Trickle-Up Recession: The 1% Getting Real About the Permanent Fix for the Economy

[Andylusion]

Very recently banks have announced they're loaning up to 120% of the value of a new car.

Link?

Gone are the days of the 3 and 4 year car loan for a large percentage of Americans.
With soaring prices on vehicles and dwindling income people are signing 6 and 7 year loans.
Thats fucken nuts!! You're pretty much guaranteed to end up backasswards on the loan.
This is a symptom of what the OP is talking about,and it's only going to get worse.

I have huge problem with this logic.

The whole reason prices have gone up, is because of buyers. Buyers demand cars that are more expensive than they can afford. If no one bought a car they couldn't pay cash for, the prices of cars would go down. But that would require you buy a less expensive car. People don't want to do that. So this crying over buying cars you can't afford, for loans you can't pay back, is not the car companies fault. It's the public's fault. Stop buying cars you can't afford.

And of course you are going to end up backwards on the loan. Any loan made on a product that goes down in value, you are going to end up upside down on. If you buy a couch with a credit card, you are upside down on the couch before you get it to your home.

Any time you borrow money on something that loses value, it is mathematically impossible to end up upside down on it, unless you place a ton of money down.

You used to be able to buy a nice truck for 25k 15 years ago.
Now that same truck would run you around 40k yet wages are still the same...thats a problem.

That's a bit nebulous.

Define exactly what you consider a "nice truck for $25K".... because....

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...rchRadius=25&showcaseListingId=411949367&mmt=[CHEV[COLORADO[]][]]&listingId=409699020&Log=0

Chevy Colorado Extended Cab, for $23,000 new. I've been in one of those. That fits my definition of "nice".

Now most people want the 300 HP V-6, with the premium stereo blue tooth, Z71 option, with 4x4 and fog lights and bell and whistles, and yeah that costs significantly more.

But to just get a decent truck.... For $25K.... yeah you can do that. People choose not to. People choose to buy all the bells and whistles.... but that doesn't mean "you can't buy a nice truck for $25K".

In 98 I purchased a Toyota Tacoma 4X4 TRD with blower and all the bell and whistles for 25k
That truck today without the blower,which is around an extra 5k,will run you over 37k.
Add the blower,which unfortunately is no longer available,and the price jumps to 42k.

Wages sure as hell havent kept up with the rise in the price of the truck.

Um.... but those are not the same truck. Same name..... but it's not the same truck. It's not even classified by the government as being in the same class.

Toyota Tacoma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Class
Compact pickup truck (first gen)
Mid-size pickup truck (second and third gen)

The first generation is a "compact" class truck. From 1995 to 2004, these were small trucks. I know the exact model your talking about.

From 2005 to present, they are the Second and Third generation, which are classified as "mid-size".... and they are. If you go and look at them, they are clearly and obviously much larger than the first generation truck you purchased.

Not only that, but they have far more bells and whistles than your first generation 1998 Tacoma ever did. That's costs more money.

Now beyond that, do you know what the CAFE standards are? Corporate Average Fuel Economy. The federal government averages out the fuel economy of all the cars sold by the entire corporations, and then charges them a penalty for the cost over an arbitrary number.

What this means is that the company has to pay a huge sum of money for cars that have low gas mileage.... which of course is cars with more powerful engines. That cost is passed on to YOU the consumer. The result is that vehicles with powerful engines end up having their price jacked up. I can almost guarantee you that's why your blower option is gone. And why high performance Tacoma is more expensive.

So not only is it a bigger truck, not only is it a more advanced truck, but the government piled cost on the truck.

So yeah, not all that surprised that the price is much higher.

 

[Andylusion]

Of course,I personally watched it happen in machine shops.
Mexicans went from about two percent of machinist in 85 to around eighty percent in 2000.
And wages stagnated. Thank God I saw the writing on the wall and made my money elsewhere.

That is absolutely factually true. Mexicans are the new black slaves. They are willing to work for a fraction of what it costs to maintain a middle class lifestyle because back home, petty wages are sufficient to afford middle class living. And, employers don't have to provide medical insurance for illegals. Double bonus. The only problem is how to provide the horde of legal Americans with enough income to keep the American economy afloat.

Most youngsters I know complain of not wanting to go to college because after they strip what little their families have in savings to get a degree, there are only slave wages and seas of endless Mexicans to compete with. And, employers aren't hiring. So they're stuck with debt and a degree on their wall in a cheap plastic and glass frame. A very expensive trinket.

