good case to the affirmative:


From the source:

Trump visited Moscow in July 1987. He stayed at the National Hotel, in the Lenin Suite, which certainly would have been bugged. There is not much else in the public record to describe his visit, except Trump’s own recollection in The Art of the Deal that Soviet officials were eager for him to build a hotel there. (It never happened.)



Trump returned from Moscow fired up with political ambition. He began the first of a long series of presidential flirtations, which included a flashy trip to New Hampshire. Two months after his Moscow visit, Trump spent almost $100,000 on a series of full-page newspaper ads that published a political manifesto. “An open letter from Donald J. Trump on why America should stop paying to defend countries that can afford to defend themselves,” as Trump labeled it, launched angry populist charges against the allies that benefited from the umbrella of American military protection. “Why are these nations not paying the United States for the human lives and billions of dollars we are losing to protect their interests?”

Wrong sub forum. Reported. Should be conspiracy theories. RIght next to Bigfoot.
What makes you think thanks a conspiracy theory? It's not like not came from gateway pundit. NY magazine is a pretty solid source.

Because it is insane nonsense.
There are many questions concerning Trump's inexplicable actions concerning Russia with zero political will to answer them. The republicans don't want to know and the democrats don't want to be seen to have used our intelligence services against him. Perhaps when Trump is no longer relevant in any way we may finally find out just how bad it was.

Are you prepared to fight wwiii over Estonia?
Are you prepared to just let Russia walk all over us and threaten our allies? Apparently so.
We should not be treaty bound to do shit, we are not actually prepared to do.


During the Cold War, I supported the idea that we would fight a war over West Germany.


But now, over ESTONIA?


That is what we are doing and it is insane.


That is not a reasonable policy.


Yet it is our policy.


NATO expansion was a bad idea, and now we have to leave it asap.
Agreed. Trump initially spoke of dismantling NATO, but he eventually expanded it. Further provoking Russia. He continued O’s numerous and onerous sanctions, then expanded economic sanctions on Russia. He allowed multiple war games to occur along Russia’s borders and US war ships plied the wars of the Black and Baltic Seas, further provoking Russia.

None of this is known to Americans who only consume establishment controlled media. It’s dangerous when our media lies and deceives the American people.

IMO, he realized that it was not politically possible to really reduce tensions with Russia and was not prepared to "die" on that hill.
That makes Don a coward. I suppose they told him he could end up like JFK if he pursued peace with Russia, as JFK tried to do.

Watch now as slow Joe ramps up tensions with Russia and the left who used to promote peace, will support him fully.
Letting Putin act with impunity to destroy our sphere of influence is nothing like peace.

So, you think it makes sense to fight wwiii over Estonia?
You think it makes sense to have a policy of automatic appeasement every time Putin acts in a hostile manner? That seems to be what you are suggesting.

I am suggesting that we have a foreign policy that makes sense.


Being treaty bound to fight wwiii over Estonia, does not make sense.


Do you agree?
Russia is in no position to fight World War III. Putin is broke and desperate and he’s military can’t even fight a war against the Ukraine and win.

Any defence of Estonia would be like defending Libya. Two weeks and gone with Putin dead. Russia has so much to lose and even attempting it.

Do you have a logical argument against NATO or are you just doing Putin’s bidding?

That is insane. Estonia is right on their border. We would never be able to hold it, and would have to push our way back in. It would take years, assuming no nukes.


Your confidence is the confidence of a fool.
Why have the left become warmongers. Is just the result of consuming too much CIA controlled MSM BS?

They have become completely hypocritical. THey knee jerk and oppose whatever the republicans are doing. If that means being pro-war, so be it.


Even to the point of walking US towards WWIII.
Yes and that means they’ve lost their minds. Exactly like the ardent Trumper.
 

Fort Fun Indiana

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Lol. Ever heard of Iraq and Afghanistan?
I have. Which of those countries did we annex?

Who was in power when those invasions were ordered? That's another important point to consider; the regular transition of power here, versus a totalitarian kleptocrat who murders his political opponents and invades & annexes European countries.

It's not close, really. You are not going to put words in "just the right order" to make it a close comparison.
 

gipper

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Lol. Ever heard of Iraq and Afghanistan?
I have. Which of those countries did we annex?

