Trump files, jury sees classified files or Trump wins

[Delldude]

Because the court filings are public.

I don't believe His defense is required to publicly post their defense strategy.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

So anyway... Smith will give her a chance to walk back her bizarre instructions. Otherwise, back up to the appeals circuit he goes with yet another bizarre amd suspicious ruling from the unqualified judge.

 

[Marener]

I don't believe His defense is required to publicly post their defense strategy.

You said it was the claim. All I’m saying is that it hasn’t been claimed yet, so you can’t say that.

 

[WorldWatcher]

I don't believe His defense is required to publicly post their defense strategy.

Loading…

www.cga.ct.gov

Under the principal of reciprocal discovery the defense is required to provide to the prosecution:

• Witness lists
• Evidence Defense plans to enter into the court record for the jury,
• Notice of intent to raise an affirmative defense * * *
• Notice of alibi defense to be used

So ya, if the FPOTUS is going to claim that he declassified the documents prior to leaving office, therefore the classified documents claim is false since he declassified them. Then it would be incumbent on FPOTUS#45's team to make that known to the prosecution so they can prepare impeachment materials that such a claim is either (a) immaterial to the documents of the case, or (b) a false post hoc attempt after the commission of a crime to evade justice.


WW
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* * * If being charged with willful retention of classified documents, claiming that you declassified them prior to Noon, January 20, 2021 would be an affirmative defense.

 

[Delldude]

Under the principal of reciprocal discovery the defense is required to provide to the prosecution

Trump is being tried in Connecticut?

The issue is making Trump's defense strategy public......that isn't what discovery is all about.

 

[Seymour Flops]

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/67490070/united-states-v-trump/

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So far it's not. The link above is to all the court filings in the case. FPOTUS#45 (through his lawyers) has not made a claim before the court that he declassified the documents.

It can't be a "major component of the case" if the defense doesn't claim it as an affirmative defense. If they do, that is going to open up whole new avenues for the prosecution to impeach the claim. Dates, times, locations, context, verbal or written, witnesses documents, etc.

For the uninitiated, see below for why secret and mental declassification doesn't cut it.

WW
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See this is what people that don't understand what "classified" shows. Documents are not "declassified" it is the information in the document that is declassified. The document is a piece of paper, it is the information that is important.

For example let’s say that there are 6 copies of a specific document containing specific classified information. One located in the White House, 5 located amongst various agencies which also need the document. In addition there are subordinate documents that contain (either in part of in whole some of the same classified information).

Under a normal process when the information contained in a highly classified documents is declassified (or downgraded) that impacts all copies of the document (its information, and subordinate documents containing the same information in whole or portions of a subordinate document).

So If the FPOTUS "declassified" a document, he is really declassifying the information in that document. If the FPOTUS, while acting as POTUS, "declassified" the information without telling anyone (either directly or in writing) for that specific document, you end up with:

• One copy of the information located at the White House (or one of his Country Clubs) being "declassified", and
• Five copies of the information located at the responsible agencies still being classified as the responsible agencies will not know the information was declassified because the FPOTUS (while POTUS) just mentally declassified the information in his head.

The result is someone could be prosecuted for improper handling of classified material for actions related to the 5 responsible agency documents, but not for improper handling of the exact same document if the source of the document was the White House. But they contain the same information! By this we are talking about the information in the document and subordinate information which sourced the document which can have even wider reaching impacts.

The national security infrastructure cannot function in a reasonable way if the same information is both classified and declassified at the same time simply because the POTUS chooses not to tell anyone.

Kind of a Schrodinger's Classified document where the same information is both classified and declassified at the same time until someone asks the FPOTUS to find out if he mentally and secretly declassified it without telling anyone while still POTUS. Normal people wouldn't know just by looking at the document.

If the POTUS decides to declassify only one copy of a classified document, he has that power. Because the executive has all the power over classified material. That's what the USSC ruled. The executived power of the United States is vested in the president, any powers held by subordinates comes form his delegation of some of that power.