Also, with monopolies firmly entrenched from lobbying favors and regulations, if you try to enter a given market with your new innovative ideas, you will be tortured first, then squashed like a bug on a desert highway before you even make your first dollar of profit. So why innovate?

For instance, I myself have had dozens of really good ideas to innovate cutting edge new American industry. But instead of having time and money to invest in my ideas, I'm struggling month to month to keep from losing the roof over my head. So I'm forced to take odd jobs that require long hours and petty wages, poor returns. And why? Because the people who hire me know I'm in a pinch. And reptiles know that people in a pinch will work for long hours at shitty wages. Thus, the worst sort of people rise to the top...stupid, petty, meanspirited, without innovative ideas because all their brains are capable of processing is selfish greed. And innovative types like myself are shut clean out of the marketplace by our reptilian counterparts.

And, smart people know when they've been beat before they've even left the chute. So, good ideas and American innovation flush down the commode with each manhour spent at a shitty job working long hours for shitty wages because more cunning and ruthless greed-whores know how to keep good men down..

And who is it who enables this not only to survive, but to flourish?

Money is the barometer of a society's virtue. When you see that trading is done, not by consent, but by compulsion--when you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing--when you see that money is flowing to those who deal, not in goods, but in favors--when you see that men get richer by graft and by pull than by work, and your laws don't protect you against them, but protect them against you--when you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice--you may know that your society is doomed.

- Ayn Rand - Atlas Shrugged -​

Most of the book is a pretty difficult read, but the story of the 20th Century Motor Co, and D'anconia's Money Speech are brilliant.

I loved it. Hated the whore as the main character, and the personal morals were crap..... But beyond that, brilliant book. Loved it. I was thinking about reading it again.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Gone are the days of the 3 and 4 year car loan for a large percentage of Americans.
With soaring prices on vehicles and dwindling income people are signing 6 and 7 year loans.
Thats fucken nuts!! You're pretty much guaranteed to end up backasswards on the loan.
This is a symptom of what the OP is talking about,and it's only going to get worse.

I have huge problem with this logic.

The whole reason prices have gone up, is because of buyers. Buyers demand cars that are more expensive than they can afford. If no one bought a car they couldn't pay cash for, the prices of cars would go down. But that would require you buy a less expensive car. People don't want to do that. So this crying over buying cars you can't afford, for loans you can't pay back, is not the car companies fault. It's the public's fault. Stop buying cars you can't afford.

And of course you are going to end up backwards on the loan. Any loan made on a product that goes down in value, you are going to end up upside down on. If you buy a couch with a credit card, you are upside down on the couch before you get it to your home.

Any time you borrow money on something that loses value, it is mathematically impossible to end up upside down on it, unless you place a ton of money down.

You used to be able to buy a nice truck for 25k 15 years ago.
Now that same truck would run you around 40k yet wages are still the same...thats a problem.

That's a bit nebulous.

Define exactly what you consider a "nice truck for $25K".... because....

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...rchRadius=25&showcaseListingId=411949367&mmt=[CHEV[COLORADO[]][]]&listingId=409699020&Log=0

Chevy Colorado Extended Cab, for $23,000 new. I've been in one of those. That fits my definition of "nice".

Now most people want the 300 HP V-6, with the premium stereo blue tooth, Z71 option, with 4x4 and fog lights and bell and whistles, and yeah that costs significantly more.

But to just get a decent truck.... For $25K.... yeah you can do that. People choose not to. People choose to buy all the bells and whistles.... but that doesn't mean "you can't buy a nice truck for $25K".

In 98 I purchased a Toyota Tacoma 4X4 TRD with blower and all the bell and whistles for 25k
That truck today without the blower,which is around an extra 5k,will run you over 37k.
Add the blower,which unfortunately is no longer available,and the price jumps to 42k.

Wages sure as hell havent kept up with the rise in the price of the truck.

Um.... but those are not the same truck. Same name..... but it's not the same truck. It's not even classified by the government as being in the same class.

Toyota Tacoma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Class
Compact pickup truck (first gen)
Mid-size pickup truck (second and third gen)

The first generation is a "compact" class truck. From 1995 to 2004, these were small trucks. I know the exact model your talking about.

