Zone1 Too Bad That God Promised No More Great Floods

[ding]

Curiosity. Is that sufficient?

No. It's not. Mainly because it's a lie. If you state your honest intentions I'd be glad to explain it to you.

 

[ding]

God sent a messenger to Mohammed with his message. God sent an angel to Joseph Smith with his message. Are those not 'revealed' religions?

They are all offshoots of Judaism. Try a religion that isn't.

 

[ding]

It is hardly surprising that all men are similar so they create similar moral religions but each has a different view of the one God.

Do they though? It's not surprising that all religions teach values, virtue and civility because God provides reality to everywhere and everyone at all times. God is every extant attribute of reality. As such God is logic and standards (i.e. morals) exist for logical reasons. It's not because men are similar it's that logic is universal.

 

[The Original Tree]

I'm not sure I agree but I have no doubt that Jesus existed and was crucified.


None of the Prophets expected their messiah to be hung on a tree. They expected he'd be recognized as a great spiritual leader of the Jews or military leader that would bring freedom to the Jews.


I don't believe either Tacitus and Josephus both had any direct knowledge of Jesusl


By that measure the Kamikaze pilots proved the Emporer was divine.


Some chose to die but some chose to live.

It's not true at all when you say that none of the prophets expected Jesus to die for the sins of Israel and that of the whole world.

Isaiah 52:13-53:12

“See, my servant will act wisely;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
Just as there were many who were appalled at him—
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness—
so he will sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.
Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.” —Isaiah 52:13-53:12

Also read John 12 who commented on The Pharisees and Saducees who not only wanted to kill Jesus but also wanted to kill Lazurus too. Many of the people including Religious Leaders recognized Jesus as The Messiah and Believed but because of their fear of The Saducees and Pharisees and their close relationship with The Roman Empire, they feared to say so publicly.

It was also foretold that He would be rejected and that The Jews would be blinded because of this until the Time of Jacob's Trouble. This is why it was said the Jesus was The Cornerstone whom the builders rejected.


Psalm 118
Give Thanks to the LORD, for He is Good
…21I will give You thanks, for You have answered me, and You have become my salvation. 22The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. 23This is from the LORD, and it is marvelous in our eyes.…

Cross Reference
Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes'?

Also, Moses in The Wilderness was told to make an image of a serpent on a pole when The Israelites were being cursed by venomous serpents and they were told that they had to "look upon the despised thing to be saved".

NUMBERS 21
The Bronze Serpent
…7Then the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned by speaking against the LORD and against you. Intercede with the LORD so He will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses interceded for the people. 8Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.” 9So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze snake, he would live.…



Cross References
John 3:14
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,


JOHN 12
1Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

2There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

3Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.

4Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,

5Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?

6This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

7Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.

8For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.

9Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.

10But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;

11Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.

12On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

14And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

15Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

16These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

17The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record.

18For this cause the people also met him, for that they heard that he had done this miracle.

19The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

20And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:

21The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.

22Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.

23And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

27Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

28Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

29The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

30Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33This he said, signifying what death he should die.

34The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

35Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

36While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

42Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

43For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

44Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Just a few examples. No point though in trying to make the blind see. Only God can do that if the heart is willing to seek the truth. I could go on and on about Jesus in the Old Testament such as when Eve was promised that one of her descendents would be salavation for humanity called the Proto Gospel when it was said the Serpent would bruise His heal, but He will crush it's head.

Or the picture of Abraham who's faith was tested when God asked him to offer His only son as a sacrifice, and when his son who was obedient to his father asked "where is the sacrfice?" Abraham replied, "God will provide the sacrifice"

Then a Ram appeared with it's head stuck in a thicket, allegorically a crown of thorns.
God provided the sacrifice then, and He sent His only Son Later on the exact day of the 69th week year as spoken of in Daniel to provide the final and eternal sacrifice.

 

[alang1216]

Judaism, Christianity and Islam are all based on God revealing himself to man. Those three religions are all based on the same revelation. Christianity takes it one step further as Christians believe God chose to be born into this world to suffer death and defeat death to reconcile justice with mercy.

Islam was revealed after Christianity and their view of Jesus is very different from yours. Why is that?

Your preoccupation with disproving God because all religions don't believe the same thing is dumb. Try looking for God outside of religion. Then the religions will make more sense.