Who was in power when those invasions were ordered? That's another important point to consider; the regular transition of power here, versus a totalitarian kleptocrat who murders his political opponents and invades & annexes European countries.

It's not close, really. You are not going to put words in "just the right order" to make it a close comparison.
Both.
 

Fort Fun Indiana

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Lol. Ever heard of Iraq and Afghanistan?
I have. Which of those countries did we annex?

Who was in power when those invasions were ordered? That's another important point to consider; the regular transition of power here, versus a totalitarian kleptocrat who murders his political opponents and invades & annexes European countries.

It's not close, really. You are not going to put words in "just the right order" to make it a close comparison.
Both.
Lie. No shame at all.
 

gipper

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Lol. Ever heard of Iraq and Afghanistan?
I have. Which of those countries did we annex?

Who was in power when those invasions were ordered? That's another important point to consider; the regular transition of power here, versus a totalitarian kleptocrat who murders his political opponents and invades & annexes European countries.

It's not close, really. You are not going to put words in "just the right order" to make it a close comparison.
Both.
Lie. No shame at all.
Please get informed. To compare the mass murder committed by W’s invasion of Iraq, in which some think caused one million Iraqi deaths to Russia’s returning Crimea to Russia without one death, is dumb. Don’t be dumb.
 
OP
candycorn

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NY Mag makes a good case to the affirmative:


From the source:

Trump visited Moscow in July 1987. He stayed at the National Hotel, in the Lenin Suite, which certainly would have been bugged. There is not much else in the public record to describe his visit, except Trump’s own recollection in The Art of the Deal that Soviet officials were eager for him to build a hotel there. (It never happened.)



Trump returned from Moscow fired up with political ambition. He began the first of a long series of presidential flirtations, which included a flashy trip to New Hampshire. Two months after his Moscow visit, Trump spent almost $100,000 on a series of full-page newspaper ads that published a political manifesto. “An open letter from Donald J. Trump on why America should stop paying to defend countries that can afford to defend themselves,” as Trump labeled it, launched angry populist charges against the allies that benefited from the umbrella of American military protection. “Why are these nations not paying the United States for the human lives and billions of dollars we are losing to protect their interests?”

Wrong sub forum. Reported. Should be conspiracy theories. RIght next to Bigfoot.
What makes you think thanks a conspiracy theory? It's not like not came from gateway pundit. NY magazine is a pretty solid source.

Because it is insane nonsense.
There are many questions concerning Trump's inexplicable actions concerning Russia with zero political will to answer them. The republicans don't want to know and the democrats don't want to be seen to have used our intelligence services against him. Perhaps when Trump is no longer relevant in any way we may finally find out just how bad it was.

Are you prepared to fight wwiii over Estonia?
Are you prepared to just let Russia walk all over us and threaten our allies? Apparently so.
We should not be treaty bound to do shit, we are not actually prepared to do.


During the Cold War, I supported the idea that we would fight a war over West Germany.


But now, over ESTONIA?


That is what we are doing and it is insane.


That is not a reasonable policy.


Yet it is our policy.


NATO expansion was a bad idea, and now we have to leave it asap.
Agreed. Trump initially spoke of dismantling NATO, but he eventually expanded it. Further provoking Russia. He continued O’s numerous and onerous sanctions, then expanded economic sanctions on Russia. He allowed multiple war games to occur along Russia’s borders and US war ships plied the wars of the Black and Baltic Seas, further provoking Russia.

None of this is known to Americans who only consume establishment controlled media. It’s dangerous when our media lies and deceives the American people.

IMO, he realized that it was not politically possible to really reduce tensions with Russia and was not prepared to "die" on that hill.
That makes Don a coward. I suppose they told him he could end up like JFK if he pursued peace with Russia, as JFK tried to do.

Watch now as slow Joe ramps up tensions with Russia and the left who used to promote peace, will support him fully.
Letting Putin act with impunity to destroy our sphere of influence is nothing like peace.

So, you think it makes sense to fight wwiii over Estonia?
You think it makes sense to have a policy of automatic appeasement every time Putin acts in a hostile manner? That seems to be what you are suggesting.