From 2005 to present, they are the Second and Third generation, which are classified as "mid-size".... and they are. If you go and look at them, they are clearly and obviously much larger than the first generation truck you purchased.

Not only that, but they have far more bells and whistles than your first generation 1998 Tacoma ever did. That's costs more money.

Now beyond that, do you know what the CAFE standards are? Corporate Average Fuel Economy. The federal government averages out the fuel economy of all the cars sold by the entire corporations, and then charges them a penalty for the cost over an arbitrary number.

What this means is that the company has to pay a huge sum of money for cars that have low gas mileage.... which of course is cars with more powerful engines. That cost is passed on to YOU the consumer. The result is that vehicles with powerful engines end up having their price jacked up. I can almost guarantee you that's why your blower option is gone. And why high performance Tacoma is more expensive.

So not only is it a bigger truck, not only is it a more advanced truck, but the government piled cost on the truck.

So yeah, not all that surprised that the price is much higher.

Oh I'll give you they've improved with crawl control,traction control and air bags and the like,but the fact is the same guy today working the same job I did in 98 couldnt afford to purchase a truck with the same capabilities offroad as the 98.

 

[Andylusion]

I have huge problem with this logic.

The whole reason prices have gone up, is because of buyers. Buyers demand cars that are more expensive than they can afford. If no one bought a car they couldn't pay cash for, the prices of cars would go down. But that would require you buy a less expensive car. People don't want to do that. So this crying over buying cars you can't afford, for loans you can't pay back, is not the car companies fault. It's the public's fault. Stop buying cars you can't afford.

And of course you are going to end up backwards on the loan. Any loan made on a product that goes down in value, you are going to end up upside down on. If you buy a couch with a credit card, you are upside down on the couch before you get it to your home.

Any time you borrow money on something that loses value, it is mathematically impossible to end up upside down on it, unless you place a ton of money down.

You used to be able to buy a nice truck for 25k 15 years ago.
Now that same truck would run you around 40k yet wages are still the same...thats a problem.

That's a bit nebulous.

Define exactly what you consider a "nice truck for $25K".... because....

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...rchRadius=25&showcaseListingId=411949367&mmt=[CHEV[COLORADO[]][]]&listingId=409699020&Log=0

Chevy Colorado Extended Cab, for $23,000 new. I've been in one of those. That fits my definition of "nice".

Now most people want the 300 HP V-6, with the premium stereo blue tooth, Z71 option, with 4x4 and fog lights and bell and whistles, and yeah that costs significantly more.

But to just get a decent truck.... For $25K.... yeah you can do that. People choose not to. People choose to buy all the bells and whistles.... but that doesn't mean "you can't buy a nice truck for $25K".

In 98 I purchased a Toyota Tacoma 4X4 TRD with blower and all the bell and whistles for 25k
That truck today without the blower,which is around an extra 5k,will run you over 37k.
Add the blower,which unfortunately is no longer available,and the price jumps to 42k.

Wages sure as hell havent kept up with the rise in the price of the truck.

Um.... but those are not the same truck. Same name..... but it's not the same truck. It's not even classified by the government as being in the same class.

Toyota Tacoma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Class
Compact pickup truck (first gen)
Mid-size pickup truck (second and third gen)

The first generation is a "compact" class truck. From 1995 to 2004, these were small trucks. I know the exact model your talking about.

From 2005 to present, they are the Second and Third generation, which are classified as "mid-size".... and they are. If you go and look at them, they are clearly and obviously much larger than the first generation truck you purchased.

Not only that, but they have far more bells and whistles than your first generation 1998 Tacoma ever did. That's costs more money.

Now beyond that, do you know what the CAFE standards are? Corporate Average Fuel Economy. The federal government averages out the fuel economy of all the cars sold by the entire corporations, and then charges them a penalty for the cost over an arbitrary number.

What this means is that the company has to pay a huge sum of money for cars that have low gas mileage.... which of course is cars with more powerful engines. That cost is passed on to YOU the consumer. The result is that vehicles with powerful engines end up having their price jacked up. I can almost guarantee you that's why your blower option is gone. And why high performance Tacoma is more expensive.

So not only is it a bigger truck, not only is it a more advanced truck, but the government piled cost on the truck.

So yeah, not all that surprised that the price is much higher.

Oh I'll give you they've improved with crawl control,traction control and air bags and the like,but the fact is the same guy today working the same job I did in 98 couldnt afford to purchase a truck with the same capabilities offroad as the 98.