How would one go about that? It sounds like an impossibility since every time people try to do that they come away with a very different idea of God, in fact they generally find paganism, like the Hindus and Aztecs did.

 

[alang1216]

Do they though? It's not surprising that all religions teach values, virtue and civility because God provides reality to everywhere and everyone at all times. God is every extant attribute of reality. As such God is logic and standards (i.e. morals) exist for logical reasons. It's not because men are similar it's that logic is universal.

If there is only one God, why was paganism the rule rather than the exception until relatively recently?

 

[alang1216]

The question becomes, Do some have morals beyond what is necessary? What purpose is served by having unnecessary morals? Sometimes it appears that those with fewer or weaker morals are determined to bring down the higher morals of others.

Seems rather judgmental. Are there people with "fewer or weaker morals" or just people with morals that differ from yours?

 

[alang1216]

Of course you do. That's why you can't let go of your belief that you are more than the sum of your parts. You recoil that atheism proceeds on the basis that the needs of individuals and society in general do not go beyond the satisfaction of material needs and primitive instincts. I can only assume that you are so unhappy with your life that you want everyone else to be as miserable as you. Which is why you continue to argue about something you don't believe exists. Atheists who accept that they are just matter and love is nothing more than an elctro-chemical response don't waste their time arguing about things they don't believe in. I know. I have three sisters who are atheists and they have no desire to discuss the existence of God because they are at peace with their choice. You aren't.

How could one person be so wrong? It seems that you are unable to accept that I'm perfectly happy knowing I'm a physical being with a fixed lifetime. I've accepted that this is it, there are no more lives after this one. Sorry to disappoint you.

 

[alang1216]

All you want to discuss is religion. You shouldn't care about religion at all. But instead you make ignorant theological arguments that serve absolutely no purpose at all.

Religion remains a large part of our cultural history and a fascinating subject to study.

 

[ding]

Islam was revealed after Christianity and their view of Jesus is very different from yours. Why is that?

I couldn't care less.

 

[ding]

How would one go about that? It sounds like an impossibility since every time people try to do that they come away with a very different idea of God, in fact they generally find paganism, like the Hindus and Aztecs did.

I couldn't care less how you go about it.

 

[ding]

If there is only one God, why was paganism the rule rather than the exception until relatively recently?

And this matters why?

 

[ding]

How could one person be so wrong? It seems that you are unable to accept that I'm perfectly happy knowing I'm a physical being with a fixed lifetime. I've accepted that this is it, there are no more lives after this one. Sorry to disappoint you.

You were the one who recoiled at being the sum of your parts.

 

[ding]

Religion remains a large part of our cultural history and a fascinating subject to study.

Yes, but that's not why you are here or what you are doing.

 

[The Original Tree]

Islam was revealed after Christianity and their view of Jesus is very different from yours. Why is that?


How would one go about that? It sounds like an impossibility since every time people try to do that they come away with a very different idea of God, in fact they generally find paganism, like the Hindus and Aztecs did.

Because Islam is a counterfeit religion. The Last Revelation of God was written by John in The Book of Revelation.

When Jesus said "It is finished" it was finished. We are not to add a single word to scripture after The Book of Revelation.

Islam also denies Christ as Messiah.

1 John 2:22-23
Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son. Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father also.

13 Bible verses about Denying Christ

A topical Bible which shows the most relevant Bible verse for each topic

bible.knowing-jesus.com

 

[Meriweather]

Seems rather judgmental. Are there people with "fewer or weaker morals" or just people with morals that differ from yours?

I was speaking of people in Biblical times, specifically those of Jews and Romans. But if you wish to bring it up to modern times, same thing, except I am speaking of nations in general, not people personally.

It's basic scientific method, to which I thought you might relate. What do we observe? What is the question? Form the hypothesis. Experiment. Record results. As you should be aware, the scientific method requires more than a mere thee and one other.

I prefer not to make things personal. If you don't mind.

 

[alang1216]

No, you actually said you have evidence that proves God doesn't exist.

I doubt that is true. I may have said I have no evidence that God exists but that is not the same thing.

Why do you care what Christianity teaches? You don't believe any of it. Which is why your arguments and theology are so screwed up.

I'm interested in the historical and social information within the Bible. The theology there is of less interest.

 

[ding]

I doubt that is true. I may have said I have no evidence that God exists but that is not the same thing.