I am suggesting that we have a foreign policy that makes sense.


Being treaty bound to fight wwiii over Estonia, does not make sense.


Do you agree?
Seem to remember another time when it was considered too costly to oppose an expansionist power as they took territory that the western powers didn't really care that much about. WW2 lasted way longer than it should have because Germany was by that time surrounded by occupied territory. You simply cannot let them take that first step or you will eventually be fighting them in your front yard. Provocation must have a measured response otherwise there will be more and bigger provocation. The balance must be maintained even if it means protecting places you are too stupid to find on a map.

That is one way that things can spiral out of control.

Another model is WWI.


imo, Putin is no HItler out to crash and burn.

IMO, our situation is far more like the mess of interlocked treaties that led to the blood bath of wwi.


We have still not given any serious thought to our post Cold War foreign policy goals or interests since the end of hte Cold War.
Your "serious thought" probably includes retreating from the territories of the former Soviet Union and doing nothing should Putin decide to take them back under Russian control. Amazing how many right wingers somehow think that would be a very, very good idea.
They all saw tRump submit to Putin in Geneva so they are lining up to do the same.

You talk like a retarded baby.
You talk like someone who has never valued democracy in the slightest.

If you were serious about your point, you would not want to talk like a retarded baby while making it.


When you do that, you are admitting that your argument is not serious, that what you are really doing it throwing shit at the wall, like a retarded monkey, to see if anything sticks or to create teh illusion of credibility from repetition.


BECAUSE, on some level you know, that your position is complete bullshit.
My position is the one that beat Russia back behind their borders. Yours is the one that is "coincidentally" the same as Putin's.
Of course the big question is this.... The US being less involved overseas involves benefits A) Russia. B) The US. C) Both. I am guessing that blob supporters will state either B or C. They'll never it admit the it plays directly into Russia's hands. Can you imagine if the US had been like that after WWII.... No Berlin Airlift. No Marshall Plan.

Trump supporters really believe that the Russians would have just said, "Oh well, let's play chess and have some vodka" instead of trying to influence West Germany, Italy, France, etc... And, by influence, I mean both overt and covert strikes. See Czechoslovakia, See SE Asia. This is a country that poisons dissidents.

Well, you won't have to imagine it. Thanks to the blob, we've done it with China. Russia would be doing it too--expanding their influence--of course if they had the muscle. Now...why don't they have the muscle? Because we were involved overseas, their markets were not there because our influence was in the arena in Europe, Africa, the Middle East, the Americas. China is only going to grow richer as they replace IBM, Microsoft, General Motors, etc...

Maybe it was inevitable. I doubt it. But every empire falls eventually.
 

Fort Fun Indiana

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Lol. Ever heard of Iraq and Afghanistan?
I have. Which of those countries did we annex?

Who was in power when those invasions were ordered? That's another important point to consider; the regular transition of power here, versus a totalitarian kleptocrat who murders his political opponents and invades & annexes European countries.

It's not close, really. You are not going to put words in "just the right order" to make it a close comparison.
Both.
Lie. No shame at all.
Please get informed. To compare the mass murder committed by W’s invasion of Iraq, in which some think caused one million Iraqi deaths to Russia’s returning Crimea to Russia without one death, is dumb. Don’t be dumb.
Comparing them is the discussion. Your mistake is to think i am making value judgments. Putin has invaded and annexed parts of 2 European countries in the last 15 years. That's a fact. You can smear the US and its mistakes all day, and this fact will still be waiting for you at the end of the day.
 

Correll

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NY Mag makes a good case to the affirmative:


From the source:

Trump visited Moscow in July 1987. He stayed at the National Hotel, in the Lenin Suite, which certainly would have been bugged. There is not much else in the public record to describe his visit, except Trump’s own recollection in The Art of the Deal that Soviet officials were eager for him to build a hotel there. (It never happened.)



Trump returned from Moscow fired up with political ambition. He began the first of a long series of presidential flirtations, which included a flashy trip to New Hampshire. Two months after his Moscow visit, Trump spent almost $100,000 on a series of full-page newspaper ads that published a political manifesto. “An open letter from Donald J. Trump on why America should stop paying to defend countries that can afford to defend themselves,” as Trump labeled it, launched angry populist charges against the allies that benefited from the umbrella of American military protection. “Why are these nations not paying the United States for the human lives and billions of dollars we are losing to protect their interests?”