I would actually agree with that. Simply because it was a niche machine. The Tacoma TRD with all the off-road crap, was the only one of it's class. It was a compact truck, but yet had a powerful engine, and off-road setup.

So in that sense you were right. But it's not because prices went up.... it's because it was the only one like it. All the other off-road trucks were... and are... full/mid-size trucks, with a full/mid-size price. F-150 Raptor, Silverado Z71 are both larger trucks. Thus have larger prices.

About the closest thing you can find, would be like a RAM 1500 Rebel. Even so, it would be low-$30K.

But again, the price isn't what changed. The class of truck you bought no longer exists. If they built a small-truck with off-road capabilities, it would have a similar price.

And again, the question is why did they make the Tacoma into a larger truck, with a larger price? Because that's what people wanted.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

You used to be able to buy a nice truck for 25k 15 years ago.
Now that same truck would run you around 40k yet wages are still the same...thats a problem.

That's a bit nebulous.

Define exactly what you consider a "nice truck for $25K".... because....

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...rchRadius=25&showcaseListingId=411949367&mmt=[CHEV[COLORADO[]][]]&listingId=409699020&Log=0

Chevy Colorado Extended Cab, for $23,000 new. I've been in one of those. That fits my definition of "nice".

Now most people want the 300 HP V-6, with the premium stereo blue tooth, Z71 option, with 4x4 and fog lights and bell and whistles, and yeah that costs significantly more.

But to just get a decent truck.... For $25K.... yeah you can do that. People choose not to. People choose to buy all the bells and whistles.... but that doesn't mean "you can't buy a nice truck for $25K".

In 98 I purchased a Toyota Tacoma 4X4 TRD with blower and all the bell and whistles for 25k
That truck today without the blower,which is around an extra 5k,will run you over 37k.
Add the blower,which unfortunately is no longer available,and the price jumps to 42k.

Wages sure as hell havent kept up with the rise in the price of the truck.

Um.... but those are not the same truck. Same name..... but it's not the same truck. It's not even classified by the government as being in the same class.

Toyota Tacoma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Class
Compact pickup truck (first gen)
Mid-size pickup truck (second and third gen)

The first generation is a "compact" class truck. From 1995 to 2004, these were small trucks. I know the exact model your talking about.

From 2005 to present, they are the Second and Third generation, which are classified as "mid-size".... and they are. If you go and look at them, they are clearly and obviously much larger than the first generation truck you purchased.

Not only that, but they have far more bells and whistles than your first generation 1998 Tacoma ever did. That's costs more money.

Now beyond that, do you know what the CAFE standards are? Corporate Average Fuel Economy. The federal government averages out the fuel economy of all the cars sold by the entire corporations, and then charges them a penalty for the cost over an arbitrary number.

What this means is that the company has to pay a huge sum of money for cars that have low gas mileage.... which of course is cars with more powerful engines. That cost is passed on to YOU the consumer. The result is that vehicles with powerful engines end up having their price jacked up. I can almost guarantee you that's why your blower option is gone. And why high performance Tacoma is more expensive.

So not only is it a bigger truck, not only is it a more advanced truck, but the government piled cost on the truck.

So yeah, not all that surprised that the price is much higher.

Oh I'll give you they've improved with crawl control,traction control and air bags and the like,but the fact is the same guy today working the same job I did in 98 couldnt afford to purchase a truck with the same capabilities offroad as the 98.

I would actually agree with that. Simply because it was a niche machine. The Tacoma TRD with all the off-road crap, was the only one of it's class. It was a compact truck, but yet had a powerful engine, and off-road setup.

So in that sense you were right. But it's not because prices went up.... it's because it was the only one like it. All the other off-road trucks were... and are... full/mid-size trucks, with a full/mid-size price. F-150 Raptor, Silverado Z71 are both larger trucks. Thus have larger prices.

About the closest thing you can find, would be like a RAM 1500 Rebel. Even so, it would be low-$30K.

But again, the price isn't what changed. The class of truck you bought no longer exists. If they built a small-truck with off-road capabilities, it would have a similar price.

And again, the question is why did they make the Tacoma into a larger truck, with a larger price? Because that's what people wanted.