You did say it. It was in the thread about St. Paul. I remember because you ran away after I called you out on it.

 

[ding]

I'm interested in the historical and social information within the Bible. The theology there is of less interest.

No. You aren't. You are insecure in your beliefs.

 

[surada]

It's not true at all when you say that none of the prophets expected Jesus to die for the sins of Israel and that of the whole world.

Isaiah 52:13-53:12

“See, my servant will act wisely;
he will be raised and lifted up and highly exalted.
Just as there were many who were appalled at him—
his appearance was so disfigured beyond that of any human being
and his form marred beyond human likeness—
so he will sprinkle many nations,
and kings will shut their mouths because of him.
For what they were not told, they will see,
and what they have not heard, they will understand.
Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?
He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.
Like one from whom people hide their faces
he was despised, and we held him in low esteem.
Surely he took up our pain
and bore our suffering,
yet we considered him punished by God,
stricken by him, and afflicted.
But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was on him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before its shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
Yet who of his generation protested?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was punished.
He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.
After he has suffered,
he will see the light of life and be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.” —Isaiah 52:13-53:12

Also read John 12 who commented on The Pharisees and Saducees who not only wanted to kill Jesus but also wanted to kill Lazurus too. Many of the people including Religious Leaders recognized Jesus as The Messiah and Believed but because of their fear of The Saducees and Pharisees and their close relationship with The Roman Empire, they feared to say so publicly.

It was also foretold that He would be rejected and that The Jews would be blinded because of this until the Time of Jacob's Trouble. This is why it was said the Jesus was The Cornerstone whom the builders rejected.


Psalm 118
Give Thanks to the LORD, for He is Good
…21I will give You thanks, for You have answered me, and You have become my salvation. 22The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. 23This is from the LORD, and it is marvelous in our eyes.…

Cross Reference
Matthew 21:42
Jesus said to them, "Have you never read in the Scriptures: 'The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes'?

Also, Moses in The Wilderness was told to make an image of a serpent on a pole when The Israelites were being cursed by venomous serpents and they were told that they had to "look upon the despised thing to be saved".

NUMBERS 21
The Bronze Serpent
…7Then the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned by speaking against the LORD and against you. Intercede with the LORD so He will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses interceded for the people. 8Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent and mount it on a pole. When anyone who is bitten looks at it, he will live.” 9So Moses made a bronze snake and mounted it on a pole. If anyone who was bitten looked at the bronze snake, he would live.…



Cross References
John 3:14
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up,


JOHN 12
1Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.

2There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.

3Then took Mary a pound of ointment of spikenard, very costly, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odour of the ointment.

4Then saith one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, which should betray him,

5Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred pence, and given to the poor?

6This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

7Then said Jesus, Let her alone: against the day of my burying hath she kept this.

8For the poor always ye have with you; but me ye have not always.

9Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.

10But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;

11Because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus.

12On the next day much people that were come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem,

13Took branches of palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna: Blessed is the King of Israel that cometh in the name of the Lord.

14And Jesus, when he had found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written,

15Fear not, daughter of Sion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt.

16These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him.

17The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record.

18For this cause the people also met him, for that they heard that he had done this miracle.

19The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.

20And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:

21The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.

22Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.

23And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.

24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

27Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.

28Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again.

29The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him.

30Jesus answered and said, This voice came not because of me, but for your sakes.

31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

33This he said, signifying what death he should die.

34The people answered him, We have heard out of the law that Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man?

35Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

36While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

37But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:

38That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?

39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,

40He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

42Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

43For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

44Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.

45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.

46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

Just a few examples. No point though in trying to make the blind see. Only God can do that if the heart is willing to seek the truth. I could go on and on about Jesus in the Old Testament such as when Eve was promised that one of her descendents would be salavation for humanity called the Proto Gospel when it was said the Serpent would bruise His heal, but He will crush it's head.

Or the picture of Abraham who's faith was tested when God asked him to offer His only son as a sacrifice, and when his son who was obedient to his father asked "where is the sacrfice?" Abraham replied, "God will provide the sacrifice"

Then a Ram appeared with it's head stuck in a thicket, allegorically a crown of thorns.
God provided the sacrifice then, and He sent His only Son Later on the exact day of the 69th week year as spoken of in Daniel to provide the final and eternal sacrifice.

Israel is the servant in Isaiah not Jesus.