Wrong sub forum. Reported. Should be conspiracy theories. RIght next to Bigfoot.
What makes you think thanks a conspiracy theory? It's not like not came from gateway pundit. NY magazine is a pretty solid source.

Because it is insane nonsense.
There are many questions concerning Trump's inexplicable actions concerning Russia with zero political will to answer them. The republicans don't want to know and the democrats don't want to be seen to have used our intelligence services against him. Perhaps when Trump is no longer relevant in any way we may finally find out just how bad it was.

Are you prepared to fight wwiii over Estonia?
Are you prepared to just let Russia walk all over us and threaten our allies? Apparently so.
We should not be treaty bound to do shit, we are not actually prepared to do.


During the Cold War, I supported the idea that we would fight a war over West Germany.


But now, over ESTONIA?


That is what we are doing and it is insane.


That is not a reasonable policy.


Yet it is our policy.


NATO expansion was a bad idea, and now we have to leave it asap.
Agreed. Trump initially spoke of dismantling NATO, but he eventually expanded it. Further provoking Russia. He continued O’s numerous and onerous sanctions, then expanded economic sanctions on Russia. He allowed multiple war games to occur along Russia’s borders and US war ships plied the wars of the Black and Baltic Seas, further provoking Russia.

None of this is known to Americans who only consume establishment controlled media. It’s dangerous when our media lies and deceives the American people.

IMO, he realized that it was not politically possible to really reduce tensions with Russia and was not prepared to "die" on that hill.
That makes Don a coward. I suppose they told him he could end up like JFK if he pursued peace with Russia, as JFK tried to do.

Watch now as slow Joe ramps up tensions with Russia and the left who used to promote peace, will support him fully.
Letting Putin act with impunity to destroy our sphere of influence is nothing like peace.

So, you think it makes sense to fight wwiii over Estonia?
You think it makes sense to have a policy of automatic appeasement every time Putin acts in a hostile manner? That seems to be what you are suggesting.

I am suggesting that we have a foreign policy that makes sense.


Being treaty bound to fight wwiii over Estonia, does not make sense.


Do you agree?
Seem to remember another time when it was considered too costly to oppose an expansionist power as they took territory that the western powers didn't really care that much about. WW2 lasted way longer than it should have because Germany was by that time surrounded by occupied territory. You simply cannot let them take that first step or you will eventually be fighting them in your front yard. Provocation must have a measured response otherwise there will be more and bigger provocation. The balance must be maintained even if it means protecting places you are too stupid to find on a map.

That is one way that things can spiral out of control.

Another model is WWI.


imo, Putin is no HItler out to crash and burn.

IMO, our situation is far more like the mess of interlocked treaties that led to the blood bath of wwi.


We have still not given any serious thought to our post Cold War foreign policy goals or interests since the end of hte Cold War.
Your "serious thought" probably includes retreating from the territories of the former Soviet Union and doing nothing should Putin decide to take them back under Russian control. Amazing how many right wingers somehow think that would be a very, very good idea.
They all saw tRump submit to Putin in Geneva so they are lining up to do the same.

You talk like a retarded baby.
You talk like someone who has never valued democracy in the slightest.

If you were serious about your point, you would not want to talk like a retarded baby while making it.


When you do that, you are admitting that your argument is not serious, that what you are really doing it throwing shit at the wall, like a retarded monkey, to see if anything sticks or to create teh illusion of credibility from repetition.


BECAUSE, on some level you know, that your position is complete bullshit.
My position is the one that beat Russia back behind their borders. Yours is the one that is "coincidentally" the same as Putin's.


Are you seriously prepared to fight wwiii over estonia?
 

Correll

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NY Mag makes a good case to the affirmative:


From the source:

Trump visited Moscow in July 1987. He stayed at the National Hotel, in the Lenin Suite, which certainly would have been bugged. There is not much else in the public record to describe his visit, except Trump’s own recollection in The Art of the Deal that Soviet officials were eager for him to build a hotel there. (It never happened.)