If congress passed a law describing the procedure for declassifying documents or information and the president signed it, that would change. But that hasn't happened yet, except when it comes to certain nuclear weapons information.

That's why the FBI, as part of their "get Trump" leaks, told the media that Trump had "information about nuclear capabilities." If he did, likely they were open source like magazine articles, which would indeed be "information about nuclear capabilities.

In court that won't fly. Not unless the prosecution succeeds in their plan to prosecute Trump without showing the jury the evidence.

 

[WorldWatcher]

If the POTUS decides to declassify only one copy of a classified document, he has that power.

I'll stop you right there. No he doesn't.

For the uninitiated. It's NOT the piece of paper that is classified, it's the information printed on the paper.

Declassifying the information means that it is declassified for all copies, which is why the whole "secret and mental" declassification without telling anyone will never fly in a court of law for reasonable people.

WW

 

[Seymour Flops]

I'll stop you right there. No he doesn't.

According to the USSC, he does.

For the uninitiated. It's NOT the piece of paper that is classified, it's the information printed on the paper.

Declassifying the information means that it is declassified for all copies, which is why the whole "secret and mental" declassification without telling anyone will never fly in a court of law for reasonable people.

WW

The president - not WorldWatcher - decides what is and is not classified. According to the USSC. Do you have a higher authority to cite?

Those rules you want to set have no application to the president.

 

[WorldWatcher]

According to the USSC, he does.

No they didn’t, assuming you are referring to the Judicial Watch case attempting to get audio tapes Clinton made with his historian.

The president - not WorldWatcher - decides what is and is not classified. According to the USSC. Do you have a higher authority to cite?

Trump isn’t President.

He’s free to make free to make the claim in court, and I wish he would. As an affirmative defense it will be his responsibility to cite the dates, times, locations, conditions, context, who he notified, was it in person or was it in writing.

Yes, please make the claim in court.

Those rules you want to set have no application to the president.

Sure they do, it only takes a basic understanding of what "classified" means.

WW

 

[Seymour Flops]

No they didn’t, assuming you are referring to the Judicial Watch case attempting to get audio tapes Clinton made with his historian.

No, not at all. I refer to

Department of the Navy v. Egan, in which Justice Blackmun, writing for the majority stated:

The President, after all, is the "Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States." U.S.Const., Art. II, § 2. His authority to classify and control access to information bearing on national security and to determine whether an individual is sufficiently trustworthy to occupy a position in the Executive Branch that will give that person access to such information flows primarily from this constitutional investment of power in the President, and exists quite apart from any explicit congressional grant. See Cafeteria Workers v. McElroy, 367 U. S. 886, 367 U. S. 890 (1961). This Court has recognized the Government's "compelling interest" in withholding national security information from unauthorized persons in the course of executive business. Snepp v. United States, 444 U. S. 507, 444 U. S. 509, n. 3 (1980). See also United States v. Robel, 389 U. S. 258, 389 U. S. 267 (1967); United States v. Reynolds, 345 U. S. 1, 345 U. S. 10 (1953); Totten v. United States, 92 U. S. 105, 92 U. S. 106 (1876). The authority to protect such information falls on the President as head of the Executive Branch and as Commander in Chief.

Trump isn’t President.

He was when the documents in question left the White House.

He’s free to make free to make the claim in court, and I wish he would. As an affirmative defense it will be his responsibility to cite the dates, times, locations, conditions, context, who he notified, was it in person or was it in writing.

Yes, please make the claim in court.

No, sir.

There is no part of the US Constitution that states the manner in which a president must classify, de-classify, or re-classify information bearing on national security.

Sure they do, it only takes a basic understanding of what "classified" means.

WW

What you mean is "sure they should," and I understand why you think that. We are so used to our government telling us that the secrets they keep from us are none of our business, and certainly cannot be shared with our elected representatives, it's easy for us to believe the myth that classified information has some magical quality that makes it classified and that ordinary mortals cannot be given access to it, even if the president wants them to see it.