As to why they changed it I will agree with the customer rules thought train.
It's the same reason they went to IFS over the solid axle...to the consternation of offroaders everywhere.
It pisses me off you can buy a Hilux diesel solid axle 4X4 overseas and it's unavailable in the U.S.
You really have to lay some blame on the auto industry itself for inventing shit to add to vehicles that really isnt necessary,and they add em to a package to force you into buying them.

 

[Andylusion]

That's a bit nebulous.

Define exactly what you consider a "nice truck for $25K".... because....

http://www.autotrader.com/cars-for-...rchRadius=25&showcaseListingId=411949367&mmt=[CHEV[COLORADO[]][]]&listingId=409699020&Log=0

Chevy Colorado Extended Cab, for $23,000 new. I've been in one of those. That fits my definition of "nice".

Now most people want the 300 HP V-6, with the premium stereo blue tooth, Z71 option, with 4x4 and fog lights and bell and whistles, and yeah that costs significantly more.

But to just get a decent truck.... For $25K.... yeah you can do that. People choose not to. People choose to buy all the bells and whistles.... but that doesn't mean "you can't buy a nice truck for $25K".

In 98 I purchased a Toyota Tacoma 4X4 TRD with blower and all the bell and whistles for 25k
That truck today without the blower,which is around an extra 5k,will run you over 37k.
Add the blower,which unfortunately is no longer available,and the price jumps to 42k.

Wages sure as hell havent kept up with the rise in the price of the truck.

Um.... but those are not the same truck. Same name..... but it's not the same truck. It's not even classified by the government as being in the same class.

Toyota Tacoma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Class
Compact pickup truck (first gen)
Mid-size pickup truck (second and third gen)

The first generation is a "compact" class truck. From 1995 to 2004, these were small trucks. I know the exact model your talking about.

From 2005 to present, they are the Second and Third generation, which are classified as "mid-size".... and they are. If you go and look at them, they are clearly and obviously much larger than the first generation truck you purchased.

Not only that, but they have far more bells and whistles than your first generation 1998 Tacoma ever did. That's costs more money.

Now beyond that, do you know what the CAFE standards are? Corporate Average Fuel Economy. The federal government averages out the fuel economy of all the cars sold by the entire corporations, and then charges them a penalty for the cost over an arbitrary number.

What this means is that the company has to pay a huge sum of money for cars that have low gas mileage.... which of course is cars with more powerful engines. That cost is passed on to YOU the consumer. The result is that vehicles with powerful engines end up having their price jacked up. I can almost guarantee you that's why your blower option is gone. And why high performance Tacoma is more expensive.

So not only is it a bigger truck, not only is it a more advanced truck, but the government piled cost on the truck.

So yeah, not all that surprised that the price is much higher.

Oh I'll give you they've improved with crawl control,traction control and air bags and the like,but the fact is the same guy today working the same job I did in 98 couldnt afford to purchase a truck with the same capabilities offroad as the 98.

I would actually agree with that. Simply because it was a niche machine. The Tacoma TRD with all the off-road crap, was the only one of it's class. It was a compact truck, but yet had a powerful engine, and off-road setup.

So in that sense you were right. But it's not because prices went up.... it's because it was the only one like it. All the other off-road trucks were... and are... full/mid-size trucks, with a full/mid-size price. F-150 Raptor, Silverado Z71 are both larger trucks. Thus have larger prices.

About the closest thing you can find, would be like a RAM 1500 Rebel. Even so, it would be low-$30K.

But again, the price isn't what changed. The class of truck you bought no longer exists. If they built a small-truck with off-road capabilities, it would have a similar price.

And again, the question is why did they make the Tacoma into a larger truck, with a larger price? Because that's what people wanted.

As to why they changed it I will agree with the customer rules thought train.
It's the same reason they went to IFS over the solid axle...to the consternation of offroaders everywhere.
It pisses me off you can buy a Hilux diesel solid axle 4X4 overseas and it's unavailable in the U.S.
You really have to lay some blame on the auto industry itself for inventing shit to add to vehicles that really isnt necessary,and they add em to a package to force you into buying them.

Yeah.... but again I would suggest that is because it's what consumers want.

Just because *you* think it really isn't necessary, doesn't mean customers don't want it.

Most do. The lack of Diesel options, is due to government regulations and controls. As much as the left likes to claim Europe is so progressive and more socialized, it's not entirely true. Diesel has been preferred over gasoline for decades, due to the obvious advantages of stronger engines, and better gas mileage. But this has been allowed by lower regulations on emissions that make Diesel practical.

Recent moves in our government have slightly reduced regulations on Diesel, which is why more Diesel cars are coming to the market in the US.

Moreover, the EU is proposing regulations on Diesel that, although not implemented yet, is spurring EU automakers to introduce gasoline cars.

As for the solid axle and packages, that's again caused by customers. I guarantee it. I've see this myself in my own industry.

The product was an industrial printer, and we had a RFID package. The package was a different slide rails, and an RFID card.
The reason was that the sliders contained carbon, that interfered with the RFID. The replacement rails did not.

Of course they were packaged together. Well one of the of customers wanted the rails, but not the RFID.

So we quoted them a price of about $190, when the entire kit is $200. (these are rough numbers, I don't have the exact prices in front of me) Of course the customer had a similar reaction to what you just gave. Obviously we were screwing them over, and the rails are cheap plastic, while the RFID was high tech, so we were just trying to rip them off.

Here was the reality: The kit is manufactured by a company in another country. To get them to send us replacement rails, requires us to buy a minimum lot size. They don't ship 'ones and twos'. We would then have to pay the full cost of shipping for a hundred rails. None of which we are likely to sell since no other customer requested just rails.

Since we are not going to spend $1000, to sell one pair of rails for $5, we would have to open a kit on the shelf, which means we can't sell that kit. The RFID chip alone is useless without the replacement rails.

Moreover, the half the cost is labor. In order to install the rails, requires a complete disassembly of the entire printer. So the labor cost of installing one item, is exactly the same, as installing both.

Thus, the cost to us the company, to install just rails, was exactly the same as installing the entire kit.

And I've actually seen this before, but I will spare you another long story.

My point is this.... I can almost guarantee you that something similar is true regarding your solid axle in a kit.

If there was a huge demand for just the solid axle alone, with nothing else.... then they would sell just axles.

If our company had customers calling day and night looking for just the rails, we would buy shipments of just rails, and have just rails available for a lower price.

I wager that most of the people who want solid axles, also wanted the other stuff in the kit. Which is why it's in a kit.

I get it that you want to blame the companies, but the facts are if everyone was saying the same thing you are, they'd have them available. I guarantee it.

 

[Silhouette]

As to why they changed it I will agree with the customer rules thought train.
It's the same reason they went to IFS over the solid axle...to the consternation of offroaders everywhere.
It pisses me off you can buy a Hilux diesel solid axle 4X4 overseas and it's unavailable in the U.S.
You really have to lay some blame on the auto industry itself for inventing shit to add to vehicles that really isnt necessary,and they add em to a package to force you into buying them.

Yes, and don't you love how they introduced particulate platinum in the tail pipe (catalytic converter) to more completely burn fuel instead of before the power stroke? Why? You'll need to buy more fuel to push the car forward if its excess is burned in the tail pipe and not where the pistons move the camshaft.. Those engineers deep in bed with the oil industry knew exactly what they were doing designing it that way. And a lovely bonus for them was the drag created on the motor (burning even more fuel to not push the car forward) with the belts/drives on the smog pump.

 

[Silhouette]

Oh I'll give you they've improved with crawl control,traction control and air bags and the like,but the fact is the same guy today working the same job I did in 98 couldnt afford to purchase a truck with the same capabilities offroad as the 98.

But if Ford hired that guy and 10 of his buddies to replace just one of their robots on the assembly line, then yeah, he could afford to buy a new Ford truck.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Oh I'll give you they've improved with crawl control,traction control and air bags and the like,but the fact is the same guy today working the same job I did in 98 couldnt afford to purchase a truck with the same capabilities offroad as the 98.

But if Ford hired that guy and 10 of his buddies to replace just one of their robots on the assembly line, then yeah, he could afford to buy a new Ford truck.

Not knowing the cost of the robot and it's annual upkeep compared to the cost of hiring ten people I cant say if your statement is true or not.

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Oh I'll give you they've improved with crawl control,traction control and air bags and the like,but the fact is the same guy today working the same job I did in 98 couldnt afford to purchase a truck with the same capabilities offroad as the 98.

But if Ford hired that guy and 10 of his buddies to replace just one of their robots on the assembly line, then yeah, he could afford to buy a new Ford truck.

Sure but getting the auto industry to play along is going to be kinda tough.

 

[Silhouette]

Oh I'll give you they've improved with crawl control,traction control and air bags and the like,but the fact is the same guy today working the same job I did in 98 couldnt afford to purchase a truck with the same capabilities offroad as the 98.

But if Ford hired that guy and 10 of his buddies to replace just one of their robots on the assembly line, then yeah, he could afford to buy a new Ford truck.

Sure but getting the auto industry to play along is going to be kinda tough.

Since when does something being tough prohibit the effort to overcome it?

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

Oh I'll give you they've improved with crawl control,traction control and air bags and the like,but the fact is the same guy today working the same job I did in 98 couldnt afford to purchase a truck with the same capabilities offroad as the 98.

But if Ford hired that guy and 10 of his buddies to replace just one of their robots on the assembly line, then yeah, he could afford to buy a new Ford truck.

Sure but getting the auto industry to play along is going to be kinda tough.

Since when does something being tough prohibit the effort to overcome it?

If ya managed to pull it off unions would be forever grateful...

 

[LordBrownTrout]

it doesn't make a damn what the economy has done during a Democrats 2 terms in office .. the whining RW's see it entirely different, facts be damned.

Obama lied, branded deep in the heart and soul of simpletons ... that's what really matters.

The 1% crosses both parties. Leave partisan politics out of it.

can't sorry. The Dem Party isn't the Party spreading totally negative BS about the economy and job growth.

Right now they are. Our economy never fully recovered. QE FED pumped another 3 trillion into the corpse and its about to explode....exponentially worse that 2008.

 

[Silhouette]

If ya managed to pull it off unions would be forever grateful...

Well unions are obsolete if there are no jobs and fierce competition with foreign workers for the lowest pay possible. Don't have much leverage for any type of union under those conditions. I'm talking about emergency measures to simply stop the American economic hemorrhaging. Get the jobs here, convince the 1% that's in their interest (people can't buy stuff without income), then worry about unions if you have to. We have a serious unemployment/entitlement problem.. We have now two or three generations having grown up with no hope and just settling down to live off the dole. And they're not the ones to blame. The problem was created by those who withdrew their hope of the old American adage that if you get a good education and work hard, it will matter. When people see all that colossal effort and debt not mattering, they get apathetic in an endemic way, really fast..

...will we raise a 3rd or 4th generation to live off the dole? Or will we create conditions where they feel like if they do work hard it will matter? My experience with folks is that they like to work. It gives them a sense of accomplishment. It gets the blood moving. They feel better mentally and physically. It gives them a social exposure on a daily basis...also good for the soul. And, they get to bring home money to pay their own bills. Win win win... Why can't we see this is the root of the issue?

 

[HereWeGoAgain]

If ya managed to pull it off unions would be forever grateful...

Well unions are obsolete if there are no jobs and fierce competition with foreign workers for the lowest pay possible. Don't have much leverage for any type of union under those conditions. I'm talking about emergency measures to simply stop the American economic hemorrhaging. Get the jobs here, convince the 1% that's in their interest (people can't buy stuff without income), then worry about unions if you have to. We have a serious unemployment/entitlement problem..

Oh I agree,first thing we need to do is stop importing cheap labor and see where that gets us.

 

[Silhouette]

Oh I agree,first thing we need to do is stop importing cheap labor and see where that gets us.

Agreed...importing and exporting to cheap labor has to stop or the 1% will also be doomed...and from the looks of the weird and waffling stock market, sooner rather than later...

 

[Andylusion]

As to why they changed it I will agree with the customer rules thought train.
It's the same reason they went to IFS over the solid axle...to the consternation of offroaders everywhere.
It pisses me off you can buy a Hilux diesel solid axle 4X4 overseas and it's unavailable in the U.S.
You really have to lay some blame on the auto industry itself for inventing shit to add to vehicles that really isnt necessary,and they add em to a package to force you into buying them.

Yes, and don't you love how they introduced particulate platinum in the tail pipe (catalytic converter) to more completely burn fuel instead of before the power stroke? Why? You'll need to buy more fuel to push the car forward if its excess is burned in the tail pipe and not where the pistons move the camshaft.. Those engineers deep in bed with the oil industry knew exactly what they were doing designing it that way. And a lovely bonus for them was the drag created on the motor (burning even more fuel to not push the car forward) with the belts/drives on the smog pump.

That is the most insane thing I've ever read. Are you seriously suggesting that an auto company intentionally designed their engine to have less power....... less horse power, less torque... and lower gas mileage... thus causing people to buy other brands that have more power and more gas mileage?

I think you don't know what you are talking about. In nearly all gas engines, there is a thin ring of unburnt fuel that escapes the cylinder after combustion. The reason is the much cooler surface of the cylinder wall, hinders the burning process. The surface I'm speaking of, is not the cylinder head (top), or the piston head (bottom) but the cylinder walls the way around. This is why most engine designs minimize this area.

I can't remember why this is. It's either that the cooler temps simply inhibits oxidizing, or that the fuel condenses on the cylinder wall because it's cooler, or some other reason I can't think of off hand. Regardless, this fuel is exhausted out, and must be burned, and that's what the catalytic converter does.

Now for your theory of the intentionally bad design to be true..... first, you are suggesting that millions of engine designers world wide, in every country, in ever culture, from the corporate engineer, to the back yard mechanic, all of the are all on the take from oil companies? Every single one?

And not a single intelligent designer the face of this Earth, not one since the 1860s, has come up with an engine that does not release some amount of un-burnt fuel.......... Because back in the 1860s, they were getting money from oil corporations?

And there hasn't been a single design of the 100% burn engine, anywhere? You are telling me design files for guns built on 3D printers is on Priates Bay, but no plans for the magic 100% burn engine?

I think you are nutz. I'd sure love to see proof that Ford is intentionally making bad engines. Or GM, or Chysler. And I don't mean they made an engine that was bad, but I want proof that they designed an engine, and spent money make it crappy. I want a memo "This engine is too fuel efficient and powerful. Lower the horse power, and cut the gas mileage on it. We want it to suck compared to our competitors"

You show me that memo, and I'll become a believer.

Are you really suggesting that VW engines were actually making great gas mileage and low emissions, but they intentionally spent millions redesigning it to suck, and then spent millions to hide it's suckage from regulators? And that's supposed to make them money how?

What color is the sky in your world? Are there fairies there?

 

[Andylusion]

Oh I'll give you they've improved with crawl control,traction control and air bags and the like,but the fact is the same guy today working the same job I did in 98 couldnt afford to purchase a truck with the same capabilities offroad as the 98.

But if Ford hired that guy and 10 of his buddies to replace just one of their robots on the assembly line, then yeah, he could afford to buy a new Ford truck.

Um..... no...... because the cost of the truck would go up. Yeah you can hire a dozen people, but to pay them, you have to charge more for the product. And using 10 people would a ton of cost over one robot.

 

[Andylusion]

Oh I'll give you they've improved with crawl control,traction control and air bags and the like,but the fact is the same guy today working the same job I did in 98 couldnt afford to purchase a truck with the same capabilities offroad as the 98.

But if Ford hired that guy and 10 of his buddies to replace just one of their robots on the assembly line, then yeah, he could afford to buy a new Ford truck.

Sure but getting the auto industry to play along is going to be kinda tough.

Since when does something being tough prohibit the effort to overcome it?

Well.... they tried it with GM and Chrysler. Did it work? Or did they go bankrupt, and lay of tens of thousands?

But hey, it could work this time! Let's try it again!

 

[Andylusion]

If ya managed to pull it off unions would be forever grateful...

Well unions are obsolete if there are no jobs and fierce competition with foreign workers for the lowest pay possible. Don't have much leverage for any type of union under those conditions. I'm talking about emergency measures to simply stop the American economic hemorrhaging. Get the jobs here, convince the 1% that's in their interest (people can't buy stuff without income), then worry about unions if you have to. We have a serious unemployment/entitlement problem.. We have now two or three generations having grown up with no hope and just settling down to live off the dole. And they're not the ones to blame. The problem was created by those who withdrew their hope of the old American adage that if you get a good education and work hard, it will matter. When people see all that colossal effort and debt not mattering, they get apathetic in an endemic way, really fast..

...will we raise a 3rd or 4th generation to live off the dole? Or will we create conditions where they feel like if they do work hard it will matter? My experience with folks is that they like to work. It gives them a sense of accomplishment. It gets the blood moving. They feel better mentally and physically. It gives them a social exposure on a daily basis...also good for the soul. And, they get to bring home money to pay their own bills. Win win win... Why can't we see this is the root of the issue?

Right, but GM and Chrysler were losing to domestic competition. Toyota and Honda both build in the US, with US labor. The Union companies still went bankrupt. The non-union companies didn't.

So what's your excuse for the Unions now?