Trump returned from Moscow fired up with political ambition. He began the first of a long series of presidential flirtations, which included a flashy trip to New Hampshire. Two months after his Moscow visit, Trump spent almost $100,000 on a series of full-page newspaper ads that published a political manifesto. “An open letter from Donald J. Trump on why America should stop paying to defend countries that can afford to defend themselves,” as Trump labeled it, launched angry populist charges against the allies that benefited from the umbrella of American military protection. “Why are these nations not paying the United States for the human lives and billions of dollars we are losing to protect their interests?”

Wrong sub forum. Reported. Should be conspiracy theories. RIght next to Bigfoot.
What makes you think thanks a conspiracy theory? It's not like not came from gateway pundit. NY magazine is a pretty solid source.

Because it is insane nonsense.
There are many questions concerning Trump's inexplicable actions concerning Russia with zero political will to answer them. The republicans don't want to know and the democrats don't want to be seen to have used our intelligence services against him. Perhaps when Trump is no longer relevant in any way we may finally find out just how bad it was.

Are you prepared to fight wwiii over Estonia?
Are you prepared to just let Russia walk all over us and threaten our allies? Apparently so.
We should not be treaty bound to do shit, we are not actually prepared to do.


During the Cold War, I supported the idea that we would fight a war over West Germany.


But now, over ESTONIA?


That is what we are doing and it is insane.


That is not a reasonable policy.


Yet it is our policy.


NATO expansion was a bad idea, and now we have to leave it asap.
Agreed. Trump initially spoke of dismantling NATO, but he eventually expanded it. Further provoking Russia. He continued O’s numerous and onerous sanctions, then expanded economic sanctions on Russia. He allowed multiple war games to occur along Russia’s borders and US war ships plied the wars of the Black and Baltic Seas, further provoking Russia.

None of this is known to Americans who only consume establishment controlled media. It’s dangerous when our media lies and deceives the American people.

IMO, he realized that it was not politically possible to really reduce tensions with Russia and was not prepared to "die" on that hill.
That makes Don a coward. I suppose they told him he could end up like JFK if he pursued peace with Russia, as JFK tried to do.

Watch now as slow Joe ramps up tensions with Russia and the left who used to promote peace, will support him fully.
Letting Putin act with impunity to destroy our sphere of influence is nothing like peace.

So, you think it makes sense to fight wwiii over Estonia?
You think it makes sense to have a policy of automatic appeasement every time Putin acts in a hostile manner? That seems to be what you are suggesting.

I am suggesting that we have a foreign policy that makes sense.


Being treaty bound to fight wwiii over Estonia, does not make sense.


Do you agree?
Seem to remember another time when it was considered too costly to oppose an expansionist power as they took territory that the western powers didn't really care that much about. WW2 lasted way longer than it should have because Germany was by that time surrounded by occupied territory. You simply cannot let them take that first step or you will eventually be fighting them in your front yard. Provocation must have a measured response otherwise there will be more and bigger provocation. The balance must be maintained even if it means protecting places you are too stupid to find on a map.

That is one way that things can spiral out of control.

Another model is WWI.


imo, Putin is no HItler out to crash and burn.

IMO, our situation is far more like the mess of interlocked treaties that led to the blood bath of wwi.


We have still not given any serious thought to our post Cold War foreign policy goals or interests since the end of hte Cold War.
Your "serious thought" probably includes retreating from the territories of the former Soviet Union and doing nothing should Putin decide to take them back under Russian control. Amazing how many right wingers somehow think that would be a very, very good idea.
They all saw tRump submit to Putin in Geneva so they are lining up to do the same.

You talk like a retarded baby.
You talk like someone who has never valued democracy in the slightest.

If you were serious about your point, you would not want to talk like a retarded baby while making it.


When you do that, you are admitting that your argument is not serious, that what you are really doing it throwing shit at the wall, like a retarded monkey, to see if anything sticks or to create teh illusion of credibility from repetition.