Not true. Information is classified because the president exercised his power to classify it, or someone to whom the president delegated some of his power classifies it. The president can classify or de-classify it at will, and has no requirement to follow any particular procedure, in doing so. If you think he does, post that procedure for presidential de-classification with a link to the source of this requirement.

Presidents do not have a set procedure for exercising their authority over classification. Not unless you can show me something that over-rides the U.S. Constitution, and the USSC's intperpretation of the U.S. Constitution.

 

[Care4all]

Sandy Berger, who was caught stuffing classified doc's in his socks and pants, to erase some of the stuff Bill did, for one.

Berger took 1 classified document, and 4 copies of the 1 document. Plead guilty. Also lost his law license/his livelihood possibilities....a $50,000 fine...100 hours of community service....2 years of probation etc....

 

[Delldude]

Berger took 1 classified document, and 4 copies of the 1 document. Plead guilty. Also lost his law license/his livelihood possibilities....a $50,000 fine...100 hours of community service....2 years of probation etc....

Berger wasn't authorized to do what he did.....Trump was. So Berger should set the precedent if their are any possible penalties for Trump then.

 

[Care4all]

Berger wasn't authorized to do what he did.....Trump was. So Berger should set the precedent if their are any possible penalties for Trump then.

Trump WAS NOT AUTHORIZED to do, nor for the enormity of what he did! That's the whole point of this trial, and the obstruction charges!

 

[Delldude]

Trump WAS NOT AUTHORIZED to do, nor for the enormity of what he did! That's the whole point of this trial, and the obstruction charges!

The hell He wasn't.....

 

[rampart]

What if the classified files contain old issues of Mad magazine?

then "spy vs spy" is a documentary?

if you are cheering the theft, and release, of the classified documents you are as treasonous as trump is.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

The hell He wasn't.....

Wrong, of course. The law is clear. That's why team trump is arguing for blanket immunity. This is also why Cannons insteuctions are so bizarre. They have no other defense.

 

[Delldude]

if you are cheering the theft, and release, of the classified documents you are as treasonous as trump is.

No one stole classified documents other than Biden. Trump had all the authority needed to declassify and remove documents. Biden didn't.

That's why team trump is arguing for blanket immunity.

The argument is 'performing presidential duties'. And there hasn't been a SCOTUS ruling regarding presidential immunity in that regard.

 

[WorldWatcher]

Trump had all the authority needed to declassify and remove documents.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/67490070/united-states-v-trump/

FPOTUS#45 has made no claim in any court documents that I know of where he as claimed to have declassified the documents prior to Noon, January 20, 2021.

As a matter of fact his actions indicate he didn't.

But it would be great if he did, because then the prosecution can impeach the claim.

WW

 

[Delldude]

FPOTUS#45 has made no claim in any court documents that I know of where he as claimed to have declassified the documents prior to Noon, January 20, 2021.

He's made public statements quite few times. I seriously doubt His defense would toss anything into the public arena regarding their defensive strategies.

 

[WorldWatcher]

He's made public statements quite few times. I seriously doubt His defense would toss anything into the public arena regarding their defensive strategies.

I know he's made "pubic statements". That is very different than making the claim in court.

What you seriously doubt isn't the question. Under reciprocal discover the defense is going to be required to turn over their witness lists and any documents they plan on entering as evidence.

If FPOTUS#45 tries to make the claim, then he can be impeached. For each and every classified document he can on:

• If the documents where declassified prior to Noon, January 20, 2021 did FPOTUS#45 continue to treat the documents as classified after that date.
• What was declassified?
• Who was present and was directed to process the declassification?
• Are there an documents supporting the declassification?
• Are there any contemporaneous notes from those in attendance supporting the claim of declassification?

Yes please, file a motion with the court that he secretly/mentally declassified to documents. Please.

WW