BECAUSE, on some level you know, that your position is complete bullshit.
My position is the one that beat Russia back behind their borders. Yours is the one that is "coincidentally" the same as Putin's.
Of course the big question is this.... The US being less involved overseas involves benefits A) Russia. B) The US. C) Both. I am guessing that blob supporters will state either B or C. They'll never it admit the it plays directly into Russia's hands. Can you imagine if the US had been like that after WWII.... No Berlin Airlift. No Marshall Plan.

Trump supporters really believe that the Russians would have just said, "Oh well, let's play chess and have some vodka" instead of trying to influence West Germany, Italy, France, etc... And, by influence, I mean both overt and covert strikes. See Czechoslovakia, See SE Asia. This is a country that poisons dissidents.

Well, you won't have to imagine it. Thanks to the blob, we've done it with China. Russia would be doing it too--expanding their influence--of course if they had the muscle. Now...why don't they have the muscle? Because we were involved overseas, their markets were not there because our influence was in the arena in Europe, Africa, the Middle East, the Americas. China is only going to grow richer as they replace IBM, Microsoft, General Motors, etc...

Maybe it was inevitable. I doubt it. But every empire falls eventually.

West Germany has not existed for decades. What the fuck are you even talking about?

Are you seriously pretending that nothing has changed since the Cold War ended, adn the Soviet Union fell, or are you just talking shit?
 
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candycorn

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West Germany has not existed for decades. What the fuck are you even talking about?

Are you seriously pretending that nothing has changed since the Cold War ended, adn the Soviet Union fell, or are you just talking shit?
Crack open a history book and see what happens when you contain Russia instead of emboldening it.

You contain them and they lose power and influence. Is it cheap? No. But it does lead to prosperity and expansion for your businesses.

Now, lets look at what happens when you have the blob in power. They influence our elections in 2016....we do nothing. So then around 2020 they come back for more. Weakness invites more attacks.

The Cold War is still going on. The battlefield is cyber to some degree. They are poisoning internal opposition. Soon they would have been poisoning foreign officials since there is no downside.

Are you pretending that a weakened NATO doesn't help Russia? Of course you are. Why because you're stupid.
 

Correll

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West Germany has not existed for decades. What the fuck are you even talking about?

Are you seriously pretending that nothing has changed since the Cold War ended, adn the Soviet Union fell, or are you just talking shit?
Crack open a history book and see what happens when you contain Russia instead of emboldening it.

You contain them and they lose power and influence. Is it cheap? No. But it does lead to prosperity and expansion for your businesses.

Now, lets look at what happens when you have the blob in power. They influence our elections in 2016....we do nothing. So then around 2020 they come back for more. Weakness invites more attacks.

The Cold War is still going on. The battlefield is cyber to some degree. They are poisoning internal opposition. Soon they would have been poisoning foreign officials since there is no downside.

Are you pretending that a weakened NATO doesn't help Russia? Of course you are. Why because you're stupid.


The Cold War was about containing the communist Soviet Union, which has thousands of tanks sitting in the middle of Germany and an attractive ideology that was exportable to the poor and ignorant in the West and the Third World.


The Soviet Union was a real threat, and I supported the policy that said that an invasion of West Germany would lead to WWIII.


We won that war. The Soviets fell. Their empire fell. Their tanks were pulled ALL the way back.


During that time, lefties like you, whined like faggots over the danger of standing up to the Soviets.


Today, Russia is a pale shadow of the threat that the Soviets were. Instead of thousands of tanks in teh middle of Europe they have a few hundred on the far side of the Ukraine.


Instead of communism, they have russian nationalism.


In the 50s, if the Soviets had taken West Germany, it could have lead to world domination.


IN the 2O2Os, if the Russians take Estonia, it means nothing to the balance of power.
 

Fort Fun Indiana

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Crack open a history book and see what happens when you contain Russia instead of emboldening it
And we don't need to just make an educated guess. Putin has pretty much expressed his desire to get the old gang back together. He doesn't make any secret of it.
 

Correll

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Crack open a history book and see what happens when you contain Russia instead of emboldening it
And we don't need to just make an educated guess. Putin has pretty much expressed his desire to get the old gang back together. He doesn't make any secret of it.

The Soviets taking West Germany was a threat to US.

The Russians taking Estonia, is not.
